Combat in SPAAAAACE

[cym0k]

I couldn't help the thread title....

I am looking at the key aspects of the game beyond building and making things and I have go to starship combat.

SMART!

So we check our sensors, fire the missiles, fire other weapons, move our ships and sort out the damage. In a nutshell. How abstracted is it all? If I fire a missile in Turn 1 of combat, do I need to calculate the range (from attack in turn = range?) and how many turns later it arrives, or is it hand-waved to the following turn? I think I just answered that myself.

Now, the table at the bottom of p.412, and p.413 and the big one on p.415.

Starting with the p.412 table...
1 - Missile fire R= 5 - 17. Is this The initial range from which the missile is/was fired? Or is it a reference for when a missile is resolved?

2 - S= B - 12. Space Range bands? I think this is from p.405. And definitions of space range are on p.414.

It is all a bit opaque at the moment. If there is a thread or webpage that breaks it down, can you point me at it while I work my way through on my own. If I answer my own questions I will update the thread with my findings.

 

[NoTail]

I too am just starting to get a handle on space combat, so I can't be much help. But I do have a couple questions of my own: does anyone know how many missiles a salvo rack is supposed to fire at once? How many size 3 missiles can fit in a one ton magazine?

 

[Licheking]

Unfortunately T5 doesn't keep track of ammunition in any form so you don't need to keep track if you don't want too.

I on the other hand like ammunition tracking and have used the TL of the weapon to determine how many shots you may have with that weapon, e.g. TL-A Missile launcher can have 10 shots.

For a more detailed look we know that starship missiles are Size-5 the same size as a human who is 72 liters. If we round the 72 liters to 100 for packing we would have 10 in a kiloliter. 1 displacement ton is 13.5 kiloliters if we say lose the 3.5 kiloliters for automated loading and sorting machinery we would have 10 kiloliters left giving us 100 missiles per ton devoted to missile storage.

The Salvo Rack fires Size-3 missiles/rockets, Size-3 is 200mm longest dimension so 20cm, assuming a normal 10:1 needle like shape this would make them 20cm x 2cm x 2cm or 80cm^3 or 80ml which is 0.08 liters lets make that 0.1 liters which means we could have 1000 Size-3 missiles/ton. Which would imply that 1000 Size-3 missiles have the same damage capability of 1 Size-5 missile! Although i personally use the idea that the salvo Rack fires 100 Size-3 rockets/missiles upon each firing and use the 1000 just for ammunition bins to restock the rack.

 

[NoTail]

That answers the ammo question, but I'm still not clear how many missiles a salvo rack launches for damage purposes. Like, we know one explosive size 3 missile does 3d damage from the chart on pg. 393. So if in a turn I launch a salvo of them from a salvo rack, and next turn they hit, do I just treat it like one missile and do 3d damage? Or do I say "that was a salvo of n missiles, they inflict n3d damage." And if it is the latter, what number is "n?"

If it is only 3d damage, that seems like an awful lot of space (50 tons!) for a weapon that does less damage than a standard missile. I mean, for the same space requirement you could put in a KK launcher and do dozens of dice in damage a hit.

 

[Reban]

Space weapons do a number of hits based on their Mount size. A Salvo Rack has a minimum size of Bay and a Bay has 20D Hits.

So I'd say a salvo of missiles from a bay will do 20D Hits in the round that they hit.

The number of hits should probably denote the number of Size 3 missile that actually strike the target.

Once you know how many have "Hit" or struck you can resolve the "Effect" of each missile which as you mention for a Size 3 Explosive Missile is 3D of Penetration damage.


Incidentally 20x6= 120 missiles in a salvo from a 50 ton bay. Size 3 is 20 to 70cm long, so probably the closest real world example is the Hydra rocket pod you see carried on most attack helicopter and they probably get used in a similar way.

 

[esampson]

Space weapons do a number of hits based on their Mount size. A Salvo Rack has a minimum size of Bay and a Bay has 20D Hits. . .

Actually I believe that is only true for energy weapons. Damage for missiles vary according to both the size and the type (Kinetic, EMP, Nuke, Explosive, etc.) of the missile as according to the chart on pg. 393.

 

[Reban]

Actually I believe that is only true for energy weapons. Damage for missiles vary according to both the size and the type (Kinetic, EMP, Nuke, Explosive, etc.) of the missile as according to the chart on pg. 393.

Damage comes after Hits. Space Combat specifically says: "Missiles which survive AM fire are resolved for target damage in Step T." on p406.

Step T says: "All weapons which have survived anti-weapon fire are resolved for their effects on the target."

And

2. Hits inflicted by an Attack are determined by the Weapon Mount (a Single Turret inflicts 1D Hits; a Main-Weapon inflicts 100D Hits). Roll the required dice for the total number of hits.

Hits must Penetrate Armor before they can inflict Damage. Compare the Armor Types and values for the Compartment and destroy (mark off) Armor in layers until Hits are exhausted.

If Hits remain after all armor for the compartment has been destroyed, inflict them on the Compartment.

The chart you're looking at on p393 lists Damage Effects (in PEN, ME and EMP) not Hits. [EDIT] It does say "Hits inflicted are in D. For example, Pen-1 inflicts 1D Hits"


I agree this is a little odd for firing Size 5 Missiles. I don't like the idea of firing six Size 5 Missiles from a 1ton Turret and seeing how many hit. I think the intent rather than the RAW is that you choose how many missiles you fire, but for the Salvo rack I think using the Hits listed for the Mount works best. Otherwise you have a 50 ton bay firing a salvo that appears to have just 3D or 18 missiles in it. Equally it seems to suggest that a Slug Thrower fires just 6 slugs in an attack.

 

[Licheking]

I thought that the table on 393 was only used in personal combat to resolve the effects of space weapon on vehicles or personnel. The Mounts Hits is always used in space combat where its largely irrelevant how many missiles are fired by the rack since its resolved as one attack.

 

[Reban]

I thought that the table on 393 was only used in personal combat to resolve the effects of space weapon on vehicles or personnel. The Mounts Hits is always used in space combat where its largely irrelevant how many missiles are fired by the rack since its resolved as one attack.

That would be my take on it too as it neatly sidesteps the need to track the number of missiles fired. The p393 table seems more useful for Personal Combat and attacking ground targets with Massive Explosion Damage.

If I'm running a pure Space Combat scenario I'll use Mount Hits. If I'm rolling a missile attack that's part of the storyline and needs drama and specific results I'll use the Hits detailed on p393.

 

[esampson]

I thought that the table on 393 was only used in personal combat to resolve the effects of space weapon on vehicles or personnel. The Mounts Hits is always used in space combat where its largely irrelevant how many missiles are fired by the rack since its resolved as one attack.

That would mean that many of the missiles are doing far to little damage. A five foot tall missile only does 3 dice of damage.

Yes, as it stands the missiles do more damage than things such as equivalent turrets, but considering that the missiles take longer to reach their target and are more vulnerable to being shot down that's not unbalanced, IMO.

 

[pendragonman]

Too little damage?

In Beta we played out several space combats with the rules as written. We found that missiles, unmodified in any way beyond the rules as written, were already the Queen of Combat.

Before you think about modding the rules, play a few out.

 

[esampson]

In Beta we played out several space combats with the rules as written. We found that missiles, unmodified in any way beyond the rules as written, were already the Queen of Combat.

Before you think about modding the rules, play a few out.

Not sure what modding you are referring to. Considering pg. 393 to be doing personal damage? Considering pg. 393 to be ship damage? Having missile damage based on the mount? None of those are really modifications of the rules. They are all attempts to figure out what the rules are trying to say.

When you did your beta what was your interpretation? And how 'Queenly' were the missiles? Simply the best choice or were they ridiculously over powered? Why were they so much more powerful? Too hard to shoot down? Too much damage? Were the missiles explosive or nuclear?

 

[Reban]

That would mean that many of the missiles are doing far to little damage. A five foot tall missile only does 3 dice of damage.
.

I think ship Weapons used in Personal Combat get x10 the Effect in the same way that Ship armor is AVx10 for Personal Combat. So a Size 3 Explosive Missile does 3D x10 Pen Damage. Potentially that can defeat AV179 on a vehicle or ground installation.


On a different note.

I've been re-reading p415 in the Space Combat chapter which sets out the process for determining hits and damage in a slightly easier to follow way. With the RAW most missiles are equivalent to turrets and barbettes with the advantage of range. Massive Explosion warheads seem to be the way to go for ship killing.

 

[esampson]

I think ship Weapons used in Personal Combat get x10 the Effect in the same way that Ship armor is AVx10 for Personal Combat. So a Size 3 Explosive Missile does 3D x10 Pen Damage. Potentially that can defeat AV179 on a vehicle or ground installation.


On a different note.

I've been re-reading p415 in the Space Combat chapter which sets out the process for determining hits and damage in a slightly easier to follow way. With the RAW most missiles are equivalent to turrets and barbettes with the advantage of range. Massive Explosion warheads seem to be the way to go for ship killing.

But then we are back to the Pen-3 being regular ship damage, unless someone wants to rule that the missile does mount damage to ships but starship combat damage x 10 for personal combat (at which point is seems like the wiser move would have been to list it simply as personal combat damage with the x10 already factored in).

That seems a bit clunky.

Missiles do seem to be better than turrets or barbettes on several levels. A T3 laser would do 3 hits while I would assume that a T3 Missile turret could launch 3 missiles capable of inflicting 3x3 hits (I'm assuming that each missile needs to resolve separately against armor which is why I'm not just listing it as 9 hits). Of course there are downsides as well since they take longer to reach their target and can be shot down (energy weapons can be blocked as well, but that requires a sandcaster which can't be used offensively).

Massive Explosion missiles are way more punishing than most other weaponry, but they also are not capable of being launched from turrets. It's not clear what kind of launcher they do require (at least not to me). Similarly it isn't clear to me what the advantage of larger mounts are (one assumes they can fire larger missiles but I can't find anything saying something such as 'a bay can fire a size 6 missile'.

 

[Licheking]

your missing the point it doesn't matter what weapon is in a mount that just determines the range, the mount does the damage. A beam laser in a T3 mount does 3D but so does a missile in a T3 turret. Unless you start to fiddle with the weapons that is how they work as written. I haven't found anywhere that tells you how to implement or use page 393 in space combat, but it does work with personal combat as written.

 

[Reban]

But then we are back to the Pen-3 being regular ship damage, unless someone wants to rule that the missile does mount damage to ships but starship combat damage x 10 for personal combat (at which point is seems like the wiser move would have been to list it simply as personal combat damage with the x10 already factored in).

That seems a bit clunky.

I think the more basic question is: "Why is PEN and EMP included at all?". If you look at the table on p415 PEN and EMP are separated out. To me this is starting to suggest that PEN and EMP equal to Missile Size are Personal Combat ratings. We need clarification for this one.

I would assume that a T3 Missile turret could launch 3 missiles capable of inflicting 3x3 hits (I'm assuming that each missile needs to resolve separately against armor which is why I'm not just listing it as 9 hits).

Not a criticism, but it is an assumption to say a T3 can launch 3 missile as we are not told anything about the capacity of any mount for missiles. I do agree that each missile should be resolved separately.

Massive Explosion missiles are way more punishing than most other weaponry, but they also are not capable of being launched from turrets. It's not clear what kind of launcher they do require (at least not to me). Similarly it isn't clear to me what the advantage of larger mounts are (one assumes they can fire larger missiles but I can't find anything saying something such as 'a bay can fire a size 6 missile'.

p342 gives the minimum Mount sizes. Any Missile Size 5 and up can cause Massive Explosion. Looking at both I think the missile sizes are less interchangable than the seem. Size 6 "missiles" are all minimum size bay weapons such as Rail guns and KK Missile Launchers.

 

[esampson]

Well, no, it doesn't work with personal combat as written because a 2m tall missile does 3D of damage. You have to assume that the damage is scaled up for personal combat, which is completely fine. Not saying you're wrong to do that. I'm simply pointing out that you are not coming from a perspective of 'this is exactly what is written'.

However you can also assume that the line that all mounts determine damage is not completely correct. Given that the assumption is that you are suppose to multiply the chart on 393 by 10 (which is not stated) and that you would now have very different damage results for starship and personal combat damage that assumption seems no more warranted than the assumption that the statement that all damage is determined by the mount is in error (I wouldn't say it is less warranted, either. Part of the reason for these forums is to try and figure out what is meant when there are conflicting assumptions such as these).

 

[esampson]

I think the more basic question is: "Why is PEN and EMP included at all?". If you look at the table on p415 PEN and EMP are separated out. To me this is starting to suggest that PEN and EMP equal to Missile Size are Personal Combat ratings. We need clarification for this one.



Not a criticism, but it is an assumption to say a T3 can launch 3 missile as we are not told anything about the capacity of any mount for missiles. I do agree that each missile should be resolved separately.



p342 gives the minimum Mount sizes. Any Missile Size 5 and up can cause Massive Explosion. Looking at both I think the missile sizes are less interchangable than the seem. Size 6 "missiles" are all minimum size bay weapons such as Rail guns and KK Missile Launchers.

Whoops. I am corrected. You can equip a size-5 missile with a nuclear warhead and cause a massive explosion. I was also thinking about Size-3 missiles when I was talking about damage. A size 5 missile would actually do Pen-5, not Pen-3. However even 5 dice is too low for personal combat so while the number was wrong that doesn't really invalidate the argument.

Rail guns and KK launchers are at least bay sized weapons, yes, and they launch size 6 weapons, but the rules as they currently stand (and I'll admit I'm not happy with them and think they need some fixing) is that you can make a spinal mount class M missile launcher. Does that only fire a single size 5 missile? Then why does it do more damage (if we are using the ruling that damage is purely determined by mount size)? If they are larger missile or more missiles than it would be nice to know what those stats are so pg. 393 can be used correctly (even if only for handling personal combat damage).

Oh, I assume they are separated out because ships can have armor layers specialized against different forms of damage. If someone fires an explosive missile then it affects your armor differently than an EMP missile.

 

[esampson]

Oh, that's interesting.

On page 415 there is a chart of weapons where they say "hits based on Mount". Nearly none of the missile launchers are on that list. The exception is hybrid turrets (which one might assume is only meant to apply to the laser).

 

[Reban]

Whoops. I am corrected. You can equip a size-5 missile with a nuclear warhead and cause a massive explosion. I was also thinking about Size-3 missiles when I was talking about damage. A size 5 missile would actually do Pen-5, not Pen-3. However even 5 dice is too low for personal combat so while the number was wrong that doesn't really invalidate the argument.

The AA missile from p.227 does 5D Pen (as well a Blast and Frag) so Size 5 Missiles are not that far divorced from Personal Combat. A Size 5 Missile isn't really that big, only about as big as a modern air launched missile.

Rail guns and KK launchers are at least bay sized weapons, yes, and they launch size 6 weapons, but the rules as they currently stand (and I'll admit I'm not happy with them and think they need some fixing) is that you can make a spinal mount class M missile launcher. Does that only fire a single size 5 missile? Then why does it do more damage (if we are using the ruling that damage is purely determined by mount size)? If they are larger missile or more missiles than it would be nice to know what those stats are so pg. 393 can be used correctly (even if only for handling personal combat damage).

What I'm starting to think is that Missile Launchers only ever fire Size 5 Missiles, not Size 3 or Size 6. Initially reading the rules I had thought you could specify the size of missile your Mount fired but going through the Combat rules I think its more limited.