COACC

[jalberti]

I have found MT COACC an interesting suppliment to read, but not as interesting in a role playing background. It at least seems to me not as good of a gaming background as other MT careers.

Given the cost of aircraft, I think mercenary COACC units would be rare. Losing an aircraft in a merc engagement would be costly to the unit. Also transporting an air unit from planet to planet would be costly.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[jalberti]

I have found MT COACC an interesting suppliment to read, but not as interesting in a role playing background. It at least seems to me not as good of a gaming background as other MT careers.

Given the cost of aircraft, I think mercenary COACC units would be rare. Losing an aircraft in a merc engagement would be costly to the unit. Also transporting an air unit from planet to planet would be costly.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[jalberti]

I have found MT COACC an interesting suppliment to read, but not as interesting in a role playing background. It at least seems to me not as good of a gaming background as other MT careers.

Given the cost of aircraft, I think mercenary COACC units would be rare. Losing an aircraft in a merc engagement would be costly to the unit. Also transporting an air unit from planet to planet would be costly.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[jfetters]

It's funny - I still harbor bad feelings about the COACC supplement all these years later.

With all due respect to the authors & publishers, I thought that it was a waste of publication space. I remember salivating for any product from GDW that would further enhance the rebellion or advance the metastory (like Knightfall, Hard Times & the DGP stuff). When this came out, I just thought it was a waste.

It isn't that it wasn't well thought out and well put together or well written. My main thinking was, "Why in the hell do I want to detail an Air Force when I am trying to have characters dodge factions in an interstellar civil war?"

I think the publication could have gone to something that served the background better, like a faction sourcebook or something.

-Jim

 

[jfetters]

It's funny - I still harbor bad feelings about the COACC supplement all these years later.

With all due respect to the authors & publishers, I thought that it was a waste of publication space. I remember salivating for any product from GDW that would further enhance the rebellion or advance the metastory (like Knightfall, Hard Times & the DGP stuff). When this came out, I just thought it was a waste.

It isn't that it wasn't well thought out and well put together or well written. My main thinking was, "Why in the hell do I want to detail an Air Force when I am trying to have characters dodge factions in an interstellar civil war?"

I think the publication could have gone to something that served the background better, like a faction sourcebook or something.

-Jim

 

[jfetters]

It's funny - I still harbor bad feelings about the COACC supplement all these years later.

With all due respect to the authors & publishers, I thought that it was a waste of publication space. I remember salivating for any product from GDW that would further enhance the rebellion or advance the metastory (like Knightfall, Hard Times & the DGP stuff). When this came out, I just thought it was a waste.

It isn't that it wasn't well thought out and well put together or well written. My main thinking was, "Why in the hell do I want to detail an Air Force when I am trying to have characters dodge factions in an interstellar civil war?"

I think the publication could have gone to something that served the background better, like a faction sourcebook or something.

-Jim

 

[Reg Redblade]

I agree completely. IMHO it was a very poor product.

As most of us did I eagerly picked up all the MT materials I could get my hands on (DGP stuff was much harder to come by) and I remember buying COACC on the strength of the cover alone (which btw I think is one of the most impressive GDW art pieces) - how could you go wrong ? Advanced aircraft fighting it out in Low orbit with invading combat shuttles and orbital assault troops !!! Surely this was just the supplement to port wholesale into the campaign.

By the time I got through half of it or so I realised that this book actually had very, very little to do with the civil war. I think the main problems I had with it were:

1. Poor editing

2. Lack of usefulness to specific MT core issues (the rebellion handbook kept going on about how those high-tech high-population worlds were the essential objectives of all sides - yet this was never really covered.

3. There was actually no adventure content in the supplement (I don't count the campaign game which I thought was of little use for most GMs)

4. I think what really annoyed me though was those sidebars with the terran aircraft analogues (A-10, Skyraider, sopwith camel) whereas the book made no big effort to examine the high tech dimension (what about that beautiful big delta wing on the front cover ?) or aircraft that may evolve or be utilised in planets that didn't exactly match terran specifications.

What I am saying is that while the book may have had some fiction, there was very little science fiction. I was expecting something more high tech, and definitely more exotic.

As usual YMMV

RR

 

[Reg Redblade]

I agree completely. IMHO it was a very poor product.

As most of us did I eagerly picked up all the MT materials I could get my hands on (DGP stuff was much harder to come by) and I remember buying COACC on the strength of the cover alone (which btw I think is one of the most impressive GDW art pieces) - how could you go wrong ? Advanced aircraft fighting it out in Low orbit with invading combat shuttles and orbital assault troops !!! Surely this was just the supplement to port wholesale into the campaign.

By the time I got through half of it or so I realised that this book actually had very, very little to do with the civil war. I think the main problems I had with it were:

1. Poor editing

2. Lack of usefulness to specific MT core issues (the rebellion handbook kept going on about how those high-tech high-population worlds were the essential objectives of all sides - yet this was never really covered.

3. There was actually no adventure content in the supplement (I don't count the campaign game which I thought was of little use for most GMs)

4. I think what really annoyed me though was those sidebars with the terran aircraft analogues (A-10, Skyraider, sopwith camel) whereas the book made no big effort to examine the high tech dimension (what about that beautiful big delta wing on the front cover ?) or aircraft that may evolve or be utilised in planets that didn't exactly match terran specifications.

What I am saying is that while the book may have had some fiction, there was very little science fiction. I was expecting something more high tech, and definitely more exotic.

As usual YMMV

RR

 

[Reg Redblade]

I agree completely. IMHO it was a very poor product.

As most of us did I eagerly picked up all the MT materials I could get my hands on (DGP stuff was much harder to come by) and I remember buying COACC on the strength of the cover alone (which btw I think is one of the most impressive GDW art pieces) - how could you go wrong ? Advanced aircraft fighting it out in Low orbit with invading combat shuttles and orbital assault troops !!! Surely this was just the supplement to port wholesale into the campaign.

By the time I got through half of it or so I realised that this book actually had very, very little to do with the civil war. I think the main problems I had with it were:

1. Poor editing

2. Lack of usefulness to specific MT core issues (the rebellion handbook kept going on about how those high-tech high-population worlds were the essential objectives of all sides - yet this was never really covered.

3. There was actually no adventure content in the supplement (I don't count the campaign game which I thought was of little use for most GMs)

4. I think what really annoyed me though was those sidebars with the terran aircraft analogues (A-10, Skyraider, sopwith camel) whereas the book made no big effort to examine the high tech dimension (what about that beautiful big delta wing on the front cover ?) or aircraft that may evolve or be utilised in planets that didn't exactly match terran specifications.

What I am saying is that while the book may have had some fiction, there was very little science fiction. I was expecting something more high tech, and definitely more exotic.

As usual YMMV

RR

 

[Chuck Anumia]

I remeber using about a half dozen of the aircraft in the whole book.

The rest was a complete waste and I think it still is.

That D wing on the Cover "Should" have been detailed inside. I could have found many uses for it around the Imperium during the early stages of the rebellion.

I wound up throwing stuff together to make my own variation of what I thought it was...

(And now I own the book again on the CD I bought from FFE with all the other MT supplements)

 

[Chuck Anumia]

I remeber using about a half dozen of the aircraft in the whole book.

The rest was a complete waste and I think it still is.

That D wing on the Cover "Should" have been detailed inside. I could have found many uses for it around the Imperium during the early stages of the rebellion.

I wound up throwing stuff together to make my own variation of what I thought it was...

(And now I own the book again on the CD I bought from FFE with all the other MT supplements)

 

[Chuck Anumia]

I remeber using about a half dozen of the aircraft in the whole book.

The rest was a complete waste and I think it still is.

That D wing on the Cover "Should" have been detailed inside. I could have found many uses for it around the Imperium during the early stages of the rebellion.

I wound up throwing stuff together to make my own variation of what I thought it was...

(And now I own the book again on the CD I bought from FFE with all the other MT supplements)

 

[Reg Redblade]

Re Mercenary air units

I liked the idea but dismissed it for the following reasons (which are of course open to challenge)

Air units occupy a certain tech range (say 6 - 10 - now you can have military aircraft before TL6 but what possible use would they be offworld - shooting at P-51Ds with VRF gausses anyone ? So it seems that a mercenary unit would be somewhat limited in it's application tech wise.

The merc unit will also be extremely restricted in where it can operate - re world conditions - atmosphere, gravity etc.

If an air unit was deployed offworld it seems to me that the logistical difficulties would be horrendous - I would estimate it would be ten maybe fifteen times harder to locate spares for your TL9 jumpjet than a TL 9/10 grav vehicle. Every world that has the capability will build grav vehicles (I suppose you will always get exceptions) - regardless of atmospheric conditions because grav works well on water worlds, vacc worlds etc whilst aircraft are restricted to a very narrow band of planets.

Put it this way - you are on a high tech world (say 12 - 16) with your own trusty TL 10 transport. Will it be easier to jury rig the local grav tech to a TL 10 grav vehicle or to a Tl 10 aircraft)to effect repairs. My money is definitely on the former - because even with the tech difference there is still similarities in operation and parts even if the higher TL parts are smaller, more powerful or whatever)

I suppose you could fit aircraft with grav modules so it doesn't need to breathe air - but then you may as well take off the wings ( you don't need them anymore) and call it an enclosed air raft (yes i know this is something of a generalisation but you get my point).

As I said - I liked the IDEA of mercenary airwings moving from war to war in some sort of bulk carrier with cavernous hangers but for the reasons pointed out (and of course as stated above - THE ENORMOUS COST to move any sort of mercenary unit) it just doesn't seem likely in the OTU.

RR

 

[Reg Redblade]

Re Mercenary air units

I liked the idea but dismissed it for the following reasons (which are of course open to challenge)

Air units occupy a certain tech range (say 6 - 10 - now you can have military aircraft before TL6 but what possible use would they be offworld - shooting at P-51Ds with VRF gausses anyone ? So it seems that a mercenary unit would be somewhat limited in it's application tech wise.

The merc unit will also be extremely restricted in where it can operate - re world conditions - atmosphere, gravity etc.

If an air unit was deployed offworld it seems to me that the logistical difficulties would be horrendous - I would estimate it would be ten maybe fifteen times harder to locate spares for your TL9 jumpjet than a TL 9/10 grav vehicle. Every world that has the capability will build grav vehicles (I suppose you will always get exceptions) - regardless of atmospheric conditions because grav works well on water worlds, vacc worlds etc whilst aircraft are restricted to a very narrow band of planets.

Put it this way - you are on a high tech world (say 12 - 16) with your own trusty TL 10 transport. Will it be easier to jury rig the local grav tech to a TL 10 grav vehicle or to a Tl 10 aircraft)to effect repairs. My money is definitely on the former - because even with the tech difference there is still similarities in operation and parts even if the higher TL parts are smaller, more powerful or whatever)

I suppose you could fit aircraft with grav modules so it doesn't need to breathe air - but then you may as well take off the wings ( you don't need them anymore) and call it an enclosed air raft (yes i know this is something of a generalisation but you get my point).

As I said - I liked the IDEA of mercenary airwings moving from war to war in some sort of bulk carrier with cavernous hangers but for the reasons pointed out (and of course as stated above - THE ENORMOUS COST to move any sort of mercenary unit) it just doesn't seem likely in the OTU.

RR

 

[Reg Redblade]

Re Mercenary air units

I liked the idea but dismissed it for the following reasons (which are of course open to challenge)

Air units occupy a certain tech range (say 6 - 10 - now you can have military aircraft before TL6 but what possible use would they be offworld - shooting at P-51Ds with VRF gausses anyone ? So it seems that a mercenary unit would be somewhat limited in it's application tech wise.

The merc unit will also be extremely restricted in where it can operate - re world conditions - atmosphere, gravity etc.

If an air unit was deployed offworld it seems to me that the logistical difficulties would be horrendous - I would estimate it would be ten maybe fifteen times harder to locate spares for your TL9 jumpjet than a TL 9/10 grav vehicle. Every world that has the capability will build grav vehicles (I suppose you will always get exceptions) - regardless of atmospheric conditions because grav works well on water worlds, vacc worlds etc whilst aircraft are restricted to a very narrow band of planets.

Put it this way - you are on a high tech world (say 12 - 16) with your own trusty TL 10 transport. Will it be easier to jury rig the local grav tech to a TL 10 grav vehicle or to a Tl 10 aircraft)to effect repairs. My money is definitely on the former - because even with the tech difference there is still similarities in operation and parts even if the higher TL parts are smaller, more powerful or whatever)

I suppose you could fit aircraft with grav modules so it doesn't need to breathe air - but then you may as well take off the wings ( you don't need them anymore) and call it an enclosed air raft (yes i know this is something of a generalisation but you get my point).

As I said - I liked the IDEA of mercenary airwings moving from war to war in some sort of bulk carrier with cavernous hangers but for the reasons pointed out (and of course as stated above - THE ENORMOUS COST to move any sort of mercenary unit) it just doesn't seem likely in the OTU.

RR

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I have found MT COACC an interesting suppliment to read, but not as interesting in a role playing background. It at least seems to me not as good of a gaming background as other MT careers.

LOVE the planes; never had a chance to use them.

Here's the problems I had with COACC:
- the tasks do not conform to MT rules; e.g. Tactics is meant to be a roving DM, but in COACC it is used as a specific skill modifier (a technical issue)
- my the players generally do not have Aircraft skills and generally don't want to acquire them (they prefer spaceships) - a perennial problem when PC's and technology collide

- at higher TL's (TL 12+?) air-and spacecraft merge (a background issue), which speaks to your other point:

Also transporting an air unit from planet to planet would be costly.

Here's the rub: why use starships to transport aircraft? Why not simply use starfighters instead?

Maybe the Imp Rules of War apply, preventing a merc unit from using high-TL weaponry against low-TL forces. However, costs of transportation are still going to be crippling.

A few options to reduce costs (assuming the merc unit MUST use aircraft:
- use aircraft that are already on-planet; i.e. the hirer has more planes than aircrew
- the merc are hired to train the local forces

Other than that, I agree with you that a merc airwing is a hard thing to justify.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I have found MT COACC an interesting suppliment to read, but not as interesting in a role playing background. It at least seems to me not as good of a gaming background as other MT careers.

LOVE the planes; never had a chance to use them.

Here's the problems I had with COACC:
- the tasks do not conform to MT rules; e.g. Tactics is meant to be a roving DM, but in COACC it is used as a specific skill modifier (a technical issue)
- my the players generally do not have Aircraft skills and generally don't want to acquire them (they prefer spaceships) - a perennial problem when PC's and technology collide

- at higher TL's (TL 12+?) air-and spacecraft merge (a background issue), which speaks to your other point:

Also transporting an air unit from planet to planet would be costly.

Here's the rub: why use starships to transport aircraft? Why not simply use starfighters instead?

Maybe the Imp Rules of War apply, preventing a merc unit from using high-TL weaponry against low-TL forces. However, costs of transportation are still going to be crippling.

A few options to reduce costs (assuming the merc unit MUST use aircraft:
- use aircraft that are already on-planet; i.e. the hirer has more planes than aircrew
- the merc are hired to train the local forces

Other than that, I agree with you that a merc airwing is a hard thing to justify.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I have found MT COACC an interesting suppliment to read, but not as interesting in a role playing background. It at least seems to me not as good of a gaming background as other MT careers.

LOVE the planes; never had a chance to use them.

Here's the problems I had with COACC:
- the tasks do not conform to MT rules; e.g. Tactics is meant to be a roving DM, but in COACC it is used as a specific skill modifier (a technical issue)
- my the players generally do not have Aircraft skills and generally don't want to acquire them (they prefer spaceships) - a perennial problem when PC's and technology collide

- at higher TL's (TL 12+?) air-and spacecraft merge (a background issue), which speaks to your other point:

Also transporting an air unit from planet to planet would be costly.

Here's the rub: why use starships to transport aircraft? Why not simply use starfighters instead?

Maybe the Imp Rules of War apply, preventing a merc unit from using high-TL weaponry against low-TL forces. However, costs of transportation are still going to be crippling.

A few options to reduce costs (assuming the merc unit MUST use aircraft:
- use aircraft that are already on-planet; i.e. the hirer has more planes than aircrew
- the merc are hired to train the local forces

Other than that, I agree with you that a merc airwing is a hard thing to justify.

 

[rhoneycutt]

If one assumes that a Rampart is limited to 6G's, and that means turning and manuevering at 6G's, then it would be possible for a plane to outmanuever it. A plane can turn tighter ( more than 6G's..by at least half again ) and pull up more sharply. In atmosphere, the starfighter's speed would be limited by aero-friction and heating and it might not be tailored as closely, aerodynamic-wise, to be as streamlined. Missles could take it out. Tech 9 or 10 aircraft might be nasty for a starfighter to dogfight in an atmosphere.

I avoid grav, IMTU, by making it use more power. power used=altitude*mass*g*eff and it produces no actual thrust....in such an enviroment, COAAC makes a bit more sense.

 

[rhoneycutt]

If one assumes that a Rampart is limited to 6G's, and that means turning and manuevering at 6G's, then it would be possible for a plane to outmanuever it. A plane can turn tighter ( more than 6G's..by at least half again ) and pull up more sharply. In atmosphere, the starfighter's speed would be limited by aero-friction and heating and it might not be tailored as closely, aerodynamic-wise, to be as streamlined. Missles could take it out. Tech 9 or 10 aircraft might be nasty for a starfighter to dogfight in an atmosphere.

I avoid grav, IMTU, by making it use more power. power used=altitude*mass*g*eff and it produces no actual thrust....in such an enviroment, COAAC makes a bit more sense.