far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hi secretagent. We could probably use some real life guidance on these boards. Know any good references avaiable online that aren't too heavy on legalese lingo?
Chartering Vessels rather than buying them...
- Thread starter jchurchill
- Start date
jchurchill
SOC-12
I'm just an old Jack-of-all-Trades, doing the best that I can through research and extrapolation.
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I think that describes most of us here.
In this case, though, I'm not sure you've made allowance for the scale and limitations of trade in Traveller (particularly communications lag and laissez faire Imperial policy), so I'm probing to see whether my rationale still holds up once we agree on the premises.
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I try to factor that into the overall game which drove some players crazy because they are used to instant communication. [that was 1977 to about 1985 -- with cellphines and e-mail the effect is far worse. I tell them to imagine the world before the telegraph. A hard thing to do]
Imperial laissez faire certainly in world governments but not in interstellar travel. The US government's love affair with the commerce clause and the early caselaw protecting federal admiralty jurisdiction show that each state could regulate certian types of trade unless it crossed state or international boundaries.
"Traveller already strongly implies (through the existance of skipping, hijacking, and piracy) that "arresting" deadbeats in this setting is often easier said than done -- in fact, it was deliberately designed that way, since this promotes player initiative (and thus adventure) in other areas as well."
And it's not that easy on planet Earth either. I have chased vessels halfway arounnd the world and waited up to two years before the ship returned to a US jurisdiction where it could be arrested. I guess I should have said that it was possible but not easy. I use the Scout Service to hunt them down sometimes.
"That being the case, the bond or collateral which would be required to support a bare-hull charter has to very nearly equal the value of the ship itself."
Actually in real world terms a bond can be had for a relatively small percentage of payment..it's the bond company that puts up and gets burned. But yes, demise charters are generally used more by larger corporations and you migh t be surprised at how often those charters are breached.
There is a technical term for individual shipowners who charter their vessels to other individuals, without their own crew aboard or the assets to support extensive skip-tracing: they are called "suckers."
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Agreed. an intelligence level of 5 or 6 is usually called for.
"I had never run across the term "demise charter," or I might have used that instead of "bare-hull.""
A minor quibble really. Demise charter is used more often in legal texts and documents and not so much in daily use or by non-laywer vessel brokers. Several years of admiralty law practice --
Before I lost access to this site last week I tried to post more info -- inlcuding mention of the older treatise -- Gilmore & Black -- Admiralty Law. [1975]. An excellent overview of all aspects od admiralty law and some of it quite useful in adapting to Traveller.
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I think that describes most of us here.
In this case, though, I'm not sure you've made allowance for the scale and limitations of trade in Traveller (particularly communications lag and laissez faire Imperial policy), so I'm probing to see whether my rationale still holds up once we agree on the premises.
=================================================
I try to factor that into the overall game which drove some players crazy because they are used to instant communication. [that was 1977 to about 1985 -- with cellphines and e-mail the effect is far worse. I tell them to imagine the world before the telegraph. A hard thing to do]
Imperial laissez faire certainly in world governments but not in interstellar travel. The US government's love affair with the commerce clause and the early caselaw protecting federal admiralty jurisdiction show that each state could regulate certian types of trade unless it crossed state or international boundaries.
"Traveller already strongly implies (through the existance of skipping, hijacking, and piracy) that "arresting" deadbeats in this setting is often easier said than done -- in fact, it was deliberately designed that way, since this promotes player initiative (and thus adventure) in other areas as well."
And it's not that easy on planet Earth either. I have chased vessels halfway arounnd the world and waited up to two years before the ship returned to a US jurisdiction where it could be arrested. I guess I should have said that it was possible but not easy. I use the Scout Service to hunt them down sometimes.
"That being the case, the bond or collateral which would be required to support a bare-hull charter has to very nearly equal the value of the ship itself."
Actually in real world terms a bond can be had for a relatively small percentage of payment..it's the bond company that puts up and gets burned. But yes, demise charters are generally used more by larger corporations and you migh t be surprised at how often those charters are breached.
There is a technical term for individual shipowners who charter their vessels to other individuals, without their own crew aboard or the assets to support extensive skip-tracing: they are called "suckers."
==================================================
Agreed. an intelligence level of 5 or 6 is usually called for.
"I had never run across the term "demise charter," or I might have used that instead of "bare-hull.""
A minor quibble really. Demise charter is used more often in legal texts and documents and not so much in daily use or by non-laywer vessel brokers. Several years of admiralty law practice --
Before I lost access to this site last week I tried to post more info -- inlcuding mention of the older treatise -- Gilmore & Black -- Admiralty Law. [1975]. An excellent overview of all aspects od admiralty law and some of it quite useful in adapting to Traveller.
jchurchill
SOC-12
Far TRader,
hello. my e-mail to you bounced back for some reason. I'll have another stab later today.
Re Copyright and trademark info on the web:
That's a bit of a tough call because most of what I know is heavy in legalese. It's what people pay me for. However:
http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/
http://law.duke.edu/copyright/index.htm
http://www.law.duke.edu/copyright/face/home.htm
look to the FAQ of the first and the entire pages of the third website for some guidance.
hello. my e-mail to you bounced back for some reason. I'll have another stab later today.
Re Copyright and trademark info on the web:
That's a bit of a tough call because most of what I know is heavy in legalese. It's what people pay me for. However:
http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/
http://law.duke.edu/copyright/index.htm
http://www.law.duke.edu/copyright/face/home.htm
look to the FAQ of the first and the entire pages of the third website for some guidance.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
D'oh
Of course
Thanks for the links.jchurchill
SOC-12
I'm personally* very much an advocate of the "weak Imperium" approach to canon -- emphasis on the word unable, used twice in the quotation above, versus unwilling.
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An all powerful Imperium does spoil game flexibility but to be truthful I began my road to heresy fairly early. IMTU, the empires are much smaller much less space to patrol. Of course there is also far more totally unknown and uncharted space in the way I have set things up. But your point is well taken.
To me, this implies that the threshold for Imperial intervention in contract disputes (or even Grand Theft Starship) is very high indeed.
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Certainly the Imperial forces have better things to do than hunt down debtors and stolen starships but I have made provision for a system of doing so. [If nothing else then to keep thievery in some sort of check. Most players hate to pay bills but it keeps them from becoming too lazy.
The passage suggests that two worlds could come to blows over piracy disguised as charter fraud, and the Imperium would still do a risk-benefit analysis before deciding whether to intervene at all.
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Small disputes and disagreements --even minor wars might work as long as it does not threaten interstellar trade in general.
I would add that the quote from Mercenary implies that world politics and world conflicts are ignored. The unspoken axiom here is that whatever mess a planet makes of its internal affairs is fine. However, disruption of interstellar trade even on a subsector wide basis would trigger Imperial intervention. At least that is my view for what ever that is worth. I'm also trained in big central goverment as was for a few years a bureaucrat in an arm of a large federal government. [Bureaucrat-3, pistol-1 probably but I would wish it were the other way around.]
Otherwise, we seem to be in fair agreement.
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Indeed. I am brooding on your observations and consider them very helpful.
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An all powerful Imperium does spoil game flexibility but to be truthful I began my road to heresy fairly early. IMTU, the empires are much smaller much less space to patrol. Of course there is also far more totally unknown and uncharted space in the way I have set things up. But your point is well taken.
To me, this implies that the threshold for Imperial intervention in contract disputes (or even Grand Theft Starship) is very high indeed.
===========================================
Certainly the Imperial forces have better things to do than hunt down debtors and stolen starships but I have made provision for a system of doing so. [If nothing else then to keep thievery in some sort of check. Most players hate to pay bills but it keeps them from becoming too lazy.
The passage suggests that two worlds could come to blows over piracy disguised as charter fraud, and the Imperium would still do a risk-benefit analysis before deciding whether to intervene at all.
================================================
Small disputes and disagreements --even minor wars might work as long as it does not threaten interstellar trade in general.
I would add that the quote from Mercenary implies that world politics and world conflicts are ignored. The unspoken axiom here is that whatever mess a planet makes of its internal affairs is fine. However, disruption of interstellar trade even on a subsector wide basis would trigger Imperial intervention. At least that is my view for what ever that is worth. I'm also trained in big central goverment as was for a few years a bureaucrat in an arm of a large federal government. [Bureaucrat-3, pistol-1 probably but I would wish it were the other way around.]
Otherwise, we seem to be in fair agreement.
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Indeed. I am brooding on your observations and consider them very helpful.
Really?
But, I thought that the lesson of Repo Man was: "People just explode sometimes, natural causes."
First, once again the Dreaded Thread Necromancer makes an appearance...meaning I am posting this and then finishing the thread...
But, I thought that the lesson of Repo Man was: "People just explode sometimes, natural causes."
Yep, tasty thread *chuckles evilly*
This stuff is sweet and being a Junior Lawyer wanna be with some JoT and Bureaucracy myself this stuff is gold, no, iridium. Awesome.
Read regularly my West's National Security and Foreign Relations Law, by Glennon and Frank (sp?), so I have a genuine interest in the Relations Law of the Imperium and Member and Non-members and funny how in the good old Age of Sail the US was hearing all sorts of case in the Admiralty and Supreme Courts. Fascinating stuff....wow the US did some hinky things in the 1800s, yep those rebellious early years...*shakes head* wow we lie to ourselves in the US alot about what we've done, but wow the case law makes for interesting reading...if you really dig law. Some crazy wisdoms and knowledge to be found in case law.
And since some of the Age of Sail stuff deals a lot with Neutrality and Prizes. Oh and don't mess up taking Prize....keep a Lawyer next to you and have the Midshipman keep him safe while you consult on the latest precedents. :devil:
This stuff is sweet and being a Junior Lawyer wanna be with some JoT and Bureaucracy myself this stuff is gold, no, iridium. Awesome.
Read regularly my West's National Security and Foreign Relations Law, by Glennon and Frank (sp?), so I have a genuine interest in the Relations Law of the Imperium and Member and Non-members and funny how in the good old Age of Sail the US was hearing all sorts of case in the Admiralty and Supreme Courts. Fascinating stuff....wow the US did some hinky things in the 1800s, yep those rebellious early years...*shakes head* wow we lie to ourselves in the US alot about what we've done, but wow the case law makes for interesting reading...if you really dig law. Some crazy wisdoms and knowledge to be found in case law.
And since some of the Age of Sail stuff deals a lot with Neutrality and Prizes. Oh and don't mess up taking Prize....keep a Lawyer next to you and have the Midshipman keep him safe while you consult on the latest precedents. :devil:
Bare-Yachting
If I may dive in, I think a more attractive set of terms could help for the article and appeal. Bare Yacht and Bare Trader depending on personal or business use. Also, having done the moorings bare boats on numerous occasions, I would think that taking the boat is simply piracy. Perhaps that is what's being said.
For their contracts, yeah one is responsible for the vessel and damages but also needed to have a fairly clear route planned. Assuming they only charter j1-2 vessels any communications channels will send out word of a missing vessel far in advance. For example, in the British Virgin Islands its a big deal to take it to the US Virgin Islands even though their in plane sight...
If I may dive in, I think a more attractive set of terms could help for the article and appeal. Bare Yacht and Bare Trader depending on personal or business use. Also, having done the moorings bare boats on numerous occasions, I would think that taking the boat is simply piracy. Perhaps that is what's being said.
For their contracts, yeah one is responsible for the vessel and damages but also needed to have a fairly clear route planned. Assuming they only charter j1-2 vessels any communications channels will send out word of a missing vessel far in advance. For example, in the British Virgin Islands its a big deal to take it to the US Virgin Islands even though their in plane sight...