MT Only: Bracing and gyrostable weapons

[foleypt]

In the MT errata it says that
"A character who remains stationary for the combat round and can brace against something may use the Gyrostable difficulty profile when firing his weapon"

and finding this piece of errata made be happy as I have always been unhappy with some of the to hit rolls at the medium range band and this ruling game some players a chance to hit when it was very difficult otherwise.

However at the game last night one of the players using a non gyro-stabilized rifle managed to convince me that they should be considered braced if they crouched and supported their rifle by their shoulder and knee

similar to below

http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/1660R-2490

I was weak and let them have it, and soon I had another player saying they deserved the gyro-stabilized profile because they were holding their handgun "Dirty Harry" style

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ckles-to-Hovis-buns-and-Dirty-Harrys-gun.html

that I didn't allow but there was much grumbling and this will not be the last of this..

I don't know too much about guns.. but I though the first of my rulings fair because I charged movement points for the player to get into and out of the stance and because the Rifle has a stock

the other I did not allow because I imagine that is just how you hold a high recoil handgun (actually theirs was a low recoil snub..but..) when stationary

what do other people think should be necessary for bracing a weapon?

other bonus questions.. can a weapon that has gyrostable "built in" be gyrostable and move while firing?

I would be right in saying that a prone shooter (i.e. belly to floor) should be considered braced.. both rifle and handgun?

what protection does being prone give you.. having cover makes the to hit task one higher.. should the target being prone also give the same advantage.. I don't think the amount of protection equal but I hat having DMs that are not raise or lower task difficulty.. it seems to be going against the MT task system.

When in MT do you actually get your players declare what speed they are going at.. I insist that the first time a player acts or is acted against they declare their speed (1 or 2) and receive that many movement points and associated dms whether they then actually subsequently move or not.. they stay with the declaration until the next round. Otherwise it is too simple for a player to declare movement or to be stationary when it is convenient for them selves

 

[Fritz_Brown]

So, so, SO many questions!

As to bracing:
The kneeling pose (or sitting pose for civilians) is considered a more stable firing platform. So is the prone position. I think you did right in awarding at least some mod for stability in that situation. The US Army considers neither of them quite as stable as actually bracing your rifle on a sandbag or whatnot. (Kneeling and prone are considered "unsupported" positions if it's only you holding the rifle.)

The two-handed stance Dirty Harry is using is slightly less stable than the positions that are normally taught nowadays (the modified weaver, the tactical, or the isosceles). This is because he's grasping his wrist with his off-hand. This only partly supports the weapon, but might help him to fire such a large handgun without snapping his wrist. None of the handgun stances would I consider "supported" in any sense - not because they're "normal", but because there is no additional point of contact to stabilize the weapon.

In that kneeling pose for a rifle, the advantage comes from having 1) three or more points of contact with a solid, unmoving surface and 2) having the weight of the rifle supported by large muscle groups and skeletal structure. You aren't holding the far end of the rifle up with just your own muscle power (which tends to quake a little if you have to hold steady for long enough). In most of the pistol stances, there is still nothing more than your muscles holding the gun up; the one exception would be if you use the modified Weaver and can lower your upper arm to rest against the side of your torso. You *can* fire a pistol from a kneeling or seated position and acquire similar support to the rifle - it's just that most people don't bother. Of course, to gain the advantages, you can always brace your pistol, too.*

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* I considered linking a picture of a combination isosceles/braced pistol shot that involves the sort of persons who most often benefit from Colt's equalization efforts, but it's marginally NSFW and might get me chastised.

 

[foleypt]

sorry for the question blitz! and thanks for that informative reply

so what I can take from that is that the rifle has some stances that are worthwhile taking but not considered as useful as bracing or lying prone

also there are some better ways to hold a handgun that can give you greater accuracy

As a GM I don't want to give an advantage without there being so cost to the user or else every stationary user will use the advantage.

I imagine some of these stances are already accounted for in the game rules by the characters weapon skill and that is how I am going to account for the handgun stances

I am tempted to go back on my decision to allow a rifle user in the kneeling or sitting stance to gain the gyro-stationary profile. Perhaps they should get a +1 or +2 DM and have to spend a number of movement point to get into and out of the stance.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

so what I can take from that is that the rifle has some stances that are worthwhile taking but not considered as useful as bracing or lying prone

Even lying prone is not as solid as resting it on a bench/sandbag/etc. Basically, "bracing" improves your aim because it adds something other than your muscles to supporting the weapon.

I imagine some of these stances are already accounted for in the game rules by the characters weapon skill and that is how I am going to account for the handgun stances

Yes, the rules would assume you are in a proper stance with a proper grip.

Perhaps they should get a +1 or +2 DM and have to spend a number of movement point to get into and out of the stance.

I think that's a good idea - a lesser DM to reflect their position, but not as much as if it were in a mount or braced on a window sill or whatnot. And, yes, it should cost someone (movement points, etc.) to get into a kneeling/sitting/prone position. I think RoleMaster has the associated percentages in their system. (I might look it up later.) BTW, being in that position will also severely limit their ability to dodge/move.

(BTW, when you say "go back on" I assume you don't mean to retcon the results of the action. Let it stand as it happened, but set the rule for the future.)

 

[foleypt]

no.. don't worry the goons are already dead and there is no going back on that.. serves them right for trying to steal the uranium mine out from my player's business partner!

no I meant going back on my decision and doing it different in future.. gotta be careful nipping precedences while they are still budding

I often start my gaming sessions by point out one or two of my rulings that I made in the heat of the moment that on mature recollection I think ought have be decided otherwise and that probably will be decided otherwise next time

I often scribble these down and then that is how we end up with massive books full of home rules

 

[Blue Ghost]

Gyrostabilization is more than just bracing yourself. It's an internal mechanism that adds more stability to the weapon when fired. It is a form of gyroscope. Someone here posted a lot about this a few years back when the topic came up under the Ship's Locker section.

I tried finding a vid of one, but I guess they've been taken down.

However, related to the topic, is the Kriss submachinegun; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwlFI4Fkvw

 

[foleypt]

Wow that will make one of my SMG using player's happy to know that there exists a TL8 gyrostabalized SMG

I think the tread about gyrostabization you had previously was http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5588

in which case I think that answers one of my previous questions.. because following the example of the tank, a weapon with a gyro should be able to keep it's stability even when moving.. it would just be necessary to lock on to a target and as you ran it would keep pointing at it.

I imagine actually the problem should be if you were locked on to target and needed to change rapidly.. you might be able to turn off the gyro quickly but could you still get advantage from it if you have to suddenly swing the gun to shoot at a target 90 degrees in another direction?

 

[Blue Ghost]

For a tank gun I don't know, but for a small arm I would imagine there'd be a quick "cycle targets" switch somewhere.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

You're not going to get quite the same effect with a handheld weapon as you do with a mounted one, because the human platform isn't engineered for it. The weapon is integrated into the vehicle, and the pivot point never changes, plus there's actually a mechanism that attaches to the vehicle pushing the weapon around as the vehicle moves, keeping it properly aligned.

So, no, your SMG user isn't going to be able to aim at a target down the passageway, lock on, then hip shoot the target as he runs across the open passageway. It just doesn't work that way.

What gyrostabilization is going to do for a small arm is make it not want to wander and jiggle when held in an appropriate stance/properly braced. And, yes... it should probably make slewing onto a new target hard (but not impossible), unless you deselect the old target first.