Cohorts and Followers

[Ben Harrison]

In D20 you have a feat called "Leadership" which allows you to gather cohorts and followers. IMTU I am planning on using this to represent the personal close followers of various NPCs.

The problem is that the rules in the DMG state your followers must be commoners, experts and/or warriors (cohorts can be of any class).

Now I can map equivalents for two out of three classes i.e. D20 Warriors = T20 Army (at first level)/Mercenaries(2nd and up) and D20 Experts = T20 Professionals.

The problem is "Commoners". Any suggestions on how to map them over to T20?

Thank you for your time

 

[jfwking]

Originally posted by BLH:
In D20 you have a feat called "Leadership" which allows you to gather cohorts and followers. IMTU I am planning on using this to represent the personal close followers of various NPCs.

The problem is that the rules in the DMG state your followers must be commoners, experts and/or warriors (cohorts can be of any class).

Now I can map equivalents for two out of three classes i.e. D20 Warriors = T20 Army (at first level)/Mercenaries(2nd and up) and D20 Experts = T20 Professionals.

The problem is "Commoners". Any suggestions on how to map them over to T20?

Thank you for your time

Don't bother trying to match them that closely, the nature of the Traveller universe is too far removed from a fantasy world.

Both should be created like normal characters to match the requirements of the character or NPC, Followers should be low level and cohorts should be up to 1 level under the leaders level.

The big difference between them that a follower is a paid worker/member of the crew etc. They have signed on for reward and will treat the boss as manager and reason they have a job. A cohort on the other hand while drawing a salary is there for personal reasons which make them loyal far beyond the monthly payslip.

For example with Leadership feat a character attracts 8 followers and a cohort. The followers become his loyal ships crew (navy/merchant/scout) lvlvs 1-3 and security/bodyguard (marine/army), the cohort is his first mate, a friend who grew up in the same town and who's life was saved by the character in a childhood acident.

When the drek hits the air recycler the regular crew will compare risk to paycheck and check moral, the loyal crew are the ones who hang in there until it gets realy bad and who are always ready to stand by the captain in danger and the cohort is the one who will ride the ship to its death beside the captain to buy time for the convoy to escape.

 

[Ben Harrison]

Originally posted by Captain Jonah:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BLH:
In D20 you have a feat called "Leadership" which allows you to gather cohorts and followers. IMTU I am planning on using this to represent the personal close followers of various NPCs.

The problem is that the rules in the DMG state your followers must be commoners, experts and/or warriors (cohorts can be of any class).

Now I can map equivalents for two out of three classes i.e. D20 Warriors = T20 Army (at first level)/Mercenaries(2nd and up) and D20 Experts = T20 Professionals.

The problem is "Commoners". Any suggestions on how to map them over to T20?

Thank you for your time

Don't bother trying to match them that closely, the nature of the Traveller universe is too far removed from a fantasy world.

Both should be created like normal characters to match the requirements of the character or NPC, Followers should be low level and cohorts should be up to 1 level under the leaders level.

The big difference between them that a follower is a paid worker/member of the crew etc. They have signed on for reward and will treat the boss as manager and reason they have a job. A cohort on the other hand while drawing a salary is there for personal reasons which make them loyal far beyond the monthly payslip.

For example with Leadership feat a character attracts 8 followers and a cohort. The followers become his loyal ships crew (navy/merchant/scout) lvlvs 1-3 and security/bodyguard (marine/army), the cohort is his first mate, a friend who grew up in the same town and who's life was saved by the character in a childhood acident.

When the drek hits the air recycler the regular crew will compare risk to paycheck and check moral, the loyal crew are the ones who hang in there until it gets realy bad and who are always ready to stand by the captain in danger and the cohort is the one who will ride the ship to its death beside the captain to buy time for the convoy to escape. </font>[/QUOTE]Good points, but I still feel a need to show the ordinary "Joe". You know, the one who runs the bakery shop on the nobles home world (that the noble is a silent partner for) or the loyal butler at one of the families estates. In D20 these could be represented by "commoner" or in the butlers case and expert. How to best do this with T20?

 

[BluWolf]

Quick response?

Use 1 of the "NPC" classes from D20 or a class from D20 modern.

I tend to have an attitude that the players are just a tinge better than the normal folks out there.

Use the same progression chart for the core classes but simply stick then with d6 for stamina, +1 BaB/4 levels, 4 skill points per level, 1 feat every, 5-6 levels. Call it a day.

 

[Whipsnade]

BLH wrote:

"In D20 you have a feat called "Leadership" which allows you to gather cohorts and followers."


Mr. BLH,

Oh my Ghods... A 'feat' that allows PCs and NPCs to gather minions... My mind drifts back to 1978 and those DnD munchkins who sat in our game with their three-ring binders full of magical equipment, bags of 'infinite holding', and hordes of followers enslaved by love potions or other devices. Blecch.

"The problem is "Commoners". Any suggestions on how to map them over to T20?"

Short answer: Ignore the 'Leadership' feat. It is an evolutionary throwback that belongs to d20's fantasy-munchkin roots and does not belong in T20's rules set. If an NPC needs another NPC, simply create one up to abilities needed by the game; i.e. give them as much skills and/or personality as minimally required. They can range from the cardboard cut-out at the conrols of the air/raft up to being a full fledged NPC in their own right.

This use of a 'feat' is akin to being born with webbed toes or a vestigal tail. It's an unfortunate accident that can easily be corrected by surgery at the time of birth. Perform a little elective surgery on this bit and excise it. As a GM, you're allowed. Look at Hunter's sig if you don't believe me.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Mythmere]

I agree with Larsen. D&D is a fantasy game in which the storyline lends itself to loyal followers and retainers. In any sci-fi adaptation, you have to decide whether it makes sense to import feats from other d20 games. If you're using T20 to duplicate Warhammer 40K, a leadership feat matches with the storyline. In the OTU, however, emphasis has always been more on the individual character than on the "party." Making a player's allies unable to separate themselves under game rules regardless of roleplaying events doesn't jibe with the "feel" of Traveller, where gritty reality in space is usually the objective. Star Wars? Leadership feat. It depends on the setting.

 

[jchurchill]

This use of a 'feat' is akin to being born with webbed toes or a vestigal tail. It's an unfortunate accident that can easily be corrected by surgery at the time of birth.
=============================================
Some of us might have webbed toes, you insensitive Non-PC [politically correct] bastard.

Everything else you said I agree with 100%.

 

[Whipsnade]

secretagent wrote:

"Some of us might have webbed toes, you insensitive Non-PC [politically correct] bastard."


Mr. Agent,

I still have my tail in a jar! And what a conversation piece it is!

"Everything else you said I agree with 100%."

Thanks and don't worry, agreeing with me is correctable by surgery too.

One major correction to my screed. As Mythmere sagely pointed out, the use of 'cohorts', 'followers', 'minions', and what have you, plus the 'feat ' (gack!) that allows you to gather and use them, is genre-specific sort of thing. If you're playing in a Warhamster (ahem) Warhammer setting, buy all means use it. Traveller maybe another matter.

It all depends on your game and whether you and yours are having fun. Everything else is a very distant second.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Mythmere]

As to the specific question of how to do commoners, you could do it with a D&D commoner (hp are stamina, Lb is con) for a low-tech world, or professionals on higher tech worlds. The sort of game-assigned minion you want to make available to your players is, like the use of the rule itself, pretty genre-specific. Once you start using tools from one system in another game system, it becomes GM's choice all the way across the board. Don't let the rules boss you, it should be the other way around. If the rules boss you, your players will boss you. If your players boss you, then you aren't playing an RPG, you're playing a wargame. And there are simpler, more efficient wargaming rules than T20.

Best of gaming!

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
I agree with Larsen. D&D is a fantasy game in which the storyline lends itself to loyal followers and retainers. In any sci-fi adaptation, you have to decide whether it makes sense to import feats from other d20 games. If you're using T20 to duplicate Warhammer 40K, a leadership feat matches with the storyline. In the OTU, however, emphasis has always been more on the individual character than on the "party." Making a player's allies unable to separate themselves under game rules regardless of roleplaying events doesn't jibe with the "feel" of Traveller, where gritty reality in space is usually the objective. Star Wars? Leadership feat. It depends on the setting.

I agree in general...but would emphasize tht setting doesn't necisarily mean game system. The use of a feat like Leadership needs to fit into the feel for the game world and how you are using it in your game.

For example, in this thread we've suggested that the Leadership feat doesn't fit in traveller's "gritty reality in space" setting. I can work with that. Almost simultaneously we comment on feudal loyalty and the sacrifices that are a part of a noble's feudal duty in the thread about what we would do if we were there when Strephon was assassinated. I would think the Leadership feat could fit quite well into a campaign framework that deals with that side of Traveller.

In my case, I'll typically allow the Leadership Feat if...

1) The player convinces me that it fits both the character and the campaign being played,
2) I know the player isn't going to abuse it too much and will play it out well, and
3) Having all of those 'loyal' NPCs running around won't break the campaign.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Gonna throw a wrench into this thing (cause evil is GOOD

)...

It is perfectly appropriate for a Vargr or an Aslan to have the Leadership feat. These represent loyal compatriots or clan member NPC's who will stay with the PC through thick and thin. Sort of the "friends who would hide in a swamp with you" kind of thing, to use a cliche'.

As to "how does this apply to Sci-Fi", lemme ask a question... In "Hammer's Slammers", wouldn't Joachim be a cohort of Alois Hammer?

Just putting it out there...

 

[jfwking]

Agree with the above comment, the Leadership feat is as relevant as you want it to be. Followers are those who join you for more than just the paycheck, cohorts are very loyal and will follow you into stupid or dangerous places (or adventures)

For any campaign with a large ships crew or mercenary platoon or for any game dealing with nobles the presence of loyal followers mixed in with the hirelings makes perfect sense.

The kind of games involving a free trader and 4 PCs though is not the place to use this feat.

 

[Whipsnade]

O'Flynn wrote:

"As to "how does this apply to Sci-Fi", lemme ask a question... In "Hammer's Slammers", wouldn't Joachim be a cohort of Alois Hammer?"


Mr. O'Flynn,

Yeah, a cohort the Colonel has assasinated immediately upon settling in as president of Friesland after the coup d'etat.

Steubing is a psychopathic killing machine whose unrequited love (physcial? emotional? platonic?) for Alois gives the Slammers just enough of a handle to control him with. He's a wet-work specialist who becomes extremely inconvenient once the Slammer's go 'legitimate.'

If things like Joachim fall into the d20 'cohort' catagory then the idea of 'cohorts' is little more than yet another bit of munchkin-fu d20 owes to its uber-munchkin forebearer; DnD.

"Oh, you needn't worry about those Imperial Marines in battledress chasing us. You haven't met my 'cohort' yet... Oh Joachim!"

"Oh, you needn't worry about those Orcs in plate armor chasing us. You haven't met my 'cohort' yet... Oh Joachim!"

Same old, same old. Bleccch.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Ben Harrison]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
BLH wrote:

"In D20 you have a feat called "Leadership" which allows you to gather cohorts and followers."


Mr. BLH,

Oh my Ghods... A 'feat' that allows PCs and NPCs to gather minions... My mind drifts back to 1978 and those DnD munchkins who sat in our game with their three-ring binders full of magical equipment, bags of 'infinite holding', and hordes of followers enslaved by love potions or other devices. Blecch.

So you don't like feat. Big deal. As the referee I have final say on what any player can recruit (and I plan to use the feat renamed, more accurately "Cohorts and Followers" for NPC's). You want your followers to all be carrying MPFG's/PGMP and powered armor? Sorry, the Marines confiscated the shipment before you took possession.


"The problem is "Commoners". Any suggestions on how to map them over to T20?"

Short answer: Ignore the 'Leadership' feat. It is an evolutionary throwback that belongs to d20's fantasy-munchkin roots and does not belong in T20's rules set.

Methinks you are a wee bit prejudicial.



If an NPC needs another NPC, simply create one up to abilities needed by the game; i.e. give them as much skills and/or personality as minimally required. They can range from the cardboard cut-out at the controls of the air/raft up to being a full fledged NPC in their own right.


I have a slight completest streak. Upon looking up the various methods I felt the Leadership/Cohorts and Followers feat satisfied the requirement.

Furthermore I just asked for some suggestions. Not an accusation of being a munchkin or supporting such things

This use of a 'feat' is akin to being born with webbed toes or a vestigal tail. It's an unfortunate accident that can easily be corrected by surgery at the time of birth. Perform a little elective surgery on this bit and excise it. As a GM, you're allowed. Look at Hunter's sig if you don't believe me.


Sincerely,
Larsen

Methinks you have had a bad experience and feel everyone will have the same experience. Such is not necessarily true. As such I beleive the above mentioned feat has a place.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Granted, Larsen, regarding your above comments.

I simply used that as an analogy. Others might include Narayan Singh as cohort of Athelstane King (from the "Peshwar Lancers") or Dr.Watson to Sherlock Holmes. Either way, the analogy holds true. Cohorts are exceptionally loyal followers/apprentices/best friends that will follow the character through nearly everything.

Followers are spear-carriers/loyal troops/contacts that will provide assistance or obedience to orders for pay or a favor returned.

 

[aravain]

I would run any cohorts under the following general guidelines:

1) Adds to the general game color, while adding only a little to the player's character's assets: acceptable

2) Adds too much power to a player character's assets or power: allow it to be decreased,eleminated, or subverted over time.

I always enjoy the added spice of NPCs controlled by a player ( you know what I mean!)when the player uses it not to advance the character, but the game dialogue! For those who do not understand, don't have followers!

I've always run (as a PC) any follower as both an asset and a liability; everyone else should,too.
It is really neat to see me (as my character) get broken up by the death of a low level cohort. Not that I try for that to happen, but like most of you(I hope), I try to make the people that follow me prosper. When I fail, both my character and I (yes, the actual me! ) go through a great scene thumping my chest and tearing my shirt!

It is only when someone tries to take advantage of the rules to tilt the game balance FAR toward themselves that I have a problem!

 

[Whipsnade]

BLH wrote:

"So you don't like feat. Big deal."


Mr. BLH,

Yup, I don't like it. I don't like the idea of 'feats' in a modern RPG or a nitty-gritty sci-fi RPG (unlike Star Wars forex). I think it is a left over bit from DnD, held onto across all the versions so that people wouldn't think the rules had changed too much.

"As the referee I have final say on what any player can recruit (and I plan to use the feat renamed, more accurately "Cohorts and Followers" for NPC's)."

Exactly. You are the GM, you can do what you want. You also are the fellow who asked for opinions at CotI regarding this feat and the idea of 'cohorts' and 'followers'. I gave you my opinion; it's a bit of left-over nonsense that runs the risk of adding a fantasy-munchkin style of play to your Traveller sessions. You are the GM, you can ignore that too.

"Methinks you are a wee bit prejudicial."

In the old, pre-civil rights meaning of the word yes. I am prejudiced against the idea of feats *in Traveller*. I'd use them in another genre; fantasy, or another style; Traveller as Lensmen, of game.

"Furthermore I just asked for some suggestions. Not an accusation of being a munchkin or supporting such things."

I did no such thing.

"Methinks you have had a bad experience and feel everyone will have the same experience. Such is not necessarily true."

I had a funny experience watching a group of people whose competitive urges squeezed all the fun out of what is supposed to be a game. We laughed at them, that's all.

"As such I beleive the above mentioned feat has a place."

And I do not. So what? You asked for opinions, you got mine, you can ignore it, and still have fun playing Traveller.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[BluWolf]

Larsen I'm intersted in why you think feats as a mechanic are at their core a bad thing in a Traveller setting?

There are a lot of feats I agree with you about maninly from other settings that just have no place in a paricular meileiu but do you think the mechanic itself is flawed?

Just curious.

 

[Whipsnade]

Ganidiirsi O'Flynn wrote:

"I simply used that (Joachim Steubing in 'Hammer's Slammers - LEW) as an analogy."


Mr. O'Flynn,

Sure, an analogy. Not a particularly accurate one, but an analogy nonetheless.

"Others might include Narayan Singh as cohort of Athelstane King (from the "Peshwar Lancers")..."

Who is assigned to King by the regiment and thus follows his commander into undercover work, as he has been ordered to do so.

"... or Dr.Watson to Sherlock Holmes."

Who leaves Holmes twice when he marries and does not participate in every case, just those few he wrote about.

"Either way, the analogy holds true."

In what way? How are those charecters similar to the real purpose behind the left-over DnD game artifact; providing the player with 1) control over additional skills via other bodies or 2) cannon fodder?

"Cohorts are exceptionally loyal followers/apprentices/best friends that will follow the character through nearly everything."

In other words a NPC detailed to the level of a PC that is handled by the player and GM as necessary. Why do you need a specific game mechanic for that? Traveller's many versions have just let you do it on your own. No need to codify it in rules that can then be searched for loopholes by legions of munchkins.

"Followers are spear-carriers/loyal troops/contacts that will provide assistance or obedience to orders for pay or a favor returned."

In other words just everyday, plain, vanilla NPCs. Again, Traveller provides for them. Why this sudden need to rely upon mechanic to generate them when Traveller has just assumed they're a given in nearly every adventure since 'Kinunir'?

To me, it is a slippery slope. With Traveller's uncodified pre-T20 take on the idea, it was up to the player to argue FOR the presence of various 'cohorts' and 'followers'. Now, with the webbed toes of DnD's soi disant leadership 'feat', it up to the GM to argue AGAINST the presence of various 'cohorts' and 'followers'. That is an important difference.

Players with this 'feat' will take advantage of it, after all that's why they chose it in the first place, and the GM will be forced to deal with it. You all know as well as I do that a player will point to page X, paragraph Y and argue that their 'cohort' butler follows them everywhere, even to the fresher, and always has a vacc suit and hand grenade with them. Congratulations, the inclusion of the 'automatic' followers this 'feat' allows has just made your life as a GM more difficult. Ah, progress!

In the end, it's you game and you can run it as you see fit. I think the idea of 'feats' in general and a leadership feat in particular is nonsense. Traveller has leadership, liaison, and streetwise skills, not to mention recruiting, instruction, and three types of tactics. If your PC has those skills you can use them. If your PC doesn't have those skills you can role play it and rely on your skill as a player to get by. Or you can use a 'feat' to roll play it and rely on a few lines in a rule book to get by. I know which of those paths is more satisfying for me as a player and GM. YMMV.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

BluWolf wrote:

"Larsen I'm intersted in why you think feats as a mechanic are at their core a bad thing in a Traveller setting?"


Mr. Wolf,

IMEHO, a skill is a skill is a skill. Levels in an aircraft skill should be the same for all players. With feats, a PC with aircraft-2 and 'stunt flying' is better at a certain group of actions than a PC with aircraft-4. The players should 'role play' their actions and not rely on game mechanics to 'roll play' their actions. If you think you can stunt fly, do it so that you and the GM can decide and not some paragraph in the rule book. If you think you can inspire loyalty in a follower or followers, do it and don't rely on a 'feat' to give you automatic lackeys.

You've got skills already. You've got the stats already. Why do you need 'feats'? Other than to provide you with more automatic skills and resources under a conveniently different name that is.

"There are a lot of feats I agree with you about maninly from other settings that just have no place in a paricular meileiu but do you think the mechanic itself is flawed?"

The mechanic is not flawed. I believe it just suits certain mileaus or genres better than others. If I were running a high fantasy game, superheroes, pulp, Traveller as Lensmen, or a whole host of other mileaus, then feats would fit very nicely indeed. Seeing how psionics training works; each skill you try to learn after the first has a -DM attached, certain feats may be applicable to Traveller psionics; psions seem to have a knack for certain psionic activities. However, for me Traveller has always been relatively ordinary people in extra-ordinary setting; i.e. that Traveller PC could be me born in the 57th Century.

Finally, I'm a fan of simplicity and 'feats' is just another goofy mechanic the players and GM need keep track of. You can stunt fly or inspire followers with out feats, so why do you really need them? Unless you want things to be a matter of 'rolling' and not 'role-ing'.


Sincerely,
Larsen