Chivalry and Traveller

[jatay3]

Depends on whether you mean ethnic Solomani or the Solimani Confederation. My verse is centered around a largely Solimani culture but one quite distinct from the soli-con and far away. I don't use the Rim much for their is not enough room. The Marches seem better for my design.

My people also trade a lot in the Sword Worlds because I think them cool. I picture Sword Worlders as being rural and clannish, and more comfortable with off-the-cuff justice from the lawman, and even occasional vigilantism then with formal bureaucratic systems. I also picture them having obscure taboos, and local practices.

Sword Worlder's vary in their attitute toward chivalry. I picture the Confederation Patrol and the Tizonian Navy to be disciplined, prim and proper with a hidden(or not so hidden) menace underneath. Kind of like a more masculized Honor Harrington perhaps as there are few women with either as with most Sword-Worlders. They are both rather more Spartan then Imperials though and wear simpler uniforms. In fact now that I think about it, I would picture the Patrol and the Tizonian Navy to have sort of a Harvard-Yale kind of rivalry going. Both would have some similar customs, and some would have served in both. Both are also counted among the premier pirate-killers of the Sword Worlds.

Other Sword Worlders, including militia are more "dirty fighters" and can even devolve into terrorists at times. Gungnirians for instance are often looked at by soldiers from Gram or Sacnoth rather as Austrians used to look at Croats; wild and unpredictable, but useful to have around if you aren't to squeemish.

 

[Jame]

I've been looking at a couple of free Harn supplements recently, and I started wondering...

What about serfdom in Traveller? But instead of being tied to a planet or job, the serf is instead tied to a specific noble? For example, a bonded bodyguard or a lifetime body servant or administrative aide?

 

[HG_B]

What about serfdom in Traveller? But instead of being tied to a planet or job, the serf is instead tied to a specific noble? For example, a bonded bodyguard or a lifetime body servant or administrative aide?

Sure, it's possible. It doesn't exist as part of the 3I but other areas could have it.

 

[jatay3]

I've been looking at a couple of free Harn supplements recently, and I started wondering...

What about serfdom in Traveller? But instead of being tied to a planet or job, the serf is instead tied to a specific noble? For example, a bonded bodyguard or a lifetime body servant or administrative aide?

Moslems sometimes used slave-soldiers and slave police. Slaves could make good police in a medieval Islamic society, as jobs like torture could be devolved to them, saving free men from the work.

A bonded bodyguard, in the way you think of, might see his relationship more as that of a Samurai to his Daimyo then that of a serf to his master. It is hard to imagine someone maintaining a mastery of violence and a servile air at the same time.
But that does indeed have interesting thoughts though. It has been quite common in history for men to have attachments to a given authority figure that is not contractural
as such but based on a sense of meaning people derive from following them. Huscarles would be like this often enough. These wouldn't think of themselves as serfs though.

A serf secretary is plausible though he better be treated right, given his access to his master's secrets.
A serf-lover(like Jessica Atreides, who was my favorite character of Dune), would also be plausible.

 

[aramis]

I've been looking at a couple of free Harn supplements recently, and I started wondering...

What about serfdom in Traveller? But instead of being tied to a planet or job, the serf is instead tied to a specific noble? For example, a bonded bodyguard or a lifetime body servant or administrative aide?

Moslems sometimes used slave-soldiers and slave police. Slaves could make good police in a medieval Islamic society, as jobs like torture could be devolved to them, saving free men from the work.

A bonded bodyguard, in the way you think of, might see his relationship more as that of a Samurai to his Daimyo then that of a serf to his master. It is hard to imagine someone maintaining a mastery of violence and a servile air at the same time.
But that does indeed have interesting thoughts though. It has been quite common in history for men to have attachments to a given authority figure that is not contractural
as such but based on a sense of meaning people derive from following them. Huscarles would be like this often enough. These wouldn't think of themselves as serfs though.

A serf secretary is plausible though he better be treated right, given his access to his master's secrets.
A serf-lover(like Jessica Atreides, who was my favorite character of Dune), would also be plausible.

Starting to make me think of Dune, here...

 

[jatay3]

Starting to make me think of Dune, here...

Of course Jessica thought of herself as a wife and acted like one and it was well known that her concubinage was a political technicality.

 

[aramis]

Of course Jessica thought of herself as a wife and acted like one and it was well known that her concubinage was a political technicality.

I was thinking more of Piter DeVries, Thufir Hawat, Duncan Idaho...

Duncan being an escaped Harkonen slave...
Piter and Thufir essentially having been purchased...

And all the major characters being involved in some form of Lord-Vassal relationships...

 

[jatay3]

I was thinking more of Piter DeVries, Thufir Hawat, Duncan Idaho...

Duncan being an escaped Harkonen slave...
Piter and Thufir essentially having been purchased...

And all the major characters being involved in some form of Lord-Vassal relationships...

I'm don't think vassalage was quite the same as serfdom. But yeah, the Imperium would have patron-client relations if not formal vassalage.

 

[aramis]

I'm don't think vassalage was quite the same as serfdom. But yeah, the Imperium would have patron-client relations if not formal vassalage.

In the case of Mentats, the line is WAY blurry. Especially in Piter and Thufir's cases.

 

[kafka47]

In responses to both excesses of the previous Imperia, the Third Imperium abolished serfdom within its borders. The First Imperium being a classic plutocracy relied heavily upon a caste system in which the workers were effectively slaves/serfs. Emancipation by the Terrans only accelerated the decline and never fully abolished the practices that were centuries ingrained...combined with opportunistic Terran administrators or those who simply wanted to be King. Why the Third Imperium was so principled? First, it has to do with the chaos of the Long Night which finally exhausted slavery as a viable way to build an interstellar state (Pocket Empires, sure but not a hegemony), plus those Terrans bred contaminated the locals so much that one outside original Vilani sphere, it was impossible to know who was who. And, lastly, the Imperium saw perfectly competitive capitalism, as the last best human system which has no truck or trade with slavers (in theory at least).

 

[Zutroi]

Hmmm, kinda surprised no one here has brought up the Vor from Lois McMaster Bujold's books...


A star-travel capable culture constructed entirely on personal oaths of allegiance to an Emperor. This could definitely be worth playing around with!

 

[aramis]

Hmmm, kinda surprised no one here has brought up the Vor from Lois McMaster Bujold's books...


A star-travel capable culture constructed entirely on personal oaths of allegiance to an Emperor. This could definitely be worth playing around with!

Unfortunately, SJG got the license....

The Barrayaran Empire is more than that. It's a proper feudal system; local officials swear to their count, not the emperor. Their count swears to the Emperor, as does his heir. All military officers (save a count's armsmen) swear to the emperor. I presume the enlisted do as well, but we don't see enough of them. Most local officials are in fact 20-year men, but still.

And Komar is actually NOT run on the same system; it's got an appointed governor, but the local governement is a variation on a republic. The republic, however, is answerable to the Emperor and his governor.

Sergyar's Count is the Viceroy.

So we have several levels

• Emperor
• Council of Counts (individual members sworn to Emperor)
• Imperial Servants: Viceroys, Imperial Governors, Auditors, Flag and General Officers, Captain of ImpSec, Counts as agents of the Emperor (Sworn to the person and office of Emperor; presumably, a legitimate heir should automatically inherit)
• Counts as heads of Districts (Sworn personally to the Emperor)
• A Count's 20 Armsmen (Sworn personally to count)
• District officials (Sworn to Count as office)
• Local officials (Sworn to Count as office)

It's great fun as a read, and in good times, not a bad place to live. At least not if you're fit and you're vor.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

It depends on what species you are.

Zhodani Knight Level Nobles are leaders of intendant orders or thought police precincts.

Aslan Knights are all warlords, each in charge of a small tribal fleet, or a battalion sized army equipped to origin tech levels

Imperial Knights act in accordance with thier order, and it's guidelines. These can be extreme in everything from fashion to behavior. There are thousands of orders and all they need is a nod from the throne to bs legitimate. This benefits in al kinds of tax and trade breaks and specials. the downside is, things like mandatory state functions, appearances, and appearances (and thier troops) at battles

Solomani don't have a nobility, but the closest thing to a knight would be like some kind of high level Party Hardliner/fanatic. Like a commisar or a ranking SS Officer.

Federation "knight" Level operatives range from autonomous law officers to Folk Hero Level storytellers.

Vargr Knights get a corsair, and are a Pirate by birth.

(cont)

 

[jatay3]

In responses to both excesses of the previous Imperia, the Third Imperium abolished serfdom within its borders. The First Imperium being a classic plutocracy relied heavily upon a caste system in which the workers were effectively slaves/serfs. Emancipation by the Terrans only accelerated the decline and never fully abolished the practices that were centuries ingrained...combined with opportunistic Terran administrators or those who simply wanted to be King. Why the Third Imperium was so principled? First, it has to do with the chaos of the Long Night which finally exhausted slavery as a viable way to build an interstellar state (Pocket Empires, sure but not a hegemony), plus those Terrans bred contaminated the locals so much that one outside original Vilani sphere, it was impossible to know who was who. And, lastly, the Imperium saw perfectly competitive capitalism, as the last best human system which has no truck or trade with slavers (in theory at least).

I picture the Imperium's free enterprise as being rather more pronounced in theory then practice sometimes. The Megacorporations seem more Mercantileist in conception then Smithian.
Also it allows for a more subtle relationship with the Imperium. It is a way to use the Imperium as a foil without using it as a classic Evil Empire. One can picture the Imperium as
having a strong and disruptive cultural pressure on smaller societies, and picture the megacorporations as threatening to small business. In a way Free Traders can be pictured
as mounting an "economic resistance" to the megas.

The heroes I picture as "Space Cossacks" as TV Tropes calls it; as frontiersmen living on the edge of civilization, because the Imperium is to stiffling. However the Imperium is not evil per se. Sometimes they appear as referee's and honest brokers, sometimes as worthy opponents, and sometimes as a big, ponderous, and clumsy giant whom they wish to avoid. Sometimes they also appear as allies. They provide tremendous material benefits, order, and technology and it is agreed that the Imperium should exist. But it is also felt that sophant dignity demands that there should be an alternative.

This notion was played with in Firefly but not played out and the Alliance ended up becoming another Evil Empire. Perhaps it was to subtle for the screen.

 

[jatay3]

IMTU the closest thing to knights(in the country of the Big Darned Heroes) are the Patricians and the Matrons. These are not just male and female titles, but they reflect the focus of their training. The first focus on collective survival, the second on keeping society intact(though that is really a vague summery). For instance, war, foreign trade and power politics would be taught to the first; while administration, local trade, local politics, and clan customs and rituals to the second. They jointly comprise what is a technocratic "rulers guild" rather then a noble class per se. There are hereditary titles, but those are ceremonial. Even those are usually in the gift of the clan chief rather then by primogenoture(I.E. The "Lady of the Enclave" would be from-I forget which clan-but she was either chosen by her chief/clan elders, or a chieftainess devolved it on herself as a retirement package).

For instance I had one, with sublime arrogance tell an Imperial reporter this:

I am not just a noble maam, I am a trained officer. Just being a citizen of my country is enough to make one a noble.
Reporter: Oh? Of what noble rank are your ordinary citizens?
Reply: ARCH-Emperor

Besides all that there is a complex system of honors for various "Great Deeds". Some of them are borrowed from rather ancient customs. One custom they do have is that would-be immigrants can buy citizenship for themselves and their families by doing military service in the army. Only citizens are allowed in the navy though.

 

[jatay3]

It depends on what species you are.



Aslan Knights are all warlords, each in charge of a small tribal fleet, or a battalion sized army equipped to origin tech levels

(cont)

Sort of. It's hard to see how a space-capable society could attain as much influence as some Clans did and be quite that way. Corsair bands yes, but not a major Aslan clan.

I would expect a moderated form of the Warlord model. For one thing clans would by highly structured societies. Another is that they would not survive by continuous plunder like your classical warlord. Of course much of the civilized side of Aslan would be provided by the Clan females.

Imaging what a tribal society in space would be like is difficult. In the human society of my heroes, clans are just that, clans. When they wish to act in common they form confederations and federations. The Aslan seem to form small pocket empires that are run by single clans. One point to remember is that a lot of those are composed of client clans, but still. Another is that in fact, similar human societies do exist in which the tribal ethos is maintained into tens of thousands. The McWhatevers for instance might maintain a nominal
loyalty to their chiefs in Scotland to this day. But that is usually an "Authenticist" sort of thing. One can imagine if it actually was an important aspect of most McWhatever's lives. If for instance the Chief of McWhatever could raise a private war of vengeance if the Al Queda killed a McWhatever, it would get at what Aslan are like.

Another idea for comprehending Aslan is thinking about Jews and Sikhs. Those are religions but they are also to a large degree, tribes and can maintain that ethos a long way(No insult is intended to any Jews or Sikhs reading this by the way; I don't regard tribal loyalty in itself as necessarily uncivilized; in fact I often admire it). In fact the closest human analogue to Aslan may indeed by Sikhs with their ethnic cohesion and warlike traditions.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I disagree, I see the Solomani as more the "Old South" with levening of Upper Crust British Colonial paternalism as Golan stated, with some small-f fascist like Benny the Moose and his Italian fascist party. I also see the Solomani Upper crust, and middle class wannabes as "Victorian" in manners, and outlook to some extent. I see the leaders all being from similar schools in a sort of "Old school tie" sort of event. But then again, I LIKE the Solomani.

They actually seem more like the Soviet Union, compete with SolSec as either the KGB or GRU. From what I've read there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of Earth culture left, other than the unifying "solomani" ideal. But maybe that's just my interpreation.

 

[Sir Brad]

Apart from the "Solomani Cause" the Earthers in Exile are all over the map Politically and Culturally ranging from Petty Fascists and other assorted Despots, through Fed-Tech and Republics, on to Representative Democracies and even going as far as Woolly Liberal Communes.

as long as you believe in the Pre-Eminence of Terran Humans your apples, nothing from stopping a Sir Bart from the Fed-Tech world of Somewhere being a Knight on par with those in the Arthurian Myth, or Dame Lisa from the Con-Monarch of Someplaceelse being Knighted for Services to the Crown (and Solomani Cause).

 

[jatay3]

I presume a conservative phase of social development and a tendency toward nostalgia. Perhaps the Vilani influence, perhaps just because that is the normal way of humans(modernism is really only 500 sum years old and may wear itself out sooner or later). In any case the need for this is to justify the prevalence of customs that are implausible assuming 3000 of continuous development.

Also some of the obvious "retro-ness" from the point of view of 3000 years into the future can simply be a deliberate shout out to nostalgia for aesthetic or propagandistic(it seems whenever rulers want a real show, they do use old-fashioned imagery so it can be believed)purposes.

 

[kafka47]

The Megacorps do certainly exert a mercantile capitalism over a Smithian conception...but they still do have to compete with the smaller players. So, the guiding principle of Cleon was probably influenced by Schumpeter (much as we are in the modern era). However, we do see in Schumpeter the exhaustion of the entrepreneur in favour of becoming a bureaucrat within a centrally planned system...which fits nicely with the Imperium. Megacorps may indeed be competitive but they would rather stifle the competition and absorb innovation. Having said that, it has been well documented that even the Megacorporations compete sometimes with themselves due to the vastness of the Imperium.