black powder feat
- Thread starter Mythmere
- Start date
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
SOC-12
My referee and I were recently mucking about with combat feats vis-a-vis D20 Modern and T20 and we were looking at that too. What we came up with was a Primitive Firearms feat that covered muzzle-loading personal arms and unsophisitcated breechloaders (like the Ferguson rifle). Cannon and mortars still require a different feat, called Primitive Heavy Weapons.
One debate I lost was dividing up Swordsman into large blade and small blade proficiencies, but no matter.
This is kind of thing that happens when two military historians start mucking about with combat rules!
One debate I lost was dividing up Swordsman into large blade and small blade proficiencies, but no matter.
This is kind of thing that happens when two military historians start mucking about with combat rules!
Yes. Here are the weapons I think need to be covered (whether by one or two feats):
cannon
gatling gun (chronologically falls in TL 4 unless you say Earth was advanced)
flintlocks and wheellocks
musket
muzzle loading rifle
breech loading rifle
repeating rifle (ala Henry & Winchester)
These weapons all fall into late TL 4, and add considerable cinematic effect.
I'd say that for playability they should all be covered by one feat (because it's a kind of worthless feat - all the other primitive feats translate into a modern weapon). Maybe this feat covers modern (TL5) rifle as well.
Alternatively, the small arms could all be covered under marksman, and the heavy arms might be primitive heavy weapons.
cannon
gatling gun (chronologically falls in TL 4 unless you say Earth was advanced)
flintlocks and wheellocks
musket
muzzle loading rifle
breech loading rifle
repeating rifle (ala Henry & Winchester)
These weapons all fall into late TL 4, and add considerable cinematic effect.
I'd say that for playability they should all be covered by one feat (because it's a kind of worthless feat - all the other primitive feats translate into a modern weapon). Maybe this feat covers modern (TL5) rifle as well.
Alternatively, the small arms could all be covered under marksman, and the heavy arms might be primitive heavy weapons.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
I think a separate feat is a good idea.
While I have no doubt a 'Marksman' can pull the trigger and hit a target (Even there, I gather black powder has a slower burn and requires a longer 'follow through' but I've never shot so I don't know)
The feat covers basic maintence and all aspects of operation if I recall.
Thus a separate feat for Black Powder small arms seems entirely appropriate.
I suspect however that a Black Powder Marksman could shoot a modern firearm just fine though. ;]
While I have no doubt a 'Marksman' can pull the trigger and hit a target (Even there, I gather black powder has a slower burn and requires a longer 'follow through' but I've never shot so I don't know)
The feat covers basic maintence and all aspects of operation if I recall.
Thus a separate feat for Black Powder small arms seems entirely appropriate.
I suspect however that a Black Powder Marksman could shoot a modern firearm just fine though. ;]
lightsenshi
SOC-12
From personal experience, the main difference between your average black powder weapon and a more modern firearm has to do with recoil (some black powder weapons aren't muzzle loaders). The average black powder rifle runs somewhere in the 50 caliber range and tends to kick like a 12 gauge. Other than that, they handle like normal firearms.
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
SOC-12
My pitch on this whole thing is simply that weapons that require loose powder to be muzzle loaded are considered primitive, as are paper-wrapped cartridges (as in American Civil War rifles). This would include matchlocks, flintlocks and so on.
Those that fire brass cartidges are considered modern, be they breechloaders, Winchesters, Springfields or what have you. These all could/would/should be included in Marksman.
Gatlings would be a Heavy Weapon at about late TL 4. Maxims and Lewis guns are Heavy Weapons at about mid-TL 5. Gatlings, and Nordenfelt type pieces could be considered Primitive Heavy Weapons. Maxim guns and later are just Heavy Weapons using the Gunnery skill.
Cannon and mortars would not change too much in that TL range because their actions didn't change. While a Parrot rifle of the American Civil War might shoot farther and do more damage than a falconne of the English Civil War, the basic functions to lay, load, and fire the guns didn't change all that much. Thus they could all be bunched into the Primitive Artillery Feat.
Insofar as earlier gear goes (ballistae, trebuchets, etc.), there could just be a simple Early Siege Engine feat that implies expertise with artillery that does not use gunpowder.
Now, my big question is this... WHY are we spending time on feats that no character in their right mind would purchase???
Those that fire brass cartidges are considered modern, be they breechloaders, Winchesters, Springfields or what have you. These all could/would/should be included in Marksman.
Gatlings would be a Heavy Weapon at about late TL 4. Maxims and Lewis guns are Heavy Weapons at about mid-TL 5. Gatlings, and Nordenfelt type pieces could be considered Primitive Heavy Weapons. Maxim guns and later are just Heavy Weapons using the Gunnery skill.
Cannon and mortars would not change too much in that TL range because their actions didn't change. While a Parrot rifle of the American Civil War might shoot farther and do more damage than a falconne of the English Civil War, the basic functions to lay, load, and fire the guns didn't change all that much. Thus they could all be bunched into the Primitive Artillery Feat.
Insofar as earlier gear goes (ballistae, trebuchets, etc.), there could just be a simple Early Siege Engine feat that implies expertise with artillery that does not use gunpowder.
Now, my big question is this... WHY are we spending time on feats that no character in their right mind would purchase???
Because of NPCs! The color and excitement of TL 4 is a fantastic backdrop. Many people had outrageous French accents! Many people were gunslingers and rustlers and riverboat gamblers! Bagpipes! Ebeneezer Scrooge! The Charge of the Light Brigade! Custer! Queen Victoria! Great heavens, man, that's why.
However. I agree with you that it makes SENSE to theorize that the black powder feat is segregated due to the use of dry powder. But because it is basically an NPC feat that a player would only take for background color, it should cover all firearms prior to TL 5, from the arquebus to the vickers machine gun. Just for playability. Maybe the name of the feat should be archaic firearms rather than black powder.
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
SOC-12
Two of my all-time favorite character personae were my 1889 character and 7th Sea character:
Wesley Jacob Devereax: A South Carolinian who served "some small distinction" in the 10th US Cavalry (Buffalo Soldiers) before he went the Crown Colony of Syrtis Major to soar the skies with the Red Captains...With the thickest Rhett Butler accent I could manage ("and mah daddy th' Cunnel's LeMat cavulry pistul").
Rodrigo Guillermo Maria-Theresa Velasquez de la Punta de Estrellita: An incredibly overconfident left-handed Castillian swordsman who loathes all things Montaignard (But of course I succeded! I am RODRIGO! Avante' cabballeros!").
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
SOC-12
My Production Neutrino Sensor has been down lately (probably still have it trained on the wrong vector waiting for TA-5 ) But I'll see if I can't get my Droyne Sport Sensor Operator on it...
"Ping! Get in here!"
) But I'll see if I can't get my Droyne Sport Sensor Operator on it..."Ping! Get in here!"
Shouldn't breach loading and repeating rifles be covered by Combat Rifleman? Once you have cartridges, firing a rifle is pretty much the same, especially since Combat Rifleman already covers chemical slugthrowers and gauss weapons.
On the flip side, someone who is good with a musket is going to have a very easy time learning how to use a gauss rifle or other modern weapon. The aiming and firing is basically the same and the loading is much, much easier.
Of course, there's no reason why a given weapon can't fall under more than one proficiency...
Bolie IV
On the flip side, someone who is good with a musket is going to have a very easy time learning how to use a gauss rifle or other modern weapon. The aiming and firing is basically the same and the loading is much, much easier.
Of course, there's no reason why a given weapon can't fall under more than one proficiency...
Bolie IV
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
I agree. I don't see what makes most Tl 5-9 rifles different (except in greater refinement and simplicity) than say the Henry rifle.
Maybe it's strecting it for weapons with a power source (might plug the battery in backwards or something )
But I also have NO problems with feats haveing a small overlap of sets.
Maybe it's strecting it for weapons with a power source (might plug the battery in backwards or something )
But I also have NO problems with feats haveing a small overlap of sets.
retiredcoastie
SOC-1
Since I use blackpowder pistols and rifles for target shooting as well as modern firearms, I can say with some certainty that there is a world of difference between blackpowder firearms and modern (smokeless powder) firearms.
First: Blackpowder does not kick -- rather, it pushes. The force that the bullet (ball) travels at is much lower than modern firearms. Less forward motion --less recoil.
Second: A Blackpowder marksman is more inclined to wait for a clean shot than just blaze away.
He knows that his firearm has a shorter range, the target is obscured by the cloud of smoke after he fires, and it has to be reloaded (and that takes time).
Don't get me wrong, though. Blackpowder firearms are just as deadly as other guns. A head shot with a blackpower .54 bullet and a .308 rifle slug will both do massive damage to a melon.
Actually the blackpowder .54 bullet does a better job -- the mellon explodes. With the .308, the bullet is travelling so fast that there is just a small hole at the point of impact and a larger exit wound.
Personally, I prefer the exploding mellon even though it means that I have to usa a different target then.
Yours in service,
Retired Coastie
First: Blackpowder does not kick -- rather, it pushes. The force that the bullet (ball) travels at is much lower than modern firearms. Less forward motion --less recoil.
Second: A Blackpowder marksman is more inclined to wait for a clean shot than just blaze away.
Don't get me wrong, though. Blackpowder firearms are just as deadly as other guns. A head shot with a blackpower .54 bullet and a .308 rifle slug will both do massive damage to a melon.
Actually the blackpowder .54 bullet does a better job -- the mellon explodes. With the .308, the bullet is travelling so fast that there is just a small hole at the point of impact and a larger exit wound.
Personally, I prefer the exploding mellon even though it means that I have to usa a different target then.
Yours in service,
Retired Coastie
