Cash in Traveller

[aramis]

Except that, Marc, you're reading in limitations I'm not claiming. You're apparently blinded by your own work history to seeing things not present in my analysis.

Validation is what you're on about. They find out about it via independent means and may or may not expect the transaction. They are all honored based upon the trust of the sender by the destination.

Stocks, bonds, etc, are irrelevant; the comparison needed is the closest instrument, which for a letter of credit, those are EFTs, Cashier's Cheques, and Traveler's Cheques. Only one of these, in the real world, uses validation (EFT). The others can not be negotiated until the destination is presented the instrument; EFT is inherently point-to-point. It doesn't really matter if the Cheque method is digital or physical documents, it still is issued, carried without the issuer knowing the destination, presented and eventually redeemed or rejected.

The thing is, a Cashier's cheque or Traveller's Cheque is likely to be honored within a distance inversely proportional to range and proportional to the reputation of the bank of issue.

If I'm going a short range, with an untargeted instrument (Cashier's cheque, Traveler's Cheque), validation means a broadcast of it to all banks in some range.

In the current US economy, that cheque is verified electronically almost instantly, and it's been that way for about 30 years (albeit by phone authorization in the 70's) and now are even electronically presented in full, signature included, within seconds at some places (wal*mart). Validation ahead of time is not needed in the instant communications.

but i the 3I, I can't expect to cash any cheques outside the broadcast range, without a full 2-way comm lag. If I hop my J3 yacht at Regina, and EFT to Mora, I can beat the EFT... since the XBoat route is 12 hops, and I can make it in 8 jumps at 11 days each (land and refuel) for 88 days, vs the 86 day average for XMail... but the X-mail is usually gonna beat me. If my yacht is J4, I can shave a couple... 6 jumps... and beat the X-mail EFT.

If I don't ask for a validation to be sent ahead, and carry a cheque from regina to Mora, I can expect a 6-month hold... as it averages some 173 days to verify and transfer the funds.

And credit/debit cards will almost certainly require either a transfer or validation be sent via separate transport... and the funds will be tied up based upon the size of the transfer.

The comm lags will slow down the whole negotiation process. just crossing a sector and back is a 4-month lag; round trip to capital from the marches is a year+. The imperial currency is thus a fiat currency for most, even if backed, since the reserves will be months away.

We're talking 15th C China-England kinds of times in sector. And letters of credit were not well valued on that route...

 

[rancke]

In the current US economy, that cheque is verified electronically almost instantly, and it's been that way for about 30 years (albeit by phone authorization in the 70's) and now are even electronically presented in full, signature included, within seconds at some places (wal*mart). Validation ahead of time is not needed in the instant communications.

But before the day's of near-instant electronic verification, Traveler's cheques were used precisely because verification was not needed. You stepped up to the window, documented that you were indeed the person the cheque had been issued to, signed it in front of the clerk, and got your money. 30 years ago when I vacationed in England once or twice each year, I cashed cheques in my hotels on numerous occasions, and I can assure you that the concierges didn't bother to validate them first.

According to Wikipedia, Traveler's cheques were first issued in 1772 for use in 90 European cities. Back then it must have taken weeks to validate such cheques.

I but in the 3I, I can't expect to cash any cheques outside the broadcast range, without a full 2-way comm lag. If I hop my J3 yacht at Regina, and EFT to Mora, I can beat the EFT... since the XBoat route is 12 hops, and I can make it in 8 jumps at 11 days each (land and refuel) for 88 days, vs the 86 day average for XMail... but the X-mail is usually gonna beat me. If my yacht is J4, I can shave a couple... 6 jumps... and beat the X-mail EFT.

Side note: That's another reason why someone other than the Imperium would invest in jump-6 couriers. Financial transactions.

If I don't ask for a validation to be sent ahead, and carry a cheque from Regina to Mora, I can expect a 6-month hold... as it averages some 173 days to verify and transfer the funds.

Not if you're carrying a letter of credit. The whole point of a letter of credit is that it's issued by someone that the prospective redeemer trusts.

We're talking 15th C China-England kinds of times in sector. And letters of credit were not well valued on that route...

I find that difficult to believe. Surely a letter of credit issued by the East India Company in London would be accepted by company factors everywhere?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Not if you're carrying a letter of credit. The whole point of a letter of credit is that it's issued by someone that the prospective redeemer trusts.


I find that difficult to believe. Surely a letter of credit issued by the East India Company in London would be accepted by company factors everywhere?


Hans

By the company's men, yes. By the Chinese, not at all. No trust. That's the thing; a Letter of credit was only good when the issuer was trusted. Traveler's Cheques were issued by the major banks, and major contracts signed to get them accepted. by the 1970's, they were subject to verification. (AmEx was far more accepted than Traveler's Express, for example; local bank issued ones often were treated as out of state cheques and rejected out of hand; my Army training center issued Traveler's Express, and they were NOT accepted by half the places. My AmEx ones were accepted anywhere I tried using them.)

by 1770, mail systems were reliable, and pan-european mail was readily functional; the cheques could be negotiated readily if issued by a major bank, as batches could be sent, and those major banks issuing them were themselves widely known and trusted.

Travel time of X-mail from Mora to Regina: 12 jumps, 86 days or so, ±10%

 

[rancke]

By the company's men, yes. By the Chinese, not at all. No trust. That's the thing; a Letter of credit was only good when the issuer was trusted. Traveler's Cheques were issued by the major banks, and major contracts signed to get them accepted. by the 1970's, they were subject to verification. (AmEx was far more accepted than Traveler's Express, for example; local bank issued ones often were treated as out of state cheques and rejected out of hand; my Army training center issued Traveler's Express, and they were NOT accepted by half the places. My AmEx ones were accepted anywhere I tried using them.)

So if you wanted to buy something from a Chinese, you cashed your letter of credit with the Company and paid the Chinese in silver. I don't see the problem. As for acceptance, I told my bank I was going to England and they provided me with Traveler's cheques that were accepted in England. Again, I don't see a problem for anyone with enough sense to pour sand out of his boot as long as the instructions are printed on the sole.

Travel time of X-mail from Mora to Regina: 12 jumps, 86 days or so, ±10%

Travel time of SmartMail from Mora to Regina: Four jumps (Mora-Heroni-Rhylanor-Echiste-Regina), 28 days or so. But that's a different discussion, and more or less irrelevant to this one, as I don't see any problems even if the communication time was three months or six or nine or twelve. Regina is the capital of an entire duchy. So is Mora. Surely the two worlds would have two banks solid enough to trust each other? If not, buy a letter of credit from Hortalez & Cie.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

First off, I'm ignorant and have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what the precise difference would be between a letter of credit, credit, an IOU, debt,... But thats ok. While it is fine to discuss how things used to be or currently are, Traveller takes place in the far future where my imagination of how things could be is probably just as good as anyone else's.

IMTU The Imperium protects and encourages trade between systems. This includes providing a financial system for conducting trade easily and quickly.

IMTU, 'Credit cards' do not exist the same way they do now.

IMTU, 'Credit' devices do exist. The most common being the credit stick. Credit refers to the CRImp. A credit stick is like a portable banking account. Don't lose it and don't damage it! Without it you can't even take out funds you deposited at the very same bank office one hour earlier. If you lose the credit stick you encounter long delays as the different bank branches all synchronize transaction logs and account information. People usually don't put all their eggs in one basket [too close to easter so I had to say it]. Instead they have multiple accounts and sticks.

IMTU, All Star Ports of a certain class or higher and all Scout and Navy bases have a branch of the Imperial Bank that will perform most transactions. Most transactions do not require anything except the clients credit stick.

IMTU, If for some reason the credit device is not accepted you convert funds into CRImps or whatever tangible items being accepted as a means of exchange wherever you are going.

IMTU, only Imperial banks have the ability to add funds to a credit device.

IMTU, Most ships have the ability to do transactions the same as a business would. Deducting amounts from the credit device. Ships also typically have a stash of CRImps locked safely away so they can provide them to crew and passengers for use in systems that don't accept the credit device.

All the above refers to the Imperial financial system which includes Star Ports.

IMTU, local financial systems can take just about any form but most Imperial worlds will support the Imperial financial system to some degree even if it is just a bank in the capital that will exchange CRImps and local currency.

I don't have the resources that other people do. If anything is strictly contradicted by 'canon' please let me know, but please provide a reference.

By the company's men, yes. By the Chinese, not at all. No trust.

Not knowing my history, I wouldn't know what level of trust the Chinese would have but it probably varied depending on location.

Personally I believe that one place [Chinese Village or Traveller world] that dealt with 'the company' on a regular basis would be more trusting (if 'the company' deserved it) than another more remote location that never heard of the company.

I'm not sure if this matters though as long as there is an outpost of the company [in China or on another Traveller world] that will perform the financial transaction required.

On a separate note: Like foreign currency in some unstable countries, you may find worlds in Traveller where there is more trust in Imperial financial instruments than their own.

Just a thought: Even with todays instant communication I can't take credit I get at JC Penny and use it at Maceys even if they reside in the very same shopping mall. How about a store gift card or gift certificate? I can use my Visa card at both establishments though. Is credit accepted at Maceys? I can see how people can disagree and yet both still be right.

I don't understand the financial systems of the past when there was no instant communication but transactions still took place and I don't need to know the details of the financial system of the future where I allow such transactions to occur.

 

[mmbutter]

Offline Electronic Cash:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_money#Off-line_.27anonymous.27_electronic_money

 

[aramis]

Not knowing my history, I wouldn't know what level of trust the Chinese would have but it probably varied depending on location.

Personally I believe that one place [Chinese Village or Traveller world] that dealt with 'the company' on a regular basis would be more trusting (if 'the company' deserved it) than another more remote location that never heard of the company.

I'm not sure if this matters though as long as there is an outpost of the company [in China or on another Traveller world] that will perform the financial transaction required.

Considering that, outside the port area, posession by a chinese national of outside currencies or even writings was punishable by Chinese law, unless licensed for them... And non-Chinese were forbidden to leave the enclaves without escorts and permits. Same with Japan. Specie was to be traded at the gates... for Chinese currencies... most of which were not specie. (In fact, most were backed by Rice, they were reserve token currencies.)

So if there was no local factor for the EIC, the EIC letter of credit was only good for deals with other Europeans, ANZAC, and Americans. A chinese couldn't afford to get caught with it. Japan was a little less paranoid about foreign specie, and more paranoid about foreigners.

On the other hand, India would recognize the EIC letter... but then, the factor was far more likely to be present.

 

[Icosahedron]

It strikes me that this discussion is missing the point of validation/verification.

As I see it, the real problem is this:
If I carry a letter of credit for Cr10,000 from the Company HQ to a Company branch at my destination, how does the branch cashier know whether I obtained the letter from HQ or from a good forger for Cr1000 at my last port of call?

This is the real purpose of the checks, it's not a matter of trusting the source, but of trusting the bearer. The checks are simply to confirm that the document is genuine. Presumably validation examines the material, holographic designs, embedded chips or whatever on the actual document, while verification asks the HQ if they actually issued the document.

If financial information outruns trade IYTU and if financial information is broadcast as a matter of course and every institution on every planet in the Imperium carries a complete list of transactions carried out everywhere, both checks can be performed on the spot within a day (when the day's transactions are updated). There is no need for an 'unexpected' presentation to require a round-trip query and reply.

If, however, financial information is carried aboard trade ships and cannot necessarily outrun trade, and/or financial information is only transmitted to destinations where it is expected to be needed, then there is a possibility of unexpected presentations (eg if a ship breaks down and the crew need money for repairs on a world where they - and the issuer - were not expecting to present the document)

Even so, the enquiry would not need to run the round trip to the source, but only to the nearest repository of financial data (Sector or subsector capital, perhaps) to which the data has been broadcast.

The fill-up and carry device would still need the same checks to ensure it hadn't been 'filled' by a forger and that the bearer really had been issued with that money at HQ.

 

[aramis]

Problem, Icos, is that, assuming a mere 15 chunks at 6N0 (6 bits, no parity, 0 stop bits) encoding, you're talking Cr0.0045 per jump per transaction logged. The costs of sending significant amounts of data add up quickly at the canonical Cr1 per 2 kilobits (actually, Cr10 per 20 kilobits, per TTA)... and the transaction records will eat up a lot of data.

And the data sent will likely be much longer than that; probably 150-250 ASCII bytes (1200-2000 bits) per secure transaction... or Cr0.6 to Cr1 per jump per transaction, so the validation data (which is different than physical validation of the instrument) will probably be set only when paid for... but likely be charged to customers higher unless sent as a group batch...

Current costs per kb transferred are pretty low; I get 10 Gigabytes per month for $15 anywhere on world, and can divvy that how I want... and an additional $5 per 2 Gigabytes over... let's just use the overage rate. $5 per 17,179,869,184. bits
$0.000005820766091346741 per 20kilobits, vs roughly $35 per jump per 20 kilobits on the xboat routes... about 2 million times the cost per byte...

So it's unlikely a whole lot of data is being sent. And when it is, you can bet it's being charged for at a premium.

Imperial cash can be forged... but the expenses make it impractical, and the required skills make it problematic. MT shows it as 15+, DM+Forgery and DM+(Dex/5), and that's just to pass. Those who can will make a killing... until they get caught. Then they disappear. Quietly, after a very public show trial and order to a penal colony. Which said colony they probably don't arrive at alive.

 

[CosmicGamer]

If I carry a letter of credit for Cr10,000 from the Company HQ to a Company branch at my destination, how does the branch cashier know whether I obtained the letter from HQ or from a good forger for Cr1000 at my last port of call?

Why does this form of financial instrument scare you so much? I see a 'letter of credit' as more secure than a CRImp. It can have electronic chips embedded, biometric data and any number of additional security features. Is it impossible to forge. No.

Any verification process that might be used can be circumvented too.

Imperial cash can be forged... but the expenses make it impractical, and the required skills make it problematic. MT shows it as 15+, DM+Forgery and DM+(Dex/5), and that's just to pass. Those who can will make a killing... until they get caught. Then they disappear. Quietly, after a very public show trial and order to a penal colony. Which said colony they probably don't arrive at alive.

Obviously a transaction for Cr1,000 would be handled a little differently than a transaction for Cr100,000. I don't think a purchase of over Cr100,000 is an impulse buy though - if it is, then a delay in obtaining verification of funds would be a good thing!

Perhaps a verification process is just a hold on the funds until the next xboat arrives (which would vary from system to system). But then as people have said, why can't the 'verification' be sent before the person even departs.

Even if there is a verification process, a criminal can steal a valid letter and then use a fake ID.

Perhaps verification is not of detailed banking transactions but to see if the person doing the transaction is reported as a criminal.

If this type of transaction is still a problem for people in a universe, I still don't see why they don't
1) just 'use' the credit on the world it was issued to obtain something (CRImps, Gold, Fire Water...) that can be used as a medium of exchange at the destination or
2) obtain credit at the destination

aramis in regards to this Chinese issue, it appears there is more going on than how trade is conducted but even with this distrust it still sounds like there was a method of exchange at the gates or in designated locations. On some Traveller worlds outsiders could be restricted to the star port. This restriction can still allow trade and financial exchanges to occur.

Overall, if a system has trade codes then I believe trade exists and some method of doing so without the need for waiting long periods of time (most merchant vessels would be out of business if they had to wait for verification at every port) would also exist.

 

[rancke]

I don't think the question is whether letters of credit present risks in the way of potential theft or fraud, but whether they represent unacceptable risks. Effectively the purchaser of traveler's cheques are making an interest-free loan to the financial institution, which is why some of them offer this service free of charge to its customers. Others charge 1 or 2% of the value, and people are willing to pay that as insurance against theft or loss. If the average loss is less than the average gain, some bank will be willing to run the risk. I've already mentioned Hortalez & Cie which is built on interstellar financial transactions.

Mind you, I think the risks are lower than they were back in the Age of Sail. We've come up with some encryption/verification dodges that they didn't know about back then. Use a, what's it called, on-time pad? and (as I understand it) verification becomes impossible to fake (barring someone physically getting their hands on the 'pad').

But, of course, making forgery impossible is bad for the gaming aspect, since you lose some potential plots and PC opportunities.


Hans

 

[aramis]

One-time pad, not on-time.

Let's look at the costs of sending data around the marches: there are at least 8, probably 9 days worth of xboats (to be able to maintain the schedule and still swap pilots), 6 per day, and a minimum 1/24 excess is required to cover annual maintenance¹. They are MCr70.77 each, and have a probable lifespan of about 70 years², have a crew of 1 engineer who uses a jump course prepared by the tender if he's not also an astrogator, pay LS only for total persons aboard³, and fuel cost is as per refined (Cr500/Td), and Scout Salaries are same as low end officers of the military, Cr1000/month, with a 4-on/2-off schedule resulting in 1.5 crewmen per boat.

Number of Couriers per link:
8 days
x6 per day=48
x25/24 to allow for maintenance downtime =50
x2 for bidirectional = 100
100 xboats per link, and 1.5 tenders per end gives 3 tenders per link⁴

Tender annual costs
3925286 Replacement share MCr274.77/70years
_274770 Annual maintenance
_195000 Crews Salaries 1.5 crews x 13 mo x Cr1000 x10 scts
___5000 Own Ops Fuel, PP1 CT Bk2, 10Td/mo, at Cr 500
_500000 Life Support 12.5 mo x Cr4000 x10 man ⁵
======= ============================================================
4900056 per year

Xboat per jump costs
25275 Replacement share MCr70.77/(70 years x 40 jumps per year)
_1770 Annual Maintenance share KCr70.77/40jpy
__487 Salaries KCr13*1.5scts/40jpy
_1143 LS =2000 * 8/14
20000 Fuel 40t xCr500 ⁶
_3676 tender share 3tenders/100xboats x Cr4900056 /40jpy
===== ============================================================
52351 total per jump
2094040 Annual, x 40 JPY

Roughly MCr 224 per link per year...


So it needs at least 5236 ≤20kilobit messages to pay for the jump. That's 31416 messages per day per direction. I'm not quite certain that's reasonable for many of the worlds... but it gives us an idea of how much traffic there MUST be to pay for the system; it probably generates far more. Half the cost is replacement costs... note that I stopped counting at 60, and estimate about 70 links on the marches inside the imperium... so the net in the marches alone is GCr15. Less than Cr0.5 per sophont... so it could be tax-subsidy.

So the question becomes, will the banks have parallel routing? I doubt it. Reduced costs due to large volumes of data, probably. Still, we're talking data costs millions of times those of modern (or likely even on-world)... so only important data goes.


¹: except under MGT. But where possible, I'm using CT OTU numbers
²: derived from CT(s11), TNE, T4, and MGT data, but basically a swag.
³: differs from MGT, but matches other traveller editions
¹: systems with 3+ links provide the excess needed for systems with only 1 link
⁵: 2 weeks down for maintenance
⁶: refined by the tender

 

[rancke]

A courier communication network that only links the subsector capitals would be considerably cheaper than the X-boat network you postulate, Wil.

Number of links (Links that might not exist in brackets):

Jewell-Regina: 2
[Jewell-Frenzie: 3]
Regina-Aramis: 2
Regina-Frenzie: 2
Regina-Lanth: 2
Regina Rhylanor: 2
Aramis-Rhylanor: 2
Frenzie-Lanth: 1
Lanth-Rhylanor (via Ivendo): 2
Lanth-Lunion (via Ivendo): +1 (i.e. two links, but one has been accounted for already)
Rhylanor-Lunion (via Heroni): 2
Rhylanor-Mora (via Heroni): +1
Lunion-Glisten: 3
Lunion-Mora (via Heroni): +1
[Lunion-Trin: 3]
Mora-Glisten: 3
Mora-Trin: 3
Glisten-Trin: 2

37 links tops. Several could be left out if a fuel station could be set up on Marastan and if communication times of an extra link is accepted for the routes in brackets (i.e. going Jewell-Frenzie via Regina is four jumps instead of three, but all four accounted for with the Jewell-Regina and Regina-Frenzie routes). OTOH, a few more links are needed if you want to to incorporate important non-capital worlds (e.g. two more links to include Aramanx and Junidy). On the gripping hand, place like Strouden and Porozlo will be in contact with the subsector capitals by regular commercial traffic.

Number of couriers per link for one courier per day would be around 22 (average ten days per jump and 10% extra for maintenance and redundancy).

Cost per bit... What would be the cost of NOT having financial information in a timely manner? That is, Rich Noble with private jump-6 yacht hears about stock movement Rhylanor, jumps to Mora and buys/sells short, information reach Mora by X-boat, Richard Noble makes a killing at the expense of the financial institutions that sold/bought his shares. Perhaps the various stock exchanges on the various worlds would willingly bear the entire cost of such a courier network.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I don't postulate such a network; I counted canonical links (to at least 60, and had about 10 left), and the numbers are the requisites to meet the one per 4 hours listed in S11 and TTA. (IMTU, I use 18 per link... 1 per day). The canonical XBoat system has no normal wait longer than 4 hours.

The Postulations involved: crew at 1.5 instead of 2 or higher, or worse, pulling the ships off the line when the pilot is. getting 40 jumps per year... 1 per 8 days plus down time for maintenance

My own TU is about 1/6th those numbers, as I have one X-boat a day; the gains of one per four hours are lost in the arrival noise, where ±4 hours is under ±1σ.

As for the speed of travel, IMTU, stocks are bought and sold to/from "the market" only on world of issue. The sale isn't finalized until the issuing exchange is notified. People are aware of this and cautious about fire-sale prices on off-world sales... private transfers are caveat emptor, and, like in the US in the 1810's, if you bought and sold London stocks, you could possibly make a killing or lose a bundle by beating news back to london... but it didn't break the system then, and in many ways, the system is overtouchy due to more rapid information (so said PBS's Frontline, ca 1999, on the 1987 crash).

 

[rancke]

I don't postulate such a network; I counted canonical links (to at least 60, and had about 10 left), and the numbers are the requisites to meet the one per 4 hours listed in S11 and TTA. (IMTU, I use 18 per link... 1 per day). The canonical XBoat system has no normal wait longer than 4 hours.

No, but you seem to postulate that the canonical X-boat system is the most efficient meant of communication around. Which puzzles me, since ISTR a post by you where you described the canonical X-boat network as being very inefficient.

Would you accept a description of a TL3 Pony Express analog using bullock-driven carts instead of horses just because the description was canonical? Or taking the high mountain roads instead of the passes through the mountains?As Marc Miller Himself once remarked, "It also has to make sense". If the purpose is to provide speedy communication and it doesn't provide speedy communication, there's something wrong with the picture, or at the very least a crucial piece missing from it.

As for the speed of travel, IMTU, stocks are bought and sold to/from "the market" only on world of issue. The sale isn't finalized until the issuing exchange is notified. People are aware of this and cautious about fire-sale prices on off-world sales... private transfers are caveat emptor, and, like in the US in the 1810's, if you bought and sold London stocks, you could possibly make a killing or lose a bundle by beating news back to london... but it didn't break the system then, and in many ways, the system is overtouchy due to more rapid information (so said PBS's Frontline, ca 1999, on the 1987 crash).

I'm not talking about breaking the system. I'm talking about gaining a valuable advantage by using faster communications than your fellow stockbrokers. An advantage that I suggest may well be so valuable that your fellow stockbrokers would be willing to pay for a courier network to prevent you (and anyone else) from having that advantage.


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

Why does this form of financial instrument scare you so much? I see a 'letter of credit' as more secure than a CRImp. It can have electronic chips embedded, biometric data and any number of additional security features. Is it impossible to forge. No.

It doesn't. My statement covers any financial instrument, I just used the letter of credit as an example.

Any verification process that might be used can be circumvented too. Obviously a transaction for Cr1,000 would be handled a little differently than a transaction for Cr100,000. I don't think a purchase of over Cr100,000 is an impulse buy though - if it is, then a delay in obtaining verification of funds would be a good thing!

Good point, from both sides of the transaction. It might be useful for the other party to have you hanging around a while, giving him more time to watch you.

Perhaps a verification process is just a hold on the funds until the next xboat arrives (which would vary from system to system). But then as people have said, why can't the 'verification' be sent before the person even departs.

Sometimes it can - depends where you're going and how fast your ship is. A typical J1 or J2 trader on an X-boat main shouldn't have a problem.

Even if there is a verification process, a criminal can steal a valid letter and then use a fake ID.

Perhaps verification is not of detailed banking transactions but to see if the person doing the transaction is reported as a criminal.

If this type of transaction is still a problem for people in a universe, I still don't see why they don't
1) just 'use' the credit on the world it was issued to obtain something (CRImps, Gold, Fire Water...) that can be used as a medium of exchange at the destination or
2) obtain credit at the destination

These don't solve the problem.
1) just means that you have to carry huge quantities of barter goods around, which you may not get a good exchange rate for, and
2) puts you in the situation of arranging for credit - for which you need verification of creditworthiness...

Overall, if a system has trade codes then I believe trade exists and some method of doing so without the need for waiting long periods of time (most merchant vessels would be out of business if they had to wait for verification at every port) would also exist.

I agree. If the anti-forgery technology is sufficient, then verification would not be needed in real-time, it would just be a largely-redundant backup. The main check would be on-site forgery validation of both the financial instrument and your ID.

Aramis,
Fortunately for me, I'm not hog-tied by canon. I'll set my own cost of data transfer rather than slavishly follow a number plucked out of the air thirty years ago - especially if that number is likely to upset the economy of the Imperium. After all, 'it also has to make sense'.

 

[aramis]

The XBoat system is probably the most cost effective system in the OTU, simply because it's probably subsidized, and combined with the courier net, has nigh-universal coverage, economies of scale, and having an infrastructure in place.

Yes, more efficient routes COULD be set up, some are canonically present (but not as regular), and plain and simple, cost orders of magnitude more. (Op costs of a J6 are MUCH higher than a J4.)

It doesn't have to be the fastest, either, to be the dominant commo mode. Civil J6 shipping is, pretty much, not going to exist in organized networks; J6 is only better than J4 at ranges of 5-6 and 9+ parsecs, and the extra week isn't worth the higher costs most of the time...

Military and Governmental J6 nets will be special purpose... and can get data to/from the marches & core faster by a month, maybe two... but that extra speed isn't terribly useful, costs a HUGE amount, and is not providing a significant strategic advantage. It does, however, have a huge Canon über-purpose (allowing Norris to declare himself Archduke knowing the emperor is already dead), but it makes little sense for such a net to be present when an optimized J4 net could do almost as well. The military can run it only because the system provides training for the strategic command-control couriers. That said, the CCC net is likely to lose actual advancing warships anyway...

And, just as a historical note, remember, the last couple battles of the war of 1812 were fought a year after the armisist... news hadn't reached the local troops on either side yet... Men were decorated for fighting in a battle of a war that was already over before the battle began. The Imperium will have similar issues.

ANd the canonical J6 run is done by a megacorp as a factor for the Imperial Gov't.

Icosahedron: remember, the lower the cost of a message, the more the system either is subsidized or the more volume of message traffic. The OTU implies 5200+ messages per boat in order to make it pay. Those 5200 messages are, fortunately tiny, so the ship's data probably could be 5200000 messages per ship... but what does it say about your TU if there really is that kind of traffic flow? One could increase the packet size (to something reasonable, like 20 MB instead of 20kb (2.5kB)), but then one also reduces the volume needed for financial data, and for other useful data, and thus reduces the number of messages sent...

CosmicGamer: I'm in agrement with Icosahedron about the problems he mentions. Creditworthiness is a matter of a special kind of reputation. Any kind of financial transfer other than goods or specie relies upon the known creditworthiness of the issuer and/or the bearer.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Perhaps a verification process is just a hold on the funds until the next xboat arrives (which would vary from system to system). But then as people have said, why can't the 'verification' be sent before the person even departs.

Sometimes it can - depends where you're going and how fast your ship is. A typical J1 or J2 trader on an X-boat main shouldn't have a problem.

If 'verification' is secure, perhaps it can even be carried aboard the ship along with the person and their financial instrument.

Bank employee: 'yes your copy looks authentic but let me go get the manager and verify it'

Bank employee takes your copy to the manager The manager looks at what the employee brought in and examines a box that was recently received to check if the serial number on the box is the one required. They also verify that the seal is still intact. The manager then presses their thumb to a biometric reader, inserts an encryption key device that had been hanging around their neck, and enters a code on the keypad to open the box. The manager logs the contents of the box and the other bank employee records as witness. Next the contents of the box have several layers of security before it is finally used for verification.

2) puts you in the situation of arranging for credit - for which you need verification of creditworthiness...

Show the documentation on the ship and have the captain verify you have a job on board and possibly even co-sign.

If the ships 'paperwork' can be examined and determined authentic by customs officials, it should be good enough to be used by a financial institution.

Again, how much verification is done would probably depend on whether it is CR1000 or CR 100,000.

How much would an Imperial Bank at the star port give before requiring a lengthy check of information in other systems? How much would the local bank give out to someone just travelling through utilizing only information the person provides? Perhaps they sell the loan to a bank in the system you hail from.

Regarding all that calculation of the cost of data. I would think that there would be different types of accounts. The vast majority would be system only and no information on these accounts would be sent outside the system unless that is part of some kind of backup data model. Some accounts would be regional, only sharing information in a cluster of worlds. Some might be sub sector accounts. Accounts data might also only be sent at the request of the owner who does so only before they know they are traveling and data is only sent to the system(s) requested.

All costs, high or low, would be incorporated in account fees or charged on a cost basis so the price of such to the bank should not dictate whether it is done. The question is would the customer pay the cost.

 

[rancke]

The XBoat system is probably the most cost effective system in the OTU, simply because it's probably subsidized, and combined with the courier net, has nigh-universal coverage, economies of scale, and having an infrastructure in place.

Cost effective how? It doesn't do what it is supposed to do! If the purpose is to provide speedy communication and it doesn't provide speedy communication, there's something wrong with the picture, or at the very least a crucial piece missing from it. Would you accept a description of a TL3 Pony Express analog using bullock-driven carts (OK, make that stagecoaches ) instead of horses just because the description was canonical? Or taking the high mountain roads instead of the passes through the mountains? As Marc Miller Himself once remarked, "It also has to make sense".

Yes, more efficient routes COULD be set up, some are canonically present (but not as regular), and plain and simple, cost orders of magnitude more. (Op costs of a J6 are MUCH higher than a J4.)

There are two different ways in which the X-boat system is worse than it ought to be. One is the use of jump-4 exclusively instead of jump-1 on 1-parsec links, jump-2 on two parsec links, jump-3 on three parsec links, and jump-5 and jump-6 on selected five and six parsec distances. Across 12 parsecs three jump-4 links may be cheaper than two jump-6 links, everything else being equal (though if you compare one jump-6 connection per week with six jump-4 connections per day, everything else isn't equal; such a jump-6 network would beat the X-boat network handsomely on time and like a big bass drum on price).

The other, and completely distinct, way is the unbelievably, and I use that word deliberately, inefficient way that jump-4 network is supposedly set up. An X-boat message from Regina to Rhylanor would supposedly take about 42 days to get there. A jump-3 liner or freighter gets there in 37 days, a jump-4 liner in 27 (ten days per jump). Mora to Rhylanor takes ten weeks even though it is possible for an X-boat to get there in six by using the canonical X-boat tenders (Jump-4 passenger traffic gets there in 27 days). Boughene to Kinorb gets there in two weeks because of the totally inexplicable detour through Pixie; presumably civilian jump-3 traffic gets there in one.

It doesn't have to be the fastest, either, to be the dominant commo mode. Civil J6 shipping is, pretty much, not going to exist in organized networks; J6 is only better than J4 at ranges of 5-6 and 9+ parsecs, and the extra week isn't worth the higher costs most of the time...

Civil jump-6 traffic doesn't have to be organized to beat any jump-4 network for results. It just has to exist. And a lot of the routes between adjacent subsector capitals are 9+ parsecs. The extra week might not be worth six departures per day, but it only takes one departure every 3 days to guarantee that it's faster than the X-boats. Faster AND cheaper.

Incidentally, J4 is only better than J3 at ranges of 4 and 7+ parsecs...

Military and Governmental J6 nets will be special purpose...

They can be. Or they can be open to the public. During the Age of Sail the British mail packets were government funded and carried civilian mail too.

...and can get data to/from the marches & core faster by a month, maybe two... but that extra speed isn't terribly useful, costs a HUGE amount, and is not providing a significant strategic advantage.

It may cost a huge amount in absolute numbers, but it would be much, much cheaper that the canonical X-boat network. As for not being useful, how can you claim that? Political messages, financial information, news... all of this has historically been worth spending money on getting fast. This very iteration of the X-boat discussion grew out of your own claim that communication delay would hamper financial transaction across interstellar distances.

It does, however, have a huge Canon über-purpose (allowing Norris to declare himself Archduke knowing the emperor is already dead),

It might serve such a purpose if the story worked. But it doesn't. Even if everything did work as described (which is a huge belief-breaker that might or might not be worth swallowing if it made the story work), people can still count and everybody still knows that "they" do have jump-6. The second any of Norris' fellow peers hear about Strephon's death (and how come THEY didn't get it by jump-6 too?) they can count backwards and note that, gee, Norris' elevation must have been one of the last things Strephon ever did; what an amazing coincidence. The moment anyone else hears about it they can do the same calculations. With or without advanced notice, Norris needs the tacit or explicit backing of most of the nobles and most of the (high-population) world governments to pull it off. In fact, if Norris' elevation HAD been genuine, the timing would give Delphine a perfect opportunity to cast doubt upon it, if she had had the backing to buck Norris.

...but it makes little sense for such a net to be present when an optimized J4 net could do almost as well.

That may be true, although I'm not so sure about that. But the canonical X-boat network is very far from being optimized. If you want to argue believability, you can't compare a J6 network against an optimized J4 network. You have to compare it to the canonical X-boat network.

The military can run it only because the system provides training for the strategic command-control couriers.

And because the Emperor is going to want his orders and the return reports to get back and forth as fast as possible. If the X-boats can't do that, something else has to take up the slack.

That said, the CCC net is likely to lose actual advancing warships anyway...

Eh?

And, just as a historical note, remember, the last couple battles of the war of 1812 were fought a year after the armisist... news hadn't reached the local troops on either side yet... Men were decorated for fighting in a battle of a war that was already over before the battle began. The Imperium will have similar issues.

I don't see the relevance.

And the canonical J6 run is done by a megacorp as a factor for the Imperial Gov't.

I assume you're referring to the Imperiallines setup. That's not a megacorporation. And I object to the use of the singular. One of the two canonical J6 networks is a clandestine one working for the Imperial Household. That doesn't make it THE J6 network. There's no evidence that the magacorporations have their own jump-6 couriers, but it's a logical assumption that they do. Just as it is logical that some world governments would have their own couriers to keep them in touch with their envoys on Capital.

One last point. You make a big deal out of the argument that a J6 network wouldn't be able to pay for itself. I submit that if it could be demonstrated that such a network could make a profit, its non-existence becomes belief-breaking in itself. But even if it isn't profitable, there's still the opportunity cost of not having it (financial), not to mention the political cost, to consider.


Hans

 

[Peter Schutze]

>But the canonical X-boat network is very far from being optimized

sadly very true. In many cases its far from being sensible or even logical

a quick look at any of the sector maps will show cases where the Xboat link forms a long c or u shape between major worlds or capitals despite the worlds the routes touch being within 4 hexes of eachother at several points .... surely they use these "shortcuts" ?

>known creditworthiness of the issuer and/or the bearer

or an absolute garuantee by various levels of government against fraud losses.

Since the imperial government actively promotes interstellar trade, any financial institution should have absolute confidence that interstellar transactions will be honoured.