Classic Traveller Sensor Rules

[Supplement Four]

UPDATE!

I have just edited the DM used when a target "goes active" during space combat.

Now, it is almost automatic that a ship that either (1) uses its active sensors or (2) fires its weapons will be detected and locked onto by enemy vessels.

This rule change promotes the idea of cat-n-mouse tag across the vastness of space.

 

[Supplement Four]

UPDATE!

I have just edited the DM used when a target "goes active" during space combat.

Now, it is almost automatic that a ship that either (1) uses its active sensors or (2) fires its weapons will be detected and locked onto by enemy vessels.

This rule change promotes the idea of cat-n-mouse tag across the vastness of space.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
Tackling sensor tasks in a RW context, we two general types: Active and Passive, and we have two roles: Detection and Targeting. So, here is a quickie table marking with an 'X' an appropriate use:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Detection | Targeting
Active | X | X
Passive | X | -</pre>

Note that I did not mark Passive Targeting. [/quote]We're of a like mind on this.

If you note, in the sensor rules, the DM for using Passive sensors on a targeting task is a -6DM penalty.

With that steep a penalty, Passive sensors will hardly ever be used to lock targets, and when they are used in that manner, it is most likely that the task will fail.

Since bogeys cannot be fired upon until a sensor lock is obtained, it is unlikely that any starship captain will make use of the passive sensors for targeting locks.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
Tackling sensor tasks in a RW context, we two general types: Active and Passive, and we have two roles: Detection and Targeting. So, here is a quickie table marking with an 'X' an appropriate use:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Detection | Targeting
Active | X | X
Passive | X | -</pre>

Note that I did not mark Passive Targeting. [/quote]We're of a like mind on this.

If you note, in the sensor rules, the DM for using Passive sensors on a targeting task is a -6DM penalty.

With that steep a penalty, Passive sensors will hardly ever be used to lock targets, and when they are used in that manner, it is most likely that the task will fail.

Since bogeys cannot be fired upon until a sensor lock is obtained, it is unlikely that any starship captain will make use of the passive sensors for targeting locks.

 

[Supplement Four]

A LOOK AT THESE SENSOR RULES...

...in a real life gaming situation.


Let's take a look at these sensor rules as they are used in a scenario that is taking place in my real life game.


-----------------------------------------------
SITUATION
-----------------------------------------------
A 5000T Type AH Hercules class Heavy Merchant is barreling through an asteroid belt. Lying in ambush is a 400T Asteroid Surveyor.

The crew of the AH have reason to believe that an ambush awaits them. They are alert.

The captain of the Surveyor is surprised to see the huge vessel--he was expecting a much smaller (and less well armed) opponent.

The Surveyor is grappled to the side of an asteroid, using it for camouflage, and although it has detected the AH, a target lock has not been attempted or achieved at this point.

The Herc has not yet detected the Surveyor.

As the AH approaches the Surveyor's asteroid, the captain calls to his gunner.

"Load the nuke!"


-----------------------------------------------
COMBATANTS
-----------------------------------------------

5000T Type AH Hercules class Heavy Merchant
4 Dual Beam Laser Turrets

PP-W
Computer-2bis
Class III Sensor Suite

Navigation-1 (Sensor Ops-0)

Sensor Listing
---------------
2+ ... Range 0
4+ ... Range 1-2
6+ ... Range 3-30
8+ ... Range 31-45


400T Asteroid Surveyor
1 turret with 1 Beam Laser, 1 Missile Launcher, 1 Sandcaster

PP-D
Computer-2bis
Class II Sensor Suite

Navigation-6 (Sensor Ops-5)

Sensor Listing
---------------
2+ ... Range 0
4+ ... Range 1-2
6+ ... Range 3-13
8+ ... Range 14-30


-----------------------------------------------
SPACE COMBAT ROUND 1
-----------------------------------------------

--SURVEYOR MOVEMENT PHASE--
Sensor tasks are conducted in the movement phase. Range from the Surveyor to the Herc is 15 hexes. Detection has previously been made, but a target lock has not yet been acquired. The Surveyor's captain is refraining from going active until the last possible moment.

The Surveyor remains grappled to the asteroid. No movement.

Since the captain plans to fire his nuke this round, he needs a target lock. A lock can be obtained with the Passive sensors, but it's hard to do--the penalty is steep. A failed passive lock means waiting another 15 minutes (the next combat round) before another attempt can be made (because only one targeting attempt can be made per detected bogey per round).

The captain decides to go active, revealing himself, in his attempt to target the AH.

From the sensor listing above, we see that the Surveyor's throw, at 15 hexes, is 8+.

A throw is made for the Surveyor's Navigator. A result of 10 is obtained on 2D.

10
+5 ... Sensor Ops skill
+1 ... UGM task bonus (using the TL of the ship as the governor stat)
-2 ... Target Herc is "coasting" at a velocity of 9.
+0 ... Target Herc size DM
---
14

The Navigator easily obtained the target lock.

Note that, normally, a -6DM is applied to targeting task rolls, but a vessel is allowed a number of targeting locks without this penalty, per round, equal to the ship's computer model number if Active sensors are used.

In this ship's case, the Surveyor can make two targeting attempts, without the penalty, each combat round.

Also note that, if the Passive sensors had been used for the lock attempt, this task would have just made it--but only because the sensor operator is highly skilled (+5). Typically, lock attempts made with passive sensors fail.



--SURVEYOR LASER FIRE PHASE--
The Surveyor refrains from laser fire this phase, hoping that the launched nuke will cripple the AH.


--HERC LASER RETURN FIRE PHASE--
Normally, the Herc would fire at the Surveyor this phase, but, technically, the Herc does not have detection. The Herc's sensor phase does not occur until its next movement phase.


--SURVEYOR ORDNANCE LAUNCH PHASE--
The Surveyor launches the nuke, but per Book 2 space combat rules, the missile will not move until the Surveyor's next movement phase.


--SURVEYOR COMPUTER REPROGRAMMING PHASE--
And this ends the Surveyor's turn during round one.


--HERC MOVEMENT PHASE--
Passive sensors are always considered "on", and a ship is allowed one sensor scan each combat round.

The player playing the Navigator on the Herc rolls 2D for the sensor task. The result is 4.

4
+0 ... Sensor Ops skill
+1 ... UGM task bonus (using the TL of the ship as the governor stat)
+6 ... Surveyor went "active"
-2 ... Surveyor considered "coasting"
-2 ... GM imposed modifier for Surveyor's camouflage while grappled to the asteroid
-1 ... Surveyor's size DM
---
6

At 15 hexes, the Herc just made detection on the Surveyor.

"SIR! Energy spike!"

But, note that the launched missile HAS NOT been detected. The size DM, for the missile, is -2DM (rather than the surveyor's -1DM), taking the Passive sensor scan result down one point with regard to the missile only.

At this point, the AH has obtained detection of something out there--something that may be close to one of the larger asteroids.

"SIR! Passive EMS is reading accelerated levels of energy coming from one of the asteroids...sir, the asteroid is glowing!"

The Herc captain decides to move now, closing range with the glowing asteroid, before making a sensor lock attempt.

In order to keep the "coasting" DM, the Herc's captain does not fire the M-Drive to increase, decrease, or otherwise alter his course or speed. The Herc is moved 9 hexes on the game board along its projected path.

Now, targeting locks can be attempted in the same round that detection is obtained. Any number of targeting locks can be rolled as long as there are bogies to roll them on (only one lock attempt per bogey per round allowed). But, some of the targeting locks are assigned a -6DM penalty, and some are not.

If the Herc uses it's active sensors, it can make two targeting attempts in a round before the -6DM penalty kicks in. The Herc could also attempt a lock using the passive sensors, but the -6DM would apply to all of the targeting throws.

Range is now 6 hexes to the detected bogey, and the Herc's Navigator goes for a sensor lock. He wants more information about what he's up against.

He rolls a 7.

7
+0 ... Sensor Ops skill
+1 ... UGM task bonus (using the TL of the ship as the governor stat)
+6 ... Bogey is "active"
-2 ... Bogey considered "coasting"
-2 ... GM imposed modifier for Surveyor's camouflage while grappled to the asteroid
-1 ... Bogey's size DM
---
9

At 6 hexes, the Herc needs a 6+ for a target lock.

"SIR! It's a ship...it's a ship grappled on one of the asteroids. She's not moving. She's got a lock on us. And, the computer has matched the radar cross-section. She's a asteroid survey vessel common to this system. 400 ton displacement. Our library does not have information on typical armament."


--HERC LASER FIRE PHASE--
The captain says, "Any other bogies show up on scanners?"

"No sir. The rest of our scanning range looks clean." The navigator replies.

"Alright then. Maybe she's a miner just checkin' us out. No further contacts. She hasn't fired. Let's keep to our course...but target the starboard side lasers on her. Let's be ready if something happens. Keep an eye on her."

With no knowledge of the nuclear missile streaming towards them, the captain cannot fire on an asteroid prospector that may just be scanning a nearby ship. The captain of the Herc must make his decisions based on his limited sensor information.

The Herc refrains from firing lasers in this phase.


--SURVEYOR LASER RETURN FIRE PHASE--
"They've got a lock on us sir...but they're not firing," says the ship's navigator to the captain.

"Well," the captain shakes his head, "maybe powers that be that chose this type of vessel knew what they were doing. Let's wait for missile contact and see what we do. Prepare to release the grapples!"

The Surveyor decides to hold fire as well, waiting for the situation to develop.


--HERC ORDNANCE LAUNCH PHASE--
The Herc does not have missile launchers.


--HERC COMPUTER REPROGRAMMING PHASE--
And, that's the end of round one.


-----------------------------------------------
SPACE COMBAT ROUND 2
-----------------------------------------------

--SURVEYOR MOVEMENT PHASE--
Per Book 2 combat rules, the missile launched last round moves this round.

It's a 0.1 kiloton 6G12 nuclear missile using a discretionary burn propulsion system (per Special Supplement 3 rules).

The captain of the Surveyor waits, his eyes glued to the tracking screen, as the missile speeds towards the Herc.

The missile is moved 6 hexes, landing in the same hex as the Herc.

Since a sensor lock has been obtained on the Herc, the Surveyor does not need to make any sensor rolls this round, but the ship's navigator checks the Passive scanners just in case other objects reveal themselves "out there".

I won't go through the entire passive sensor scan, but suffice it to say that it turned up nothing (because there's nothing else out there).

The captain is waiting, watching the missile streak towards its target. He refrains from de-coupling with the asteroid this round.


--SURVEYOR LASER FIRE PHASE--
Again, the Surveyor's captain refrains from firing lasers at the Herc. He knows the Herc has a lock on him, and the Herc has 8 beam lasers that could be fired at the Surveyor in the next phase.


--HERC LASER RETURN FIRE PHASE--
Since no detection of the missile has yet been obtained, and the Herc hasn't been fired upon, the captain of he Herc cannot order the ship's weapons fired in this phase (per Book 2 combat rules).


--SURVEYOR ORDNANCE LAUNCH PHASE--
Per Book 2 combat, all ordnance which contacted enemy ships during the last movement phase explodes in this phase.

The nuke slams into the hull of the Herc, taking it completely unawares.

It's time to roll damage.

 

[Supplement Four]

A LOOK AT THESE SENSOR RULES...

...in a real life gaming situation.


Let's take a look at these sensor rules as they are used in a scenario that is taking place in my real life game.


-----------------------------------------------
SITUATION
-----------------------------------------------
A 5000T Type AH Hercules class Heavy Merchant is barreling through an asteroid belt. Lying in ambush is a 400T Asteroid Surveyor.

The crew of the AH have reason to believe that an ambush awaits them. They are alert.

The captain of the Surveyor is surprised to see the huge vessel--he was expecting a much smaller (and less well armed) opponent.

The Surveyor is grappled to the side of an asteroid, using it for camouflage, and although it has detected the AH, a target lock has not been attempted or achieved at this point.

The Herc has not yet detected the Surveyor.

As the AH approaches the Surveyor's asteroid, the captain calls to his gunner.

"Load the nuke!"


-----------------------------------------------
COMBATANTS
-----------------------------------------------

5000T Type AH Hercules class Heavy Merchant
4 Dual Beam Laser Turrets

PP-W
Computer-2bis
Class III Sensor Suite

Navigation-1 (Sensor Ops-0)

Sensor Listing
---------------
2+ ... Range 0
4+ ... Range 1-2
6+ ... Range 3-30
8+ ... Range 31-45


400T Asteroid Surveyor
1 turret with 1 Beam Laser, 1 Missile Launcher, 1 Sandcaster

PP-D
Computer-2bis
Class II Sensor Suite

Navigation-6 (Sensor Ops-5)

Sensor Listing
---------------
2+ ... Range 0
4+ ... Range 1-2
6+ ... Range 3-13
8+ ... Range 14-30


-----------------------------------------------
SPACE COMBAT ROUND 1
-----------------------------------------------

--SURVEYOR MOVEMENT PHASE--
Sensor tasks are conducted in the movement phase. Range from the Surveyor to the Herc is 15 hexes. Detection has previously been made, but a target lock has not yet been acquired. The Surveyor's captain is refraining from going active until the last possible moment.

The Surveyor remains grappled to the asteroid. No movement.

Since the captain plans to fire his nuke this round, he needs a target lock. A lock can be obtained with the Passive sensors, but it's hard to do--the penalty is steep. A failed passive lock means waiting another 15 minutes (the next combat round) before another attempt can be made (because only one targeting attempt can be made per detected bogey per round).

The captain decides to go active, revealing himself, in his attempt to target the AH.

From the sensor listing above, we see that the Surveyor's throw, at 15 hexes, is 8+.

A throw is made for the Surveyor's Navigator. A result of 10 is obtained on 2D.

10
+5 ... Sensor Ops skill
+1 ... UGM task bonus (using the TL of the ship as the governor stat)
-2 ... Target Herc is "coasting" at a velocity of 9.
+0 ... Target Herc size DM
---
14

The Navigator easily obtained the target lock.

Note that, normally, a -6DM is applied to targeting task rolls, but a vessel is allowed a number of targeting locks without this penalty, per round, equal to the ship's computer model number if Active sensors are used.

In this ship's case, the Surveyor can make two targeting attempts, without the penalty, each combat round.

Also note that, if the Passive sensors had been used for the lock attempt, this task would have just made it--but only because the sensor operator is highly skilled (+5). Typically, lock attempts made with passive sensors fail.



--SURVEYOR LASER FIRE PHASE--
The Surveyor refrains from laser fire this phase, hoping that the launched nuke will cripple the AH.


--HERC LASER RETURN FIRE PHASE--
Normally, the Herc would fire at the Surveyor this phase, but, technically, the Herc does not have detection. The Herc's sensor phase does not occur until its next movement phase.


--SURVEYOR ORDNANCE LAUNCH PHASE--
The Surveyor launches the nuke, but per Book 2 space combat rules, the missile will not move until the Surveyor's next movement phase.


--SURVEYOR COMPUTER REPROGRAMMING PHASE--
And this ends the Surveyor's turn during round one.


--HERC MOVEMENT PHASE--
Passive sensors are always considered "on", and a ship is allowed one sensor scan each combat round.

The player playing the Navigator on the Herc rolls 2D for the sensor task. The result is 4.

4
+0 ... Sensor Ops skill
+1 ... UGM task bonus (using the TL of the ship as the governor stat)
+6 ... Surveyor went "active"
-2 ... Surveyor considered "coasting"
-2 ... GM imposed modifier for Surveyor's camouflage while grappled to the asteroid
-1 ... Surveyor's size DM
---
6

At 15 hexes, the Herc just made detection on the Surveyor.

"SIR! Energy spike!"

But, note that the launched missile HAS NOT been detected. The size DM, for the missile, is -2DM (rather than the surveyor's -1DM), taking the Passive sensor scan result down one point with regard to the missile only.

At this point, the AH has obtained detection of something out there--something that may be close to one of the larger asteroids.

"SIR! Passive EMS is reading accelerated levels of energy coming from one of the asteroids...sir, the asteroid is glowing!"

The Herc captain decides to move now, closing range with the glowing asteroid, before making a sensor lock attempt.

In order to keep the "coasting" DM, the Herc's captain does not fire the M-Drive to increase, decrease, or otherwise alter his course or speed. The Herc is moved 9 hexes on the game board along its projected path.

Now, targeting locks can be attempted in the same round that detection is obtained. Any number of targeting locks can be rolled as long as there are bogies to roll them on (only one lock attempt per bogey per round allowed). But, some of the targeting locks are assigned a -6DM penalty, and some are not.

If the Herc uses it's active sensors, it can make two targeting attempts in a round before the -6DM penalty kicks in. The Herc could also attempt a lock using the passive sensors, but the -6DM would apply to all of the targeting throws.

Range is now 6 hexes to the detected bogey, and the Herc's Navigator goes for a sensor lock. He wants more information about what he's up against.

He rolls a 7.

7
+0 ... Sensor Ops skill
+1 ... UGM task bonus (using the TL of the ship as the governor stat)
+6 ... Bogey is "active"
-2 ... Bogey considered "coasting"
-2 ... GM imposed modifier for Surveyor's camouflage while grappled to the asteroid
-1 ... Bogey's size DM
---
9

At 6 hexes, the Herc needs a 6+ for a target lock.

"SIR! It's a ship...it's a ship grappled on one of the asteroids. She's not moving. She's got a lock on us. And, the computer has matched the radar cross-section. She's a asteroid survey vessel common to this system. 400 ton displacement. Our library does not have information on typical armament."


--HERC LASER FIRE PHASE--
The captain says, "Any other bogies show up on scanners?"

"No sir. The rest of our scanning range looks clean." The navigator replies.

"Alright then. Maybe she's a miner just checkin' us out. No further contacts. She hasn't fired. Let's keep to our course...but target the starboard side lasers on her. Let's be ready if something happens. Keep an eye on her."

With no knowledge of the nuclear missile streaming towards them, the captain cannot fire on an asteroid prospector that may just be scanning a nearby ship. The captain of the Herc must make his decisions based on his limited sensor information.

The Herc refrains from firing lasers in this phase.


--SURVEYOR LASER RETURN FIRE PHASE--
"They've got a lock on us sir...but they're not firing," says the ship's navigator to the captain.

"Well," the captain shakes his head, "maybe powers that be that chose this type of vessel knew what they were doing. Let's wait for missile contact and see what we do. Prepare to release the grapples!"

The Surveyor decides to hold fire as well, waiting for the situation to develop.


--HERC ORDNANCE LAUNCH PHASE--
The Herc does not have missile launchers.


--HERC COMPUTER REPROGRAMMING PHASE--
And, that's the end of round one.


-----------------------------------------------
SPACE COMBAT ROUND 2
-----------------------------------------------

--SURVEYOR MOVEMENT PHASE--
Per Book 2 combat rules, the missile launched last round moves this round.

It's a 0.1 kiloton 6G12 nuclear missile using a discretionary burn propulsion system (per Special Supplement 3 rules).

The captain of the Surveyor waits, his eyes glued to the tracking screen, as the missile speeds towards the Herc.

The missile is moved 6 hexes, landing in the same hex as the Herc.

Since a sensor lock has been obtained on the Herc, the Surveyor does not need to make any sensor rolls this round, but the ship's navigator checks the Passive scanners just in case other objects reveal themselves "out there".

I won't go through the entire passive sensor scan, but suffice it to say that it turned up nothing (because there's nothing else out there).

The captain is waiting, watching the missile streak towards its target. He refrains from de-coupling with the asteroid this round.


--SURVEYOR LASER FIRE PHASE--
Again, the Surveyor's captain refrains from firing lasers at the Herc. He knows the Herc has a lock on him, and the Herc has 8 beam lasers that could be fired at the Surveyor in the next phase.


--HERC LASER RETURN FIRE PHASE--
Since no detection of the missile has yet been obtained, and the Herc hasn't been fired upon, the captain of he Herc cannot order the ship's weapons fired in this phase (per Book 2 combat rules).


--SURVEYOR ORDNANCE LAUNCH PHASE--
Per Book 2 combat, all ordnance which contacted enemy ships during the last movement phase explodes in this phase.

The nuke slams into the hull of the Herc, taking it completely unawares.

It's time to roll damage.

 

[BillDowns]

[

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
I never said a starship pilot is expected to make due with a pair of opera glasses; I'd expect the average commercial freighter to have:

1. A decent radar/lidar with collision avoidance software
2. A decent gravimetric sensor tied into the jump drive somehow
3. A good narrowband communications array with very high transfer rate
4. A decent broadband radiation sensor to warn crews of dangerous space phenomenon

If I appeared to say that, I apologize. I think we agree on the basic civ equipment.

Any submariner surfing this thread is bound to disagree with you here and with good reason. Submarines utilize passive sonar almost exclusively for targetting. No sub commander is going to go active against a target unless he has absolutely no other options; it exposes his position and draws a lot of attention, even in the midst of a submarine dogfight. And passive targetting solutions are very accurate if done correctly; maybe not for pinpoint weapons like lasers but definitely for any sort of explosive/expanding warhead.

Actually, Ran, I trained sonarmen and tactical teams for boats. I was trying not to talk about certain things.

But, I did point out that passives do work with self-guiding weapons but it takes time. And I am going to drop this right there.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Please also note, there are also enough 'net links to show modern warships have 2 separate systems for detection and targeting.

You are correct, sir. </font>[/QUOTE]My point was that having two separate systems seemed to be overlooked. The actives seemed to be part of one massive system. I phrased it incompletely. So, it looks like we agree here.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillDowns:
The quality of the sensor is going to determine how sensitive the sensors are to the signal over ambient noise. If a sensor can differentiate a -5dB signal over ambient, cpu power ain't gonna improve it.

You're missing my point; the more sensitive your sensors, the more ambient noise you're going to hear. Going back to the submarine example: the operator is able to hear exactly what is coming through the transducers but alone, he can't process all that data; there's just too much. </font>[/QUOTE]I think we both got cross-wampus here. A cpu is definitely going to be necessary, but so are the sensitive sensors to provide the data in the first place.

In my example, the SNR sensitivity of the sensors was -5dB, and while a computer can pull out a signature, it still isn't going to isolate a -10dB trace out of it either. Right?

 

[BillDowns]

[

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
I never said a starship pilot is expected to make due with a pair of opera glasses; I'd expect the average commercial freighter to have:

1. A decent radar/lidar with collision avoidance software
2. A decent gravimetric sensor tied into the jump drive somehow
3. A good narrowband communications array with very high transfer rate
4. A decent broadband radiation sensor to warn crews of dangerous space phenomenon

If I appeared to say that, I apologize. I think we agree on the basic civ equipment.

Any submariner surfing this thread is bound to disagree with you here and with good reason. Submarines utilize passive sonar almost exclusively for targetting. No sub commander is going to go active against a target unless he has absolutely no other options; it exposes his position and draws a lot of attention, even in the midst of a submarine dogfight. And passive targetting solutions are very accurate if done correctly; maybe not for pinpoint weapons like lasers but definitely for any sort of explosive/expanding warhead.

Actually, Ran, I trained sonarmen and tactical teams for boats. I was trying not to talk about certain things.

But, I did point out that passives do work with self-guiding weapons but it takes time. And I am going to drop this right there.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Please also note, there are also enough 'net links to show modern warships have 2 separate systems for detection and targeting.

You are correct, sir. </font>[/QUOTE]My point was that having two separate systems seemed to be overlooked. The actives seemed to be part of one massive system. I phrased it incompletely. So, it looks like we agree here.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillDowns:
The quality of the sensor is going to determine how sensitive the sensors are to the signal over ambient noise. If a sensor can differentiate a -5dB signal over ambient, cpu power ain't gonna improve it.

You're missing my point; the more sensitive your sensors, the more ambient noise you're going to hear. Going back to the submarine example: the operator is able to hear exactly what is coming through the transducers but alone, he can't process all that data; there's just too much. </font>[/QUOTE]I think we both got cross-wampus here. A cpu is definitely going to be necessary, but so are the sensitive sensors to provide the data in the first place.

In my example, the SNR sensitivity of the sensors was -5dB, and while a computer can pull out a signature, it still isn't going to isolate a -10dB trace out of it either. Right?

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by WJP:
A LOOK AT THESE SENSOR RULES...

...SNIP...

The nuke slams into the hull of the Herc, taking it completely unawares.

It's time to roll damage.

I like it, but something is bothering me. I guess its that somehow, I feel the Herc ought to be able to get a last-ditch effort at hitting the missle, even at some gawd-awful DM.

This does assume a Passive-steered missle.

Originally posted by Plankowner
A first cut at Costs etc:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TYPE COST TL
Class I 1 8
Class II 2 A
Class III 4 C
Class IV 7 E</pre>

[/quote]I like that, Plankowner. It's good for me, just needs some tonnage, now.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by WJP:
A LOOK AT THESE SENSOR RULES...

...SNIP...

The nuke slams into the hull of the Herc, taking it completely unawares.

It's time to roll damage.

I like it, but something is bothering me. I guess its that somehow, I feel the Herc ought to be able to get a last-ditch effort at hitting the missle, even at some gawd-awful DM.

This does assume a Passive-steered missle.

Originally posted by Plankowner
A first cut at Costs etc:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TYPE COST TL
Class I 1 8
Class II 2 A
Class III 4 C
Class IV 7 E</pre>

[/quote]I like that, Plankowner. It's good for me, just needs some tonnage, now.

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by WJP:
I'm in general agreement with this too. Hit me with some number, bro. What do you think?...
(I've always envisioned CT computers to be "computer systems" on ships anyway--not just a single cpu, but a whole network system. The model number describes the "grade" of the entire ship's system.)

I agree. I've always viewed CT "computers" as all command and control function not proportional to ship size, the rest wrapped into the bridge.

I see plankowner got down some nice costs, how about some tonnage.

Class I, II, part of the computer package.
Class III +2 tons.
Class IV +4 tons.

Just a quick pass, not too happy with it. I'm afraid it might not fit in the 100 ton scout.

Finally, a sensor "lock" I take it that which is sufficient to obtain a firing solution...

Check out the rest of the rules I just posted. [/quote][/qb]
checked, nice

I've yet to catch up, but wouldn't using passive sensors only be better represented by just cutting the range? After all, active sensors use the same detectors they just send out a signal that can be "bounced" back.

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by WJP:
I'm in general agreement with this too. Hit me with some number, bro. What do you think?...
(I've always envisioned CT computers to be "computer systems" on ships anyway--not just a single cpu, but a whole network system. The model number describes the "grade" of the entire ship's system.)

I agree. I've always viewed CT "computers" as all command and control function not proportional to ship size, the rest wrapped into the bridge.

I see plankowner got down some nice costs, how about some tonnage.

Class I, II, part of the computer package.
Class III +2 tons.
Class IV +4 tons.

Just a quick pass, not too happy with it. I'm afraid it might not fit in the 100 ton scout.

Finally, a sensor "lock" I take it that which is sufficient to obtain a firing solution...

Check out the rest of the rules I just posted. [/quote][/qb]
checked, nice

I've yet to catch up, but wouldn't using passive sensors only be better represented by just cutting the range? After all, active sensors use the same detectors they just send out a signal that can be "bounced" back.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
I like it, but something is bothering me. I guess its that somehow, I feel the Herc ought to be able to get a last-ditch effort at hitting the missle, even at some gawd-awful DM.

The Herc almost did detect the missile--and typically, in open space, it probably would.

Consider--

--1-- The Herc's sensor roll was piss-poor. A 4! And even with that low roll, the Herc only missed detection of the missile by one lousy stinking point.

(I actually rolled those dice--I didn't fudge the rolls for purposes of this example. I'm actually using this scenario in my RL game.)


--2-- And, I imposed a -2DM for "camouflage" as the Surveyor clinged to the asteroid. Out in open space, this DM wouldn't be applied.

So, normally, the Herc would have detected the missile even on a roll of 3+ (only a roll of 2 would have failed out in open space).

If this scenario occurred out in open space, the Herc would have had a 97% chance of detecting the missile!

(How's that for your sense of a last-ditch effort?)


--3-- The Herc is victim to perfect circumstance in this situation.

---> The Surveyor is clinging, relatively motionless (not moving from hex to hex) on an asteroid. Out in open space, it would be damn suspicious for a ship to just be floating there at relative stop.

---> The Surveyor is also a typical ship seen in this asteroid belt. It wasn't a Vargr Corsair grabbled to that asteroid. It was a ship that seemed like it had a right to be there.

---> And, when the Surveyor went active and locked onto the Herc, it wasn't unusual. It's probably common for ships that are close to each other to scan local vessels--they're on the look out for pirates and such too! In any other scenario, the lock obtained by the Surveyor would probably raise the alarm on the Herc very high!


--4-- Finally, the Surveyor had a pretty incredible (and very illegal) missile aboard with that nuke. A 6G12 nuclear missile (doing 10 regular damage throws and 2 radition damage rolls)!


LOOK AT THIS!!

I just realized, though, that I screwed up a hair in that example.

THIS MAY MAKE YOU FEEL A LOT BETTER ABOUT THE SCENARIO.

At a range of 12 hexes, the 6G12 COULDN'T get to the Herc in one combat round.

From a velocity of 0, the max distance that missile could have travelled in the combat round is 6 hexes. The other 6 hexes would have been traveled in Round 2.

So...

The Herc WOULD AUTOMATICALLY pick the missile up on the Round 2 Passive scan (if the players remember to look at the sensors and make the Round 2 detection roll). The missile, on Round 2, would be at 6 hexes from the Herc...3 hexes from the Herc should the Herc move in its movement phase before checking the sensors.

At 3 or 6 hexes, the Herc needs a 6+ roll. The missile is considered active, so it's a +6DM to that roll. And, the missile no longer benefits from the -2DM from camouflage of the asteroid.

At 3 or 6 hexes, that missile would have been detected.

THEN the Herc would have blown the missile out of the void with the EIGHT throws it gets for it's 8 beam laser weapons later in the round.

THAT MISSILE SHOULD BE A GONER.

I SCREWED UP WITH THE EXAMPLE.

I bet you feel better now, eh?


This does assume a Passive-steered missle.

No. All missiles, under these rules, are considered active. And the +6DM is applied to them (offset somewhat by the -2DM for target size).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
I like it, but something is bothering me. I guess its that somehow, I feel the Herc ought to be able to get a last-ditch effort at hitting the missle, even at some gawd-awful DM.

The Herc almost did detect the missile--and typically, in open space, it probably would.

Consider--

--1-- The Herc's sensor roll was piss-poor. A 4! And even with that low roll, the Herc only missed detection of the missile by one lousy stinking point.

(I actually rolled those dice--I didn't fudge the rolls for purposes of this example. I'm actually using this scenario in my RL game.)


--2-- And, I imposed a -2DM for "camouflage" as the Surveyor clinged to the asteroid. Out in open space, this DM wouldn't be applied.

So, normally, the Herc would have detected the missile even on a roll of 3+ (only a roll of 2 would have failed out in open space).

If this scenario occurred out in open space, the Herc would have had a 97% chance of detecting the missile!

(How's that for your sense of a last-ditch effort?)


--3-- The Herc is victim to perfect circumstance in this situation.

---> The Surveyor is clinging, relatively motionless (not moving from hex to hex) on an asteroid. Out in open space, it would be damn suspicious for a ship to just be floating there at relative stop.

---> The Surveyor is also a typical ship seen in this asteroid belt. It wasn't a Vargr Corsair grabbled to that asteroid. It was a ship that seemed like it had a right to be there.

---> And, when the Surveyor went active and locked onto the Herc, it wasn't unusual. It's probably common for ships that are close to each other to scan local vessels--they're on the look out for pirates and such too! In any other scenario, the lock obtained by the Surveyor would probably raise the alarm on the Herc very high!


--4-- Finally, the Surveyor had a pretty incredible (and very illegal) missile aboard with that nuke. A 6G12 nuclear missile (doing 10 regular damage throws and 2 radition damage rolls)!


LOOK AT THIS!!

I just realized, though, that I screwed up a hair in that example.

THIS MAY MAKE YOU FEEL A LOT BETTER ABOUT THE SCENARIO.

At a range of 12 hexes, the 6G12 COULDN'T get to the Herc in one combat round.

From a velocity of 0, the max distance that missile could have travelled in the combat round is 6 hexes. The other 6 hexes would have been traveled in Round 2.

So...

The Herc WOULD AUTOMATICALLY pick the missile up on the Round 2 Passive scan (if the players remember to look at the sensors and make the Round 2 detection roll). The missile, on Round 2, would be at 6 hexes from the Herc...3 hexes from the Herc should the Herc move in its movement phase before checking the sensors.

At 3 or 6 hexes, the Herc needs a 6+ roll. The missile is considered active, so it's a +6DM to that roll. And, the missile no longer benefits from the -2DM from camouflage of the asteroid.

At 3 or 6 hexes, that missile would have been detected.

THEN the Herc would have blown the missile out of the void with the EIGHT throws it gets for it's 8 beam laser weapons later in the round.

THAT MISSILE SHOULD BE A GONER.

I SCREWED UP WITH THE EXAMPLE.

I bet you feel better now, eh?


This does assume a Passive-steered missle.

No. All missiles, under these rules, are considered active. And the +6DM is applied to them (offset somewhat by the -2DM for target size).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plankowner
A first cut at Costs etc:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TYPE COST TL
Class I 1 8
Class II 2 A
Class III 4 C
Class IV 7 E</pre>

[/quote]I like that, Plankowner. It's good for me, just needs some tonnage, now.

</font>[/QUOTE]The cost is in MCr?

I think the Class I sensors should come included in the price of the computer. Ship owners who want upgrades can shell out extra bucks for Class II's or Class III's.

I'm also thinking that Class IV's are available by permit only. I'm in agreement that they should be vastly expensive too.

I'm thinking that most (not all) governments can obtain permits for the Class IV's (for their military vessels).

Scouts can obtain Class IV's as well (maybe why the Type S is such a sought-after vessel).

I'm also thinking that scientific vessels, who show need, may be able to obtain the Class IV's.

Heck, a whole game could be set up around a Mercenary crew trying to obtain a Class IV permit in order to outfit their Broadsword.

As far as cost, I'm thinking that the price should be some percentage of either the computer or the cost of the bridge.

Thoughts on that?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plankowner
A first cut at Costs etc:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TYPE COST TL
Class I 1 8
Class II 2 A
Class III 4 C
Class IV 7 E</pre>

[/quote]I like that, Plankowner. It's good for me, just needs some tonnage, now.

</font>[/QUOTE]The cost is in MCr?

I think the Class I sensors should come included in the price of the computer. Ship owners who want upgrades can shell out extra bucks for Class II's or Class III's.

I'm also thinking that Class IV's are available by permit only. I'm in agreement that they should be vastly expensive too.

I'm thinking that most (not all) governments can obtain permits for the Class IV's (for their military vessels).

Scouts can obtain Class IV's as well (maybe why the Type S is such a sought-after vessel).

I'm also thinking that scientific vessels, who show need, may be able to obtain the Class IV's.

Heck, a whole game could be set up around a Mercenary crew trying to obtain a Class IV permit in order to outfit their Broadsword.

As far as cost, I'm thinking that the price should be some percentage of either the computer or the cost of the bridge.

Thoughts on that?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by WJP:
I SCREWED UP WITH THE EXAMPLE.

OK, I fixed the example.

I didn't want to re-write the whole doggone thing, so I just changed the velocity of the Herc.

If it moves at a velocity of 9, 15 hexes will close to 6 once the missile moves. The missile can move from the Surveyor to the Herc in one round, and the example remains unchanged.

At that range, that missile just shot out of there and hit the Herc before it knew what was happening.

As I was starting to reply above, though, this type of thing won't happen often in games. The only reason it works in the example is the special circumstances with the asteroid field and the common ship type used in the ambush.

If you're afraid that your players' ship will get eat up with NPC missiles using these sensor rules, don't fret. The sensors do their jobs keeping ships safe from things like missiles (most of the time).

Try the rules out in your game. You'll see.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by WJP:
I SCREWED UP WITH THE EXAMPLE.

OK, I fixed the example.

I didn't want to re-write the whole doggone thing, so I just changed the velocity of the Herc.

If it moves at a velocity of 9, 15 hexes will close to 6 once the missile moves. The missile can move from the Surveyor to the Herc in one round, and the example remains unchanged.

At that range, that missile just shot out of there and hit the Herc before it knew what was happening.

As I was starting to reply above, though, this type of thing won't happen often in games. The only reason it works in the example is the special circumstances with the asteroid field and the common ship type used in the ambush.

If you're afraid that your players' ship will get eat up with NPC missiles using these sensor rules, don't fret. The sensors do their jobs keeping ships safe from things like missiles (most of the time).

Try the rules out in your game. You'll see.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Ptah:

Class I, II, part of the computer package.
Class III +2 tons.
Class IV +4 tons.

Just a quick pass, not too happy with it. I'm afraid it might not fit in the 100 ton scout.

Yeah, I agree. The entire bridge on my players' 400 ton Type A2 is only 20 tons. I'm wondering if your tonnage figures are a bit steep.

I'm wondering about Plankover's prices, too.

My players' ship's entire bridge only cost 2MCr.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Ptah:

Class I, II, part of the computer package.
Class III +2 tons.
Class IV +4 tons.

Just a quick pass, not too happy with it. I'm afraid it might not fit in the 100 ton scout.

Yeah, I agree. The entire bridge on my players' 400 ton Type A2 is only 20 tons. I'm wondering if your tonnage figures are a bit steep.

I'm wondering about Plankover's prices, too.

My players' ship's entire bridge only cost 2MCr.