Combat Rules....my thoughts after one read through....

[Supplement Four]

The only thing that makes me curious: why is a standard combat round roughly a minute long?

Because that's how it's defined in T5.

See my sig for a method of using shorter combat rounds.

Now I imagine the guy in your examples with his standard pistol. Either he shoots during the combat round or he moves. That really does not "feel" right to me, because in ranged combat you don't have such things like attacking, blocking, moving, avoiding blows, testing the skills of your enemy etc..

Exactly. That's why many people have a problem with no multi-targeting.

Are there optional rules available changing the term of a combat round?

Not in T5. Not unless the Ref makes something up.

Or other optinal rules which would allow you to modify the actions available during a combat round?

See my sig for a House Rule on multi-targeting.

 

[Ackehece]

wait wait wait....

when did they make it clear that 1D of bullet hits was not 1D dice of damage?
that is you rolled a 4 on the hit and then rolled 4d damage?

a 1d body pistol would then do anywhere from 1-36 points of damage.


1 round of combat in T5 could be 1sec or 10 mins... S4 you keep harping on 1 min . It is not that... it can be thought of as roughly one minute.
dive for cover, run while making your self hard to hit, reload, all are reasons rounds can be long or short, all are abstracted into the round.

 

[Shonner]

wait wait wait....

when did they make it clear that 1D of bullet was not 1D dice of damage?
that is you rolled a 4 on the hit and then rolled 4d damage?

a 1d body pistol would then do anywhere from 1-36 points of damage.

Who is "they"?

 

[Ackehece]

writing to earlier in the morning...
1d would be 1d of damage
3d would 3d of damage



***remembers now****

1Hit could be defined as 1d of damage


that is each hit according to the rules was 1d of damage


so see if you rolled 1d against armor 4 --- you roll a 6 which penetratess and blow the armor and then passes the 2 points through for 2 hits... roll 2d

 

[Shonner]

writing to earlier in the morning...
1d would be 1d of damage
3d would 3d of damage

do not know what I was thinking... please ignore

You're idea is actually onto something though. 1D of 1D damage. Don't know if I'd want it for each bullet though. Maybe for just gun use in general.

 

[Ackehece]

You're idea is actually onto something though. 1D of 1D damage. Don't know if I'd want it for each bullet though. Maybe for just gun use in general.

lol... I can tell I was not thinking clear this morning...
wow...1d=1d... amazing!


what i meant was that 1d could be 1d worth of hits and hits are 1d each. we had this conversation in the beta forums and it was never resolved... still doesn't look resolved.


but it does fix 1d snub pistols for putting done mooks

 

[Shonner]

lol... I can tell I was not thinking clear this morning...
wow...1d=1d... amazing!


what i meant was that 1d could be 1d worth of hits and hits are 1d each. we had this conversation in the beta forums and it was never resolved... still doesn't look resolved.


but it does fix 1d snub pistols for putting done mooks

Yeah. 1D6 is rolled. The resulting roll is a number N. Then ND6 is rolled to get total damage. This can be slop damage for mowing down minions.

 

[whulorigan]

what i meant was that 1d could be 1d worth of hits and hits are 1d each. we had this conversation in the beta forums and it was never resolved... still doesn't look resolved.

but it does fix 1d snub pistols for putting done mooks

A mediating position was suggested much earlier in this thread in which 1D was rolled for each level of damage severity (see p.222). Severity is primarily used for Medical Skill purposes, but if used for determining number of dice of damage, it would generate a range somewhere in between dice of damage, and "dice of dice" of damage.

So if damage severity of bullet-1 is "hits/2", it would generate a severity of 1-3. Roll 1-3 dice of damage, under this paradigm. This would somewhat limit the amount of extreme damage for more powerful weapons under the "dice of dice" of damage idea. Bullet-4 would do 4-24 hits (averaging 14 on a bell-curve). Severity for bullet = hits/2, so the severity range would be 2-12, averaging 7 on the bell curve, for 7 dice of damage on average (rather than 14 dice average). Note also that in this system, armor reduces "hits" (i.e. NOT points of damage - severity is determined after the number of penetrating hits).

Note that this is not an official rule interpretation at this point, and there has been some debate over it earlier in the thread.

Also, if using this, as a house rule I would suggest enacting "overpenetration" rules, so that bullets (and similar wepaons) have a "cap" on the number of dice of damage they do after penetration and severity is calculated, representing the bullet passing clean thru and not dumping all of its energy into the target.


I believe it is what Licheking is using in his campaign, if I am not mistaken.

 

[Licheking]

yup thats right, and it appears to be working just fine. If anything the system can be just a little too lethal, and I'm toying with the idea of dropping the rule that all damage from the first hit in combat has to applied to 1 attribute. This is leaving PC's and npc's unconscious with most weapons in the first round of combat.

 

[Ackehece]

so... no clarification has ever been made between a hit being 1 point of damage or 1 die of damage...

well like I said 1 hit = 1 die really fixes those snub revolvers

 

[whulorigan]

yup thats right, and it appears to be working just fine. If anything the system can be just a little too lethal, and I'm toying with the idea of dropping the rule that all damage from the first hit in combat has to applied to 1 attribute. This is leaving PC's and npc's unconscious with most weapons in the first round of combat.

Do you use an overpenetration rule, to cap certain damage types (like bullet) so that no bullet does more than (say) 3D after penetrating armor and defenses? A similar idea was used in T4, in which the armor/injury rules bear a certain resemblance to the system described above.

 

[Licheking]

Yes and no. Because i link the Effects Roll to the Severity table the maximum damage any weapon can do to a person is Severity 6 (6D of damage). Whatever damage is left over is then over penetration which if the situation warrants i allow to go on through to another target, especially aboard ships and vehicles.

So for example a Bullet-3 weapon would roll 3D gets 11, looking at the injuries chart we see that the Hits are Halved to find Severity giving us 5 this is then applied as 5D to the victim.

If the bullet-3 had rolled 18, then 12 damage would convert to Severity 6, and the other 6 points could go on to damage something/one else. Obviously this is assuming no armour and this is only my interpretation of the rules. But so far i have been running T5 like this for several months and it is working fine, lethal but fine.

I have said before that i use a 6 second combat round, and use movement and range bands like MT but otherwise its all T5.

 

[Licheking]

so... no clarification has ever been made between a hit being 1 point of damage or 1 die of damage...

well like I said 1 hit = 1 die really fixes those snub revolvers

It has been discussed in a few other areas, Re-Entry/Boost to name one, and its generally thought that 1 hit is 1 point of damage, so 2000 friction hits from re-entry is 2000 points of damage not 2000D of damage.

 

[Ackehece]

It has been discussed in a few other areas, Re-Entry/Boost to name one, and its generally thought that 1 hit is 1 point of damage, so 2000 friction hits from re-entry is 2000 points of damage not 2000D of damage.

but still not plain in the general combat rules, you are correct though that consistency should be assumed... 2000 or 2000d of damage would suck either way :rofl: not saying I am right at all just this was never fully resolved .

I view the 1 Hit as 1D idea of damage as a "Hail of Bullets Phenomenon"
basically since it is assumed that you run through a regular magazine in 3 rounds and that the rounds are abstracted to 1 min, yes yes ... 1 sec to 10 mins, you basically use 1/3 of the ammunition even with a bolt action or revolver each round. (aimed and precise) and the damage is a result of the number of (1d hits suffered} so you actually fire like 5 or 6 pistol bullets aimed in a round and deal 1d of hits... each at 1d of damage (this also explains faster weapons having higher Ds of damage or less Ds if small ammo capacity - does not extrapolate well to single shot elephant guns)
reloading is abstracted into the round, if you have reloads you use them otherwise the gm can say.... oops out of ammo.

sure it is deadly - but it sure keeps the combat down unless the players are well and truly prepared and have the drop in their enemies...
surrender or die is the order of the game if it is the other way around. :smirk:


of course this interpretation can be used with your severity house rule and it would still make sense...

 

[whulorigan]

sure it is deadly - but it sure keeps the combat down unless the players are well and truly prepared and have the drop in their enemies...
surrender or die is the order of the game if it is the other way around. :smirk:

But so far i have been running T5 like this for several months and it is working fine, lethal but fine.

Makes characters take the idea of armor seriously. If you don't have armor appropriate to the situation, don't get in a firefight.

 

[Ackehece]

It has been discussed in a few other areas, Re-Entry/Boost to name one, and its generally thought that 1 hit is 1 point of damage, so 2000 friction hits from re-entry is 2000 points of damage not 2000D of damage.

Makes characters take the idea of armor seriously. If you don't have armor appropriate to the situation, don't get in a firefight.

Heck yeah! any armor = better than wearing a casket

 

[Ackehece]

hmm must have had multi quote on...

 

[Epee]

I get the general impression that stage effects, once they are beyond "standard" tend to reflect projectile design more than they do firearm design. Sure, the 1911 is still a viable choice as a handgun. Compared to later designs it suffers in the magazine capacity, burden and ease of use (manual safety). But a 1911 at tech level 8 does more damage than a 1911 at tech 4 because of bullet design and, perhaps, a 1911 built with modern technology is able to reliably handle those bullet designs.

At tech level 4 your choice in bullets was roundnose lead, roundnose jacketed and lead semi-wadcutter (which wouldn't feed in a stock 1911). Today you can reliably feed all of the above plus have hollowpoints and softpoints of various types, armor piercing, frangiable bullets, ballistically capped bullets, and monolithic hollowpoints.