Canon Problems with Traveller5 Core Rules?

[Magnus von Thornwood]

On FirmPoints.

Damn, when I argued for FirmPoints I didn't think I would spend so much time defending and explaining them. Grrr.

Okay, way back when ACS was in various states of rewrites I thought that FirmPoints were a needed addition. For me and hopefully other naval architects the FirmPoint is designed to fill the roles seen on actual naval warships of secondary weapons, like CIWS, 2-5" guns and the Ma Deuces slathered all over them. Also that nifty concealed blaster that Han used in escaping Hoth.

So yes, MajorB you are correct, they are designed to be less than a HardPoint. They are designed to have anti-vehicle and anti-boarding or even support weapons on an ACS giving it a more realistic mix of weapons.

Now as to the canon conflict, not so sure, remember you give up a HardPoint to get FirmPoints so you can still (if I remember this correctly, but my computer is down and no access to current PDF at moment) install a regular HardPoint in your smallcraft...I think, damn it has been to long since I built a Vehicle. And if not then it may be that Vehicles can't have HPs in which case the conflict is with VehicleMaker, not ACS.

As to the Bays, yeah technically by the RAW T5.09 yes, you can jam in as many Bays of whatever size as you want so you can have more than 1 Bay in a 1000-ton ship. Which is awesome! Said the guy who hated HG and never owned FF&S.

 

[Major B]

Damn, when I argued for FirmPoints I didn't think I would spend so much time defending and explaining them. Grrr.

No need to defend them Magnus - I am a big fan of firmpoints. I just wanted to help Robject collect canon discrepancies and fighters unable to mount missile launchers is one.

Okay, way back when ACS was in various states of rewrites I thought that FirmPoints were a needed addition. For me and hopefully other naval architects the FirmPoint is designed to fill the roles seen on actual naval warships of secondary weapons, like CIWS, 2-5" guns and the Ma Deuces slathered all over them.

I say yes and yes. I'm with you all the way.

Now as to the canon conflict, not so sure, remember you give up a HardPoint to get FirmPoints so you can still (if I remember this correctly, but my computer is down and no access to current PDF at moment) install a regular HardPoint in your smallcraft...I think, damn it has been to long since I built a Vehicle. And if not then it may be that Vehicles can't have HPs in which case the conflict is with VehicleMaker, not ACS..

Nope. Hardpoints are prohibited on craft by T5.09. I'll quote the pertinent section and highlight the important parts:

Hardpoints and Firmpoints

Hardpoints and Firmpoints are locations for the installation of weapons and defenses on hulls.​

Hardpoints.​

A Hardpoint is a location on the hull which allows the installation of a weapon system (or, in some cases, other devices). It includes appropriate power and control connections, and is strengthened to withstand acceleration and environmental stresses.​

Every Hull automatically has one Hardpoint per 100 tons. It imposes no tonnage burden on the Hull. It is not possible to install a Hardpoint on a Pod; the minimum tonnage to support a Hardpoint is 100 tons.​

Firmpoints. ​

A Firmpoint is a small Hardpoint with restricted capabilities primarily for pods and small craft (although they may be installed ion Hulls).​

Any Pod or small craft Hull (less than 100 tons) may have one Firmpoint per 35 tons. The first Firmpoint may be installed on a Pod or Subhull between 10 and 35 tons.​

A Hull may substitute three Firmpoints per Hardpoint.

For example, a 100-ton Hull-A can have one Hardpoint, or three Firmpoints. A 10-ton Pod-A1 can have one Firmpoint. A 30-ton Pod-A3 can have one Firmpoint. A 40-ton Pod-A4 can have two Firmpoints. An 80-ton Pod-A8 can have three Firmpoints.​

For example, a Laser-10 in a 1-ton turret has range R=7. Reducing the mount to R=6 also reduces the tonnage of the turret by half (to half-ton) and makes it eligible for a Firmpoint. The Hull can install three Firmpoint mounted Laser-10s R=6 in place of one Hardpoint mounted Laser-10 R=7.​

A Firmpoint will accept any mount which is less than one ton (mounts less than one ton are usually created by applying World Range changes) and contains a World Range Weapon, Defense, or Sensor.​

So hulls can have firmpoints or hardpoints but pods can only have firmpoints and firmpoints can only mount world-range (R=) weapons.

As to the Bays, yeah technically by the RAW T5.09 yes, you can jam in as many Bays of whatever size as you want so you can have more than 1 Bay in a 1000-ton ship. Which is awesome! Said the guy who hated HG and never owned FF&S.

Again, I am a fan - just pointing out that it means we might want to look at canon designs from earlier versions and see if the restriction on bays was important enough that the design should be redone.

And if anyone wants it redone, let me know.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Umm. Unless "Time can be rewritten", the eras of history blow away GURPS events post 1116.

 

[mike wightman]

GURPS Traveller has always been an alternate universe; the OTU goes: golden era - rebellion - hard times - TNE - 1248 - Galaxiad.

The GT ATU diverges sometime during the golden age so that the rebellion and later events do not happen.

 

[robject]

GURPS Traveller has always been an alternate universe; the OTU goes: golden era - rebellion - hard times - TNE - 1248 - Galaxiad.

The GT ATU diverges sometime during the golden age so that the rebellion and later events do not happen.

To be a smartass about it: the LTU didn't even skip Virus, because the timeline hasn't been developed past 1125 or so (I could be mistaken), with some ideas on the table through 1140 or so, and some broad sketches beyond there. Of course, the energy behind LTU is to have a timeline that bypasses both Rebellion and Virus.

-2348 GT:Interstellar Wars
        |
       ...
        |
    0 T4:Milieu Zero
        |
       ...
        |
 1105 Classic Traveller
 1115 GT:Sword Worlds
         |          \
 1116 MT/Rebellion   LTU
         |           |
 1125 MT/Hard Times  LTU
         |           
 1201 TNE            
         |           
 1248 TNE/1248      
         |         
        ...
         |
 1900 T5/Galaxiad

 

[mike wightman]

Does the Empress wave get retconned into the Lorenverse like it has been into the MgT golden age 3I?

The hints about it in Marc's novel have me wondering:
did Marc know about it before he left GDW?
is it possible to change what it is from the 1248 version, since it has been changed for the MgT version?

 

[Whipsnade]

To be a smartass about it...

To just be a regular old ass...

... we can't peg the LTU's point of divergence with any accuracy beyond saying it happened "somewhen" in the CT/Classic Era.

I'd love to learn what the POD was, but I fear we never will.

 

[robject]

To just be a regular old ass...

... we can't peg the LTU's point of divergence with any accuracy beyond saying it happened "somewhen" in the CT/Classic Era.

I'd love to learn what the POD was, but I fear we never will.

Think about it this way: we don't need to know. Why? Because: if it were important or significant we'd put it in the timeline.

In other words, the POD for almost any purpose is effectively, the two Events Of Departure: the Assassination on one side, and the Destruction of Dulinor's vessel on the other.

 

[aramis]

Think about it this way: we don't need to know. Why? Because: if it were important or significant we'd put it in the timeline.

In other words, the POD for almost any purpose is effectively, the two Events Of Departure: the Assassination on one side, and the Destruction of Dulinor's vessel on the other.

Logical failure, Rob. MAJOR logical failure.

POD absolutely without a doubt MUST to be before Dulinor launches the plot, otherwise the news would still have been released in Illellish from the pre-recorded messages.

The plan is implied as having taken over a year, so the POD must be before 1115. Especially since we know an entire regiment to have been involved.

 

[Whipsnade]

Think about it this way: we don't need to know. Why? Because: if it were important or significant we'd put it in the timeline.

I want to know for two reasons: (A) I'm insatiably curious and (2) the POD will have triggered other, lesser changes.

Relative to the Rebellion, those smaller changes may be easier to "insert" your player into.

In other words, the POD for almost any purpose is effectively, the two Events Of Departure: the Assassination on one side, and the Destruction of Dulinor's vessel on the other.

Looking at the "Very Big Picture", yes. From a distance, the only change(s) worth noting are either the Assassination or Dulinor's Death. However, those aren't the only changes.

However, as I explained above, the POD doesn't result in Pratchett's Trousers of Time. The two events don't trundle down one pant leg or the other stove-piped off from the rest of the universe. That is, the consequences aren't binary. Instead from the initial change, the consequences spread in a very broad "fan" or "cone".

And those consequences are interesting in and of themselves.

As Wil noted in this thread and as I've explained many times here, the POD has to be somewhat distant in time from the Assassination/Dulinor's Death because of how neatly Dulinor's plot was dismantled.

In the OTU, Dulinor basically suborned an entire sector along with other movers and shakers beyond Ilelish's borders. That's a lot of leg work over a lot of parsecs requiring a lot of time. Dulinor also had to have a pretty good idea that his plot was succeeding before he traveled to Capital and the Throne Room.

In the LTU, Dulinor undertakes the same plot with - what seems to him - the same level of success. Unknown to him, however, someone is also performing a lot of leg work over a lot parsecs requiring a lot of time to secretly dismantle Dulinor's plot. They're doing their dismantling so well that Dulinor isn't aware of their work(1) and that there are almost no loose ends.

All this means that the POD doesn't occur in orbit over Capital at the moment the shuttle explodes and the further back in time the POD occurs the more "side effects" it can create.


1 - In my more Whipsnadian moments, I've toyed with the thought that Dulinor was approached early in his efforts, presented with incontrovertible evidence of his treason, and given a choice. He can assist with cleanly dismantling his own plot and then commit suicide so his daughter can inherit his office and his followers won't be (greatly) punished OR he can be killed right now along with his daughter, family members, and supporters.

It's the same choice Rome's emperors used to give failed usurpers; Kill yourself now, spare the empire the effort of cleaning up your mess, and your family won't be destroyed down to the last mewling babe.

I used to dismiss this idea as too dark and twisted. Then I read Agent of the Imperium...

 

[mike wightman]

The Chinese were even more ruthless when disposing of the families of traitors/usurpers...

I think your idea fits.

 

[aramis]

As Wil noted in this thread and as I've explained many times here, the POD has to be somewhat distant in time from the Assassination/Dulinor's Death because of how neatly Dulinor's plot was dismantled.

In the OTU, Dulinor basically suborned an entire sector along with other movers and shakers beyond Ilelish's borders. That's a lot of leg work over a lot of parsecs requiring a lot of time. Dulinor also had to have a pretty good idea that his plot was succeeding before he traveled to Capital and the Throne Room.

In the LTU, Dulinor undertakes the same plot with - what seems to him - the same level of success. Unknown to him, however, someone is also performing a lot of leg work over a lot parsecs requiring a lot of time to secretly dismantle Dulinor's plot. They're doing their dismantling so well that Dulinor isn't aware of their work(1) and that there are almost no loose ends.

All this means that the POD doesn't occur in orbit over Capital at the moment the shuttle explodes and the further back in time the POD occurs the more "side effects" it can create.

Someone dismantling the plot without Archduke Dulinor noticing is far less likely - verisimilitude detonating level of "far less likely" - than Dulinor of the LTU simply not having initiated it in the first place. Which requires Dulinor to have fundamentally changed well before the plot begins.

Also, it wasn't just within the sector - he'd actvely subborned individuals throughout the Domain of Illelish. Just WAY too many for it not to have been noticed how many domain press agents suddenly disappeared. How many Brigade and Regimental commanders suddenly disappeared. How many forces suddenly returned from service at the capital. Such a move would generate enough paranoia to trigger the Civil War without killing Strephon.

 

[Whipsnade]

I think your idea fits.

The Imperium IMTU was neither light or dark. I've written something similar to this for decades now:

The Imperium is as strong as it has to be, as weak as it can risk to be, as good as it wants to be, and as evil as it must be.

After reading AotI, I finally come to realize that the Imperium is just as dark and Machiavellian as my most Whipsnadian moments made it out to be.

As Wil wisely points out, it's far more likely like Dulinor participated in dismantling his own plot than some counter-plot was able to do the same without his knowing.

Dying aboard that shuttle above Capital was Dulinor's part of a bargain that kept his daughter, wife, extended family, and friends from being bound in piano wire and hung on red hot meat hooks at some secret planetoid prison.

Also, it wasn't just within the sector...

Mea culpa. I was thinking "domain" and wrote "sector".

 

[Hal]

Now, if you want to have some REAL fun?

Dulinor isn't dead.

There's a deep freeze facility that has a John Doe prisoner being kept in a low berth. Those that didn't get swept up in the dismantling came to be the heart of a new conspiracy. Who knows that these people will do the next time?

Just a thought.

 

[aramis]

T

As Wil wisely points out, it's far more likely like Dulinor participated in dismantling his own plot than some counter-plot was able to do the same without his knowing.

No. If Dulinor even starts it, it's too late for him to pull out

The POD has to be before he ever starts it. Because, once it starts, it's too late.

 

[whartung]

Dying aboard that shuttle above Capital was Dulinor's part of a bargain that kept his daughter, wife, extended family, and friends from being bound in piano wire and hung on red hot meat hooks at some secret planetoid prison.

Extra horrible points for this being done in light gravity...

 

[Whipsnade]

No. If Dulinor even starts it, it's too late for him to pull out

The POD has to be before he ever starts it. Because, once it starts, it's too late.

Wil, you misunderstood me thanks to my poorly structured post. Yes, the POD has to be before Dulinor starts his plot.

I was just agreeing with your point that it's far more plausible that, once he was caught, Dulinor helped dismantled his own plot in return for certain "considerations".

Having Dulinor put together a domain-wide plot with tendrils that reach at least to Capital without leaks is barely credible. Having a counter-plot then dismantle the same without any leaks reaching Dulinor has even less credibility.

It's this lack of credibility for even the original plot which has always led me to suspect that Dulinor had the support of a significant fraction of the Moot before he arrived at Capital and that that fraction had been actively plotting with him for some time. It was only when Dulinor totally botched his part in the Assassination that the plot fell apart and all the conspirators ran for cover.

IIRC, we discussed this some time ago. The phrase "Strephon Must Go" rings a bell.

 

[aramis]

Wil, you misunderstood me thanks to my poorly structured post. Yes, the POD has to be before Dulinor starts his plot.

I was just agreeing with your point that it's far more plausible that, once he was caught, Dulinor helped dismantled his own plot in return for certain "considerations".

NO!!! With a capital N! and a capital O! There is NO credibility to him helping dismantle it. I made no point allowing for him to participate in dismantling ... that alone is so implausible AND OUT OF CHARACTER as he is written (See Survival Margin), that any "he suicided" ideals are totally inconsistent with what's been written of his character.

He has to have NEVER STARTED the plot... because anything later than that, and it would leak, when the automated news feeds went off across the domain. Hundreds of worlds in the OTU got the message that Dulinor assassinated the emperor on the day he was scheduled to do it.

Hundreds of automated news releases. Months of travel time. Too many levels of corruption for dismantling to make any sense at all.

 

[Whipsnade]

NO!!! With a capital N! and a capital O! There is NO credibility to him helping dismantle it.

Says you.

I made no point allowing for him to participate in dismantling ...

I misread what you posted.

... that alone is so implausible AND OUT OF CHARACTER as he is written (See Survival Margin), that any "he suicided" ideals are totally inconsistent with what's been written of his character.

Inconsistent? Hell no. What's walking in front a robotic thresher and trying to reason with it if not a suicidal act? He tried to talk down an uncontrolled machine and you think he didn't commit suicide?

Dulinor is a LOSER. He folds whenever the pressure is on. He has feet, legs, hips, a heart, and head of clay. Look at his behavior after her botches the Assassination. He shoots too many people, the Ilelish Guard doesn't lock down the Palace tight enough, one Prince doesn't get killed, and he responds by running back to Dlan. He could have stayed and tried to salvage the situation, but he ran away.

Olav, Arbellatra, or any of the other Barracks Boobs would have gone down swinging, but not Dulinor. He ran away.

He has to have NEVER STARTED the plot... because anything later than that, and it would leak, when the automated news feeds went off across the domain. Hundreds of worlds in the OTU got the message that Dulinor assassinated the emperor on the day he was scheduled to do it.

And in the LTU all those automated messages didn't go off. All that's left is the media buy on Dlan, empty air time with no message to fill it.

Hundreds of automated news releases. Months of travel time. Too many levels of corruption for dismantling to make any sense at all.

Then explain why all those automated messages didn't happen and the Dlan media buy did.

If you're claiming there was no plot in the LTU, then explain why the shuttle exploded.

 

[aramis]

Dulinor is a BELIEVER, a zealot. He genuinely thought he could pull it off.He genuinely thought he would be accepted.

There is no way he'd surrender. Try to be superman, sure.

He'd never surrender. Not even to save his loved ones, because he genuinely believes his own hype, as savior of the Imperium.

A sane man would not have started the civil war.