PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Since at least one other member finds this topic instersting I'll post here.
Sgt. Biggles?
Watch this space.
Sgt. Biggles?
Watch this space.
Canada During and After the Twilight War.
- Thread starter PapaGolfWhiskey
- Start date
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
SOC-12
There was a lovely article in Challenge (somewhere between issues 60-70) called "Red Maple", that discussed Twilight Canada generally and had the player squad off on Vancouver Island. Another adventure, whose name I forget, had them mucking about on the BC/WA state border trying to track down escaped zoo elephants... 
And for future developments the 2300AD book did a great job of realistically portraying Canada's recovery into the glorious, Kafer-filled future.
And for future developments the 2300AD book did a great job of realistically portraying Canada's recovery into the glorious, Kafer-filled future.Sgt Biggles
SOC-11
Yep, this will work. Give me a week though. Besides the good daughter I have a bad son who has picked this time to act the fool, again. bother.
Ganidiirsi O'Flynn:
I will look up the articles. I recal Maple Leaf somewhat, was there a module as well? Challenge had some good material.
Ganidiirsi O'Flynn:
I will look up the articles. I recal Maple Leaf somewhat, was there a module as well? Challenge had some good material.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Okay. I don't think I even own the boxed set anymore. Though I WILL buy the T20 source book when it comes out.
I'm going to start with some basics Sarge so that when you get back you'll have a framework within which to pose more specific questions. After the France comment I hope you'll pardon me if I keep it very basic and not be insulted.
Disclaimer. The only 'sourcebook' I hold in my hands is a 25-30 year old grade school Atlas. I have less than perfect memories of the results of the most recent census. Ditto for some facts and figures quoted in the news. Pardon me if some of my numbers are vague. These first posts are a loose preliminary sketch.
(more to follow)
I'm going to start with some basics Sarge so that when you get back you'll have a framework within which to pose more specific questions. After the France comment I hope you'll pardon me if I keep it very basic and not be insulted.
Disclaimer. The only 'sourcebook' I hold in my hands is a 25-30 year old grade school Atlas. I have less than perfect memories of the results of the most recent census. Ditto for some facts and figures quoted in the news. Pardon me if some of my numbers are vague. These first posts are a loose preliminary sketch.
(more to follow)
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Canadian Geography: An overview.
Canada occupies the northern (call it half) of North America 'from sea to sea'. Prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union it was second in Area only to Soviet Russia, and while slightly larger in area than all of mainland USA has a population less than one tenth that of the US.
On Canadian printed maps, Canada is shown as claiming the entire Artic Region in a wedge delimited by the furthest reaches of each coast and the north pole. Other nations generally only recognise the usual coastal, limits (political and environmental) extending from the last known edge of landmass and treat the Ice Pack in between as 'International Waters'.
Looking at the broadest geographic definitions, Canada has two coasts, Two (or three) Mountain Ranges, a Broad plaines region. Extensive Tundra, and the Canadian (PreCambrian) Shield.
(more to follow)
Canada occupies the northern (call it half) of North America 'from sea to sea'. Prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union it was second in Area only to Soviet Russia, and while slightly larger in area than all of mainland USA has a population less than one tenth that of the US.
On Canadian printed maps, Canada is shown as claiming the entire Artic Region in a wedge delimited by the furthest reaches of each coast and the north pole. Other nations generally only recognise the usual coastal, limits (political and environmental) extending from the last known edge of landmass and treat the Ice Pack in between as 'International Waters'.
Looking at the broadest geographic definitions, Canada has two coasts, Two (or three) Mountain Ranges, a Broad plaines region. Extensive Tundra, and the Canadian (PreCambrian) Shield.
(more to follow)
I would think Canada would be mostly unaffected directly. With 1/10th the US population there is not as many targets. Also does Canada have nuclear weapons? If it doesn't the Soviets would have less reason to nuke that country, they would probably figure on getting the United States out of the way first, and then they could invade Canada with conventional forces, since the Canadians would not have conventional forces to match theirs. I don't know whether the Twilight 2000 scenario called for the Soviet Union to invade Canada, if not, then Canada would be affected mostly through the disruption of trade with its neighbor to the south. Things that it would import from the United States would no longer be available, its government would probably survive intact, but it would be in desparate straights. Machinery would break down and the factories in the US which made the spare parts would no longer exist. Certain factories which made spare parts in Canada would have no place to export them to and would shut down. To a certain extent the Canadian economy would become more agrarian and as the tractors broke down, would rely more on beasts of burden. More people would have to become farmers, trappers, and hunters to feed themselves. Canada would become a wilder place.
I think elements of the US Army would also be in Canada as would the Russians. Much of the fighting might take place in the arctic regions of Alaska and Canada. Initially their would be tanks and planes. M1 tanks are real gas guzzelers though consuming 2 gallons of gas for every mile they traverse. Canada has oil fields and refineries as does Alaska. Supply might be a bit of a problem though, the Russians will be further stretched if they invade into Canada. Most of the Canadians living within 100 miles of the US border might not see much of this. Some right-wing militia groups might invade into Canada though, the Royal Mounted Police might have to get on horseback again to deal with this problem. the border between US and Canada might be more difficult to patrol with supplies going to the war effort and the border guards themselves being conscripted into the army and sent to the front. Those that remain might have to forage for something to eat.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Haven't got that far yet Tom. Patience.
Yes and No. Canada has traditionally been an exportor of raw materials and an importer of finished product but it DOES have it's own industrial base and Technological savvy. If left utterly unmolested it would have pottential to grow more self sufficient and stronger. Since the Soviets had a large enough Nucleor Arsenal to target every NA city (On Paper at least) with a population of over 60, 000 I'm sure it could spare one for Toronto. Which... as you will see, would be DEVASTATING for Canada.
Now. On with were I left off.
Yes and No. Canada has traditionally been an exportor of raw materials and an importer of finished product but it DOES have it's own industrial base and Technological savvy. If left utterly unmolested it would have pottential to grow more self sufficient and stronger. Since the Soviets had a large enough Nucleor Arsenal to target every NA city (On Paper at least) with a population of over 60, 000 I'm sure it could spare one for Toronto. Which... as you will see, would be DEVASTATING for Canada.
Now. On with were I left off.
I'd give it little credence myself. Canada might not like being in the USA's shadow, but they'd like being in the USSR's even less.
I'm not a fan of Pat Buchanan, I believe in a strong America and he does not anymore. I believe Canada should pull its own weight in proportion to the size of its economy and its population, I expect nothing more. Canada was in between most of the USA and the USSR, that makes it a frontline state much the same way West Germany was in Europe, it would have been frankly foolish to wait for the Soviets to come to the US/Canada border before we start fighting them. Canada may receive a benefit from this in that the US sees an invasion of Canada as a direct threat to the US and will apply greater resources available to it than is available to Canada. The fight would most likely begin in Alaska though and if things go badly for US forces, they may get pushed into Canada.
Canada's and the USA's military would probably be a bit more robust in this alternate history at the start date of WWIII, than at that same date in our own history. One thing that would be interesting would be starting the T2000 campaign at the very beginning of World War III before any nukes started flying, before the general mobilization. PCs could start as either civilians or soldiers. If I recall properly WWIII went on for 2 years before going nuclear, that is enough time for the PCs to receive their draft notices, go to boot camp, be issued their equipment and be sent to their units. This would allow some time for some conventional war fighting before things really go to hell with the nukes, it would also give some background on how this world is different from our own.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
The Geologic Regions are as follows:
Appalachia - The bedrock of the Applachian mountain range, if not arguably some of the hills themselves, Sweeps right through the 'Maritime' Provinces of Canada's East Coast: New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and the Island of Newfoundland (Aka 'The Rock').
The Canadian/PreCamberian shield This is a Huge swatch of absolutely ancient (The PreCambrian period is the Oldest Geological timezone) Granite or Granitized bedrock. It covers a broad swath of Canada; Just about all of Quebec from just north of the St. Lawrence lowlands to beneath to Ice pack on the north coast. It covers all of Ontario except for the 'Golden Horseshoe' (The Niagra Escarpment, Toronto region and the coast of Lakes Ontario and Erie) and a little bit of lowlands on the southwest coasts of Hudson and James bays. It completely occupies the Ontario Manitoba border and sweeps Nortwest, occupying the nothern third of Saskatchewan, a tiny corner of Alberta and pretty close to all of what was once known as the 'Northewest Territories' (now mostly known as Nunavit).
This Hard uneven bedrock with it's thin topsoil is unsuited for farming (though some dairy farms and small produce farms exist). And while not really mountainous, it is too rugged, full of unexpected ravines and hillocks (all covered with dense boreal forest) to be really suitable for any military ground force other than Leg Infantry.
The Interior Plains are the northern continuation of the american 'Great Plains' This is Canada's 'Midwest', and what makes Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta the 'Praire Provinces' The two big industries in these regions are the Agribusiness and Oil. Alberta is especially Rich in oil and Natural Gas and the Alberta 'Tar Sands' represent one of the biggest oil fields in the world.
The Western Cordillera, also extends up through Canada. The southern dogleg of the Alberta/British Columbia border runs right through the heart of that section of the rocky mountains, But as the mountain range proceeds North and West it become entirely within the Province of BC. BC is Sandwiched Neatly between Alaska and Washinton State. And is basically a land of Mountains and seacoast. Forestry and Fishing are the principal industries here but far from the only ones.
(More to follow)
Appalachia - The bedrock of the Applachian mountain range, if not arguably some of the hills themselves, Sweeps right through the 'Maritime' Provinces of Canada's East Coast: New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and the Island of Newfoundland (Aka 'The Rock').
The Canadian/PreCamberian shield This is a Huge swatch of absolutely ancient (The PreCambrian period is the Oldest Geological timezone) Granite or Granitized bedrock. It covers a broad swath of Canada; Just about all of Quebec from just north of the St. Lawrence lowlands to beneath to Ice pack on the north coast. It covers all of Ontario except for the 'Golden Horseshoe' (The Niagra Escarpment, Toronto region and the coast of Lakes Ontario and Erie) and a little bit of lowlands on the southwest coasts of Hudson and James bays. It completely occupies the Ontario Manitoba border and sweeps Nortwest, occupying the nothern third of Saskatchewan, a tiny corner of Alberta and pretty close to all of what was once known as the 'Northewest Territories' (now mostly known as Nunavit).
This Hard uneven bedrock with it's thin topsoil is unsuited for farming (though some dairy farms and small produce farms exist). And while not really mountainous, it is too rugged, full of unexpected ravines and hillocks (all covered with dense boreal forest) to be really suitable for any military ground force other than Leg Infantry.
The Interior Plains are the northern continuation of the american 'Great Plains' This is Canada's 'Midwest', and what makes Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta the 'Praire Provinces' The two big industries in these regions are the Agribusiness and Oil. Alberta is especially Rich in oil and Natural Gas and the Alberta 'Tar Sands' represent one of the biggest oil fields in the world.
The Western Cordillera, also extends up through Canada. The southern dogleg of the Alberta/British Columbia border runs right through the heart of that section of the rocky mountains, But as the mountain range proceeds North and West it become entirely within the Province of BC. BC is Sandwiched Neatly between Alaska and Washinton State. And is basically a land of Mountains and seacoast. Forestry and Fishing are the principal industries here but far from the only ones.
(More to follow)
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
okay... enough of that. If you can get your hands on a cheap atlas (I've been using the Canadian Oxford School Atlas 4th ed. -- Which I had to buy about 22 years ago as part of my schooling) You can SEE what I was just talking about a lot better than I described.
I'm going try to -BREIFLY- discuss a bit of Canadian population demographics and then get on to the real meat the stuff you CAN'T learn without having lived in Canada or extensivily researched it. Some of the latter will included personal opinions and conculsions and I invite my fellow Canadians on these boards to correct me if they think I've misrepresented anything.
A very quick note on Demographics.
The vast majority of Canada's populace is clustered along coasts, great lakes shorelines, and major river courses. Most of the 'settlement of canada is along a thin band sweeping along it's southern perimeters. The Toronto area alone, depending on how you define it, contains easily 1/5th to a 1/3rd of Canada's population all within a 2 hour drive (or one WWMD radius) of Canada's most populous city, It's corporate and banking capital, One of it's two Nucleor Power plants, A significant bulk of it's manufacturing and resource processing industries. Expanding the Radius to places within a mere afternoon's travel and you get BOTH of Canada's Nuke Plants, The world's first commercial oil field and one of Canada's largest chemical manufacturers. (Sarnia) A major Steeltown and Automotive plant(s) (Hamilton) and an even larger percentage of the population. For a Bonus, if you place your template just right on the map you can include the Nation's capitol to boot.
At the risk of feeding the 'Planet Toronto' attitude that the rest of the Country loves to hate; the is why, when Toronto catches SARS, the whole country starts coughing and wheezing.
I'm going try to -BREIFLY- discuss a bit of Canadian population demographics and then get on to the real meat the stuff you CAN'T learn without having lived in Canada or extensivily researched it. Some of the latter will included personal opinions and conculsions and I invite my fellow Canadians on these boards to correct me if they think I've misrepresented anything.
A very quick note on Demographics.
The vast majority of Canada's populace is clustered along coasts, great lakes shorelines, and major river courses. Most of the 'settlement of canada is along a thin band sweeping along it's southern perimeters. The Toronto area alone, depending on how you define it, contains easily 1/5th to a 1/3rd of Canada's population all within a 2 hour drive (or one WWMD radius) of Canada's most populous city, It's corporate and banking capital, One of it's two Nucleor Power plants, A significant bulk of it's manufacturing and resource processing industries. Expanding the Radius to places within a mere afternoon's travel and you get BOTH of Canada's Nuke Plants, The world's first commercial oil field and one of Canada's largest chemical manufacturers. (Sarnia) A major Steeltown and Automotive plant(s) (Hamilton) and an even larger percentage of the population. For a Bonus, if you place your template just right on the map you can include the Nation's capitol to boot.
At the risk of feeding the 'Planet Toronto' attitude that the rest of the Country loves to hate; the is why, when Toronto catches SARS, the whole country starts coughing and wheezing.
I'd like to correct a few misconceptions you may have about our (Canada's) nuclear power generation system...
Reactors: canada has a few more than two...
Power Generating units (
New Brunswick, Point Lepreau. In service 1982 (700MW)
Québec, Gentilly. In service 1983 (1x 675 MW)
Ontaio, Darlington (4x 675 MW units), In service 1983
Ontario, Pickering (8 units)Eat of Toronto on the shores of lake Ontario:
- In 1973, the Pickering A Nuclear Generating Station, with four CANDU reactors, produced more electricity than any nuclear power station in the world at that time.
-By 1986 an additional 4x 642 MW reactors began commercial operation at Ontario Hydro's Pickering B Station.
Ontario, Bruce (8 units) on the shores of Lake Huron:
- 4x 825 MW reactor units began commercial operation in 1978
- Between 1984 and 1987, four additional 915 MW reactors in service at Bruce B.
There are also two research reactors, which add surplus power to the grid as well....
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Centripetal Forces: The things that would keep Canadians together.
Disclaimer: This is the opinion/conclusions of a College Certificate/Universtity (multiple) drop out Canadian citizen. I'm willing to entertain any intelligent arguments as to why my conclusions are wrong and intend no offense to any of my fellow canadians. This is just my _Generalized_,and _Simplified_ overview of the Canadian Psyche.
1) 'Small C conservative' - Canadians are far from immune to change but prefer reform to revolution and evolution over all. They will, generally, adhere to tradition and listen to Traditional Voices of authority unless and until those voices are thoroughly dicredited.
Certain symbols (Like the RCMP) will have cachet out of proportion to their real capabilities regardless of how great those abilities are.
The 'third party' in Canada's (generally) two to four party electoral system rarely makes changes by forming the Government. Instead the Major parties evolve by adopting the more popular 'third party' policy planks.
2) Non-Confrontational? - Prefer Discourse?
The popular Canadian myth is that a Canadian who has had his foot stepped on will apologise to the stepper. Canadians, Unless playing hockey, are generally non-violent and prefer rational discussion as a resolution to a problem. The first Reaction of MOST Canadians to disaster will NOT to take up arms and start walling in their homesteads. This is partly because of...
3) A sense of Community
Not Communism, COMMUNITY. This is the reason Canada appears much more left wing than the US. Even among those Canadians who think that Canada's Gun Laws are too Strict, that Canada should have a balanced budget, and that Canada's Military has been neglected for too long. THERE is also support for maintaining our public health and education systems. Even Right wing parties have socialist planks in their platforms. but it goes beyond politics...
The first instinct of Canadians when disaster strikes (Demonstrated in the Red River Flood of the mid-'90's The Ice Storms of the Late 90's and immediately post 9/11) is to pitch in and help out. Anyway they can. Whether one donates blood or opens one's home to a stranded stranger. Canadians on a grass roots level will jump into their cars and drive hundreds of miles to fill sandbags, shift shattered concrete... even shovel snow. The canadian military is often called in as well to perfrom these tasks.
The Twilight war might, if handled correctly, even bring Canadians closer together.
4) Resentment of America. -- Canadians have an odd split personality regarding america. Most Canadians will speak positively about the Individual americans that they know well. Canada considers America a close friend. ... And yet...
A clear part of the often nebulous, self concious, and crisis stricken Canadian Idenity is all the ways in which we are NOT Americans. We apologise for getting our feet stepped on, in part, because it's better than being 'ugly'. We denigrate some of our right wingers as 'wannabe' Americans. We get VERY insulted when mistaken for our loud and boistrous friends to the south.
Any external threat would have a unifying effect on Canadians, but if it was percieved as an AMERICAN revival of the 'Manifest Destiny' or similar BS it would Galvanise many Canadians into working together.
I'm sure there's more but those, IMO, are the Biggies.
Next: Centrifugal Forces.
Disclaimer: This is the opinion/conclusions of a College Certificate/Universtity (multiple) drop out Canadian citizen. I'm willing to entertain any intelligent arguments as to why my conclusions are wrong and intend no offense to any of my fellow canadians. This is just my _Generalized_,and _Simplified_ overview of the Canadian Psyche.
1) 'Small C conservative' - Canadians are far from immune to change but prefer reform to revolution and evolution over all. They will, generally, adhere to tradition and listen to Traditional Voices of authority unless and until those voices are thoroughly dicredited.
Certain symbols (Like the RCMP) will have cachet out of proportion to their real capabilities regardless of how great those abilities are.
The 'third party' in Canada's (generally) two to four party electoral system rarely makes changes by forming the Government. Instead the Major parties evolve by adopting the more popular 'third party' policy planks.
2) Non-Confrontational? - Prefer Discourse?
The popular Canadian myth is that a Canadian who has had his foot stepped on will apologise to the stepper. Canadians, Unless playing hockey, are generally non-violent and prefer rational discussion as a resolution to a problem. The first Reaction of MOST Canadians to disaster will NOT to take up arms and start walling in their homesteads. This is partly because of...
3) A sense of Community
Not Communism, COMMUNITY. This is the reason Canada appears much more left wing than the US. Even among those Canadians who think that Canada's Gun Laws are too Strict, that Canada should have a balanced budget, and that Canada's Military has been neglected for too long. THERE is also support for maintaining our public health and education systems. Even Right wing parties have socialist planks in their platforms. but it goes beyond politics...
The first instinct of Canadians when disaster strikes (Demonstrated in the Red River Flood of the mid-'90's The Ice Storms of the Late 90's and immediately post 9/11) is to pitch in and help out. Anyway they can. Whether one donates blood or opens one's home to a stranded stranger. Canadians on a grass roots level will jump into their cars and drive hundreds of miles to fill sandbags, shift shattered concrete... even shovel snow. The canadian military is often called in as well to perfrom these tasks.
The Twilight war might, if handled correctly, even bring Canadians closer together.
4) Resentment of America. -- Canadians have an odd split personality regarding america. Most Canadians will speak positively about the Individual americans that they know well. Canada considers America a close friend. ... And yet...
A clear part of the often nebulous, self concious, and crisis stricken Canadian Idenity is all the ways in which we are NOT Americans. We apologise for getting our feet stepped on, in part, because it's better than being 'ugly'. We denigrate some of our right wingers as 'wannabe' Americans. We get VERY insulted when mistaken for our loud and boistrous friends to the south.
Any external threat would have a unifying effect on Canadians, but if it was percieved as an AMERICAN revival of the 'Manifest Destiny' or similar BS it would Galvanise many Canadians into working together.
I'm sure there's more but those, IMO, are the Biggies.
Next: Centrifugal Forces.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Whoops That's what I get for using an Atlas published on 70's data for a grade school market.
It only showed Bruce and Pickering. And by Plant I meant the Facility as a whole not a single reactor.
My Bad, and Thanks.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
BTW would Darlington fall within my 'half day's travel from Toronto' Zone?
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Centrifugal Forces: Phenomenon that Keep Canadians apart.
1) A Vast and unsettled land:
Even along the bands of heavy 'settlement' there are areas where canadians are more dispersed than others. With the Area and Population I mentioned in earlier posts Canadians are spread mighty thin on the ground and have a lot of trees and hills between each other; blocking contact, and understanding. Perhaps that's one reason Canada is a leader in information and communications technologies.
I grew on a stretch of the Trans Canada Highway that has no alternate routes and is only two lanes accross. A jacknifed Semi-Tractor Trailor can and has (temporarily) cut this country in half. Speaking in terms of road travel.
I thought nothing of an hour's drive into the 'big city' (pop 100, 000 or less) in order to see a movie. In later years I even commuted from my small town to a job in that same city, adding two extra hours of driving past nothing but forest and the occasional solitary household to each workday.
That 1 hour car trip becomes a day+ by horse or foot.
There are the two railways (Canadian Pacific, and Canadian National) but they too would be vulnerable to a break down in technology or manufacturing capability.
2) Provincial - Federal conflicts.
NO Canadian province thinks it gets a fair shake from the federal government. If that same Government ran out of funding to deny, or any other form of coercive power. The temptation to chart one's own destiny would be strong.
3) Eastern Domination of the Political Scene.
This could be considered part of (2) above or the "Regional Jealousies" Which I will discuss later but... it's almost a special case.
Due to population demographics and a reprsentative Democracy that defines ridings by population stats, Whatever party the region around toronto votes for, is likely to be the party that forms the goverment.
With even more of Canada's people clustered around the Major cities further east along the St. Lawrence ... Whatever Montreal and Toronto can agree on, The rest of Canada is stuck with.
This creates a sense of disenfranchisement among Canadians who live outside the Toronto-Montreal corridor. They feel (not _entirely_ unjustly) that they provide the Lion's Share of Canada's wealth but are allowed NO say in how that wealth is to be spent. This is a Major factor in Western Separatism, but even provoks 'separatist' feelings among those who live in the more dispersed regions of Toronto's home province.
3) Regional Jealousies.
This is a complex subject. I intend to discuss it in greater depth as I delineate the various regions of Canada and my best guess as to what happens to them after the Twilight War.
4) Quebec Separatism.
No Province is happy with the Federal Government. No Region feels the others are giving it a fair shake but among a significant percentage of the Quebec population it extends further and deeper.
for a quick glance at one of the factors. (unfortunately less than clear in this context) Check out my post in the Topic "Is Solomani Bad"
the 'Ethnic Nationalism' I allude to there is complex series of issues dating back to the very bedrock formation of this nation. The whole 'Quebec question' has required reams of goverment studies and political speaches to delineate. I doubt i could do it justice in a single post. And mentioning it all risks the start of some flames.
(more to follow)
1) A Vast and unsettled land:
Even along the bands of heavy 'settlement' there are areas where canadians are more dispersed than others. With the Area and Population I mentioned in earlier posts Canadians are spread mighty thin on the ground and have a lot of trees and hills between each other; blocking contact, and understanding. Perhaps that's one reason Canada is a leader in information and communications technologies.
I grew on a stretch of the Trans Canada Highway that has no alternate routes and is only two lanes accross. A jacknifed Semi-Tractor Trailor can and has (temporarily) cut this country in half. Speaking in terms of road travel.
I thought nothing of an hour's drive into the 'big city' (pop 100, 000 or less) in order to see a movie. In later years I even commuted from my small town to a job in that same city, adding two extra hours of driving past nothing but forest and the occasional solitary household to each workday.
That 1 hour car trip becomes a day+ by horse or foot.
There are the two railways (Canadian Pacific, and Canadian National) but they too would be vulnerable to a break down in technology or manufacturing capability.
2) Provincial - Federal conflicts.
NO Canadian province thinks it gets a fair shake from the federal government. If that same Government ran out of funding to deny, or any other form of coercive power. The temptation to chart one's own destiny would be strong.
3) Eastern Domination of the Political Scene.
This could be considered part of (2) above or the "Regional Jealousies" Which I will discuss later but... it's almost a special case.
Due to population demographics and a reprsentative Democracy that defines ridings by population stats, Whatever party the region around toronto votes for, is likely to be the party that forms the goverment.
With even more of Canada's people clustered around the Major cities further east along the St. Lawrence ... Whatever Montreal and Toronto can agree on, The rest of Canada is stuck with.
This creates a sense of disenfranchisement among Canadians who live outside the Toronto-Montreal corridor. They feel (not _entirely_ unjustly) that they provide the Lion's Share of Canada's wealth but are allowed NO say in how that wealth is to be spent. This is a Major factor in Western Separatism, but even provoks 'separatist' feelings among those who live in the more dispersed regions of Toronto's home province.
3) Regional Jealousies.
This is a complex subject. I intend to discuss it in greater depth as I delineate the various regions of Canada and my best guess as to what happens to them after the Twilight War.
4) Quebec Separatism.
No Province is happy with the Federal Government. No Region feels the others are giving it a fair shake but among a significant percentage of the Quebec population it extends further and deeper.
for a quick glance at one of the factors. (unfortunately less than clear in this context) Check out my post in the Topic "Is Solomani Bad"
the 'Ethnic Nationalism' I allude to there is complex series of issues dating back to the very bedrock formation of this nation. The whole 'Quebec question' has required reams of goverment studies and political speaches to delineate. I doubt i could do it justice in a single post. And mentioning it all risks the start of some flames.
(more to follow)
I wonder though whether the Soviets would have nuked Toronto. Part of the idea of starting a war would be to conquer something. Something of value has to be left over to take otherwise the effort is a waisted exercise. The first priority would be to destroy those centers that the Soviets would perceive as a threat. If the Soviets thought that a certain target could be taken easily with conventional forces, they might choose not to destroy it. Things liked fixed missile silos would be the first to be destroyed. Perhaps troop concentrations that were disadvantageous to the Soviets would also be targeted. I think in a conventional weapons confrontation, the Soviet weapons would fare poorly against their NATO counter parts. We've seen this in the two Persian Gulf Wars, and in the Balkans. Very few Migs would survive for long over US/Canada territory. The Soviets, if they started the war would nevertheless have thought they could win. Perhaps they thought the US President was "chicken" and would back down in the face of a Soviet threat. Also if we talk about Canada we should also talk about Alaska since to get into Canada, the Soviets would have to go through Alaska. the whole Canada/Alaska area should be treated as one region. the Soviets aren't going to give a damn about where the border is unless Canada was leaning toward neutrality, in which case they might seek to negotiate a passage through to the lower 48 states. Needless to say, the US would take a dim view of such a pact, might not care about the US/Canada border and seek to stop the Soviet advance before it reached the lower 48 states.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
I can't see a Soviet/Canada non-aggression pact in a 'traditional' scenario evolving out of the cold war.
During the Cold war Canada (Pat Buchanon's assinine remarks about 'Freeloading Canuckistan' not withstanding) was firmly, if a little miserly on side with the US.
As for Soviet invasion. yeah the Oil Fields in Alaska would be a prime target. Your Getting ahead of me though I haven't even started on Canada's military.
During the Cold war Canada (Pat Buchanon's assinine remarks about 'Freeloading Canuckistan' not withstanding) was firmly, if a little miserly on side with the US.
As for Soviet invasion. yeah the Oil Fields in Alaska would be a prime target. Your Getting ahead of me though I haven't even started on Canada's military.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Canada By Region: The Maritimes.
New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and the Province of Newfoundland & Labrador Make up what are known as the Maritime Provinces.
With the incredibly long Bridge (20 to 30 Km guessing from a pre-bridge map) to PEI completed a few years ago the first three provinces are linked physically and culturally. OF the three only New Brunswick has Land Borders with a non-Maritime entity (Province of Quebec and State of Maine). Nova Scotia is at the end of the same Peninsula as New Brunswick and PEI is an island just north of both.
Newfoundland is an island about 1/2 the size of Texas. Labrador is a Chunk of the mainland bordering on Northern Quebec and across the icy waters from Greenland, about the size of the other half.
With the exception of PEI (the Potatoe and Golf capital of Canada) These four provinces have always traditionally depended on the Sea for their wealth and employment. While there's been Offshore Drilling and ambitious plans to harness the incredible tides of the Bay of Fundy, As well as some tourism and Coal Mining. The real source of jobs and income for generations has been the now steeply declining fisheries.
Impoverished, isolated from the Rest of Canada by a separatist Quebec. But home to a goodly potion of Canada's military (especially Naval Assets) The Maratimes COULD club together or Newfoundland with it's memories of being an independant Dominion might strike off on it's own. New Brunswick MIGHT very well Ally with the powers that be in New England.
A lot will depend on how actively hostile the remenents of the American Gov are in that region how Territorially aggressive and powerful Quebec becomes and what sort of internal dificulties crop up.
Newfoundland may have many issues either with all of Canada or just the non Maritime ones. 'Newfies' occupy the same place in the same bigoted jokes made by Canadians as Irish do in Great Britain and 'Pollacks' do in parts of the US.
Maybe the Twilight war is time for payback:
"o/~ So here's a dominion ale and a toast/The Dominion of Newfoundland./And here's to the babe thats' born to the coast/.../he's a Newfoundlander NOT Canadian not by a damn site yet. o/~"
A bit of History: Nfld. was largely settled by Irish and the 'Newfie' accent has a lilt not unlike that of the Irish one. Newfoundlander's sometimes refer to their Island as "The Rock"
Nova Scotia and Parts of New Brunswick were originally settled by the French during one of the first settlements of NA. They called the Land Acadia and themselves Acadian. Forceably resettled in Louisianna after refusing to take a loyalty oath to the King during a time of war with the nation of France, many, made their way back to resettle in the not quite so fertile lands of New Brunswick. Nova Scotia now Totally occupied by, largely Scottish, Subjects of the British Empire.
A few Acadians (a-CAD-jyan) remained behind in Lousianna to become a part of those who are now known as 'Cajun'
While the Acadians have their historical greivances they are, interestingly enough, not really a factor in Quebec Separatism.
--what they might do if New Brunswick was on it's own....
... Who knows? What I know about Acadian culture has been learned from books not from any oral and imersion type experience.
New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and the Province of Newfoundland & Labrador Make up what are known as the Maritime Provinces.
With the incredibly long Bridge (20 to 30 Km guessing from a pre-bridge map) to PEI completed a few years ago the first three provinces are linked physically and culturally. OF the three only New Brunswick has Land Borders with a non-Maritime entity (Province of Quebec and State of Maine). Nova Scotia is at the end of the same Peninsula as New Brunswick and PEI is an island just north of both.
Newfoundland is an island about 1/2 the size of Texas. Labrador is a Chunk of the mainland bordering on Northern Quebec and across the icy waters from Greenland, about the size of the other half.
With the exception of PEI (the Potatoe and Golf capital of Canada) These four provinces have always traditionally depended on the Sea for their wealth and employment. While there's been Offshore Drilling and ambitious plans to harness the incredible tides of the Bay of Fundy, As well as some tourism and Coal Mining. The real source of jobs and income for generations has been the now steeply declining fisheries.
Impoverished, isolated from the Rest of Canada by a separatist Quebec. But home to a goodly potion of Canada's military (especially Naval Assets) The Maratimes COULD club together or Newfoundland with it's memories of being an independant Dominion might strike off on it's own. New Brunswick MIGHT very well Ally with the powers that be in New England.
A lot will depend on how actively hostile the remenents of the American Gov are in that region how Territorially aggressive and powerful Quebec becomes and what sort of internal dificulties crop up.
Newfoundland may have many issues either with all of Canada or just the non Maritime ones. 'Newfies' occupy the same place in the same bigoted jokes made by Canadians as Irish do in Great Britain and 'Pollacks' do in parts of the US.
Maybe the Twilight war is time for payback:
"o/~ So here's a dominion ale and a toast/The Dominion of Newfoundland./And here's to the babe thats' born to the coast/.../he's a Newfoundlander NOT Canadian not by a damn site yet. o/~"
A bit of History: Nfld. was largely settled by Irish and the 'Newfie' accent has a lilt not unlike that of the Irish one. Newfoundlander's sometimes refer to their Island as "The Rock"
Nova Scotia and Parts of New Brunswick were originally settled by the French during one of the first settlements of NA. They called the Land Acadia and themselves Acadian. Forceably resettled in Louisianna after refusing to take a loyalty oath to the King during a time of war with the nation of France, many, made their way back to resettle in the not quite so fertile lands of New Brunswick. Nova Scotia now Totally occupied by, largely Scottish, Subjects of the British Empire.
A few Acadians (a-CAD-jyan) remained behind in Lousianna to become a part of those who are now known as 'Cajun'
While the Acadians have their historical greivances they are, interestingly enough, not really a factor in Quebec Separatism.
--what they might do if New Brunswick was on it's own....
... Who knows? What I know about Acadian culture has been learned from books not from any oral and imersion type experience.
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