Big ships vs. little ships

[Windknight]

I have a question for anyone who's actually done a battle involving gargantuan ships:

According to the rules, SI points usually double everytime you multiply a ship's size by ten. (I can't recall the exact stats at the moment, but I'm just summarizing the general point).

So, the amount of firepower a ship can carry increases by something like ten times every times every time you double the HP.

In that case, what sense is there in ever building a million-ton dreadnought.

A single 100,000 ton dreadnought may have equivalent firepower to a hundred 1,000 ton destroyers, but together the hundred destroyers would have FIFTY times the SI points.

So, assuming I'm not ignoring some horrible factor, the dreadnought (which costs as much as a hundred destroyers) will probably just take out two or three of its opponents before being brutally pulverized into space dust.

Granted, you can have expensive globe generators on a big dreadnought, but that hinders your outgoing fire as well.

Am I wrong about this? If not, what's the point of a dreadnought anyway?

As is, if I'm ever drafted to design my planet's stellar navy I'm wholeheartedly planning to base my fleet on 1000 ton gunboats and 10,000 ton carriers.

 

[mike wightman]

Hi Windknight, welcome aboard.

The basic answer to this is that T20 large ship combat is not the same as in High Guard. It is either broken, or a deliberate choice to make destroyer and light cruiser sized ships much more of a threat to the multi kt battlewagons.
If the latter then there is absolutely no point in building ships over 100,000t in T20 as they are destroyed too easily by much cheaper craft.

 

[Windknight]

Thanks for the welcome, Sig Oddra.

Hmmm... that explains it. I've never played High Guard though; did the rules favor battlewagons more?

 

[The Oz]

High Guard is marginally more favorable to big ships than T20 is, but it's not much of a difference. The HG spinal meson gun is so deadly that big ships are too vulnerable and it's usually better (in a tournament-type environment) to build lots of small ships with spinal meson guns (to kill heavily armored ships) and lots of small ships with lots of missile bays (to kill the little ships with the spinal meson guns). Some fleet designers also like to include a few medium-sized ships with all the armor they can carry (for killing the little ships with lots of missile bays). This is the classic "meson sled-missile boat-armored rock" fleet design strategy that evolved fairly early in HG tournaments.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually in T20 you can build a nice battlewagon with a bunch of 100T Meson bays and no spinal and kill all sorts of smaller ships. The biggest ship in T20 you need is one that carries a Spinal Meson or three 100T Meson Bays. But an 8 million ton Super Drednaught with lots and lots of 100T Meson bays and no spinals would at least force your enemy to stay honest.

(Can't kill it with an average Meson Spinal crit, though two will do the job nicely.

)

 

[mike wightman]

And that 8Mton super ship would cost how much?

But I see your point. In T20 it may be worth building 100kt + ships with as many meson bays as they can carry and no spinal mounts. Since it is the critical hits that kill the enemy ships (and negate meson screen damage reduction).

This won't work with High Guard, of course, because a decent meson screen prevents bay meson weapons from penetrating at all.

I wonder if the T20 rules for large ships will be reviewed and changed if there is ever a second edition of T20?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
And that 8Mton super ship would cost how much?

But I see your point. In T20 it may be worth building 100kt + ships with as many meson bays as they can carry and no spinal mounts. Since it is the critical hits that kill the enemy ships (and negate meson screen damage reduction).

This won't work with High Guard, of course, because a decent meson screen prevents bay meson weapons from penetrating at all.

I wonder if the T20 rules for large ships will be reviewed and changed if there is ever a second edition of T20?

It, of course, costs too fragging much. But it is the minimum size that will survive a Spinal Meson Crit. (Not by much mind you but it will survive it.

But think how many 100T Meson bays you could stick on there.

And a 100DTon Meson bay crit will kill a Cruiser. (2 kill a Dred.) With a 30% chance to crit, how many Cruisers can you kill in the first turn.

You aren't likely to get more than one turn, but this is Traveller and combat is supposed to be deadly.

I do so hope the Starship combat rules will be redone, especially when it comes to Naval combat. I mean what we have is fine for a pair of ships Kinunir size and smaller to duke it out, but it definitely falls apart when you start playing with bays and/or Naval Vessels.) (HG fell apart when fighting two small ships, especially small fast fighters.)

I wonder what will be done with the Honorverse book. (Something will have to be done before then.)

 

[Windknight]

I'll note that everything I say here is basically armchair theorism. I haven't found anyone to test my weird traveller ship combat ideas with.

This is the classic "meson sled-missile boat-armored rock" fleet design strategy that evolved fairly early in HG tournaments

Hmmm... an interesting tactical dynamic. I wonder if there is an equivalent dynamic for T20.

On the other hand, if the game tends to break down for large naval vessels...

Actually in T20 you can build a nice battlewagon with a bunch of 100T Meson bays and no spinal and kill all sorts of smaller ships.

Yes; I could see how this would be pretty bloody powerful. But on the other hand you could build a larger force of 1000-ton destroyers equipped with 100 ton meson bays for the same price. Both fleets have the same firepower, and the destroyer fleet is much more durable. And flexible.

And, if the dreadnought happens to not get the first shot off - a couple good meson crits and its dead.

Of course, the DN would have say, better sensors, a better computer, and more room for nice toys. And it would be *fun*.

I do so hope the Starship combat rules will be redone, especially when it comes to Naval combat. I mean what we have is fine for a pair of ships Kinunir size and smaller to duke it out, but it definitely falls apart when you start playing with bays and/or Naval Vessels.) (HG fell apart when fighting two small ships, especially small fast fighters.)

Hmmm... I'm curious about something else; how did HG combat break down with small ships?

 

[flykiller]

and lots of small ships with lots of missile bays (to kill the little ships with the spinal meson guns)

I've found that if the meson boats are ag 6, armor 15, and nuc damper 9, the missile boats don't get very far.

 

[flykiller]

did the rules favor battlewagons more?

hg2 has no sensor rules, no maneuver, and almost no tactics. the ships just line up and blast away. spinal meson guns destroy any ship they hit, and a given vessel can carry only one spinal mount. therefore at tech 15 the only thing that works is to put out as many meson spinal mounts as possible.

at tech 12, where nuclear dampers are ineffective, massive salvos of nukes rule the day. the only hope of defense is hull dispersal, i.e. as many small independent hulls as possible. a hull of 1k dtons is -1 to be hit and can hold a factor 9 missile bay, therefore tech 12 fleets will consist of huge numbers of 1k dton vessels.

never studied tech 13 or 14. in my opinion the tech 12 dynamic holds true at tech 13, because the nascent nuke dampers are still feeble against factor 9 missile salvos but do stop factor 3 missile salvos from fighters.

at all tech levels properly designed fighters are incapable of hitting each other with anything at all.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />and lots of small ships with lots of missile bays (to kill the little ships with the spinal meson guns)

I've found that if the meson boats are ag 6, armor 15, and nuc damper 9, the missile boats don't get very far. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, you can design a meson sled (non-jump-capable) at TL15 with those characteristics in only 7000 dtons. Of course you need a jump tender for them, but they're so small you can carry a lot of them with a fairly small tender.

Still, you can buy at least four times as many sub-2000 dton missile bay-carrying missile boats for the same money as such a meson sled. Their missiles will actually hit more often than the meson sled meson gun, and while they won't do as much damage as often they can wear the meson sleds down.

 

[mike wightman]

In which case build a 19kt buffered planetoid with 14 points of additional armour, it is immune (in High Guard combat) to all weapons apart from meson guns

 

[flykiller]

Still, you can buy at least four times as many sub-2000 dton missile bay-carrying missile boats for the same money as such a meson sled. Their missiles will actually hit more often than the meson sled meson gun, and while they won't do as much damage as often they can wear the meson sleds down.

to be clear, in my tests I did set a missile load capacity - 50 factor 9 salvos per 50 dton bay, 100 factor 9 salvos per 100 dton bay. the missile boats ran out of missiles before the meson boats ran out of fuel. if one allows unlimited missiles then the missile boats do indeed win.

 

[mike wightman]

Another little foible of High Guard. Missile turrets and bays can be fired as many times as you like since there are no magazine rules.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
In which case build a 19kt buffered planetoid with 14 points of additional armour, it is immune (in High Guard combat) to all weapons apart from meson guns

And that is exactly what the "armored rock" ship is..... and its natural enemy is, of course, the meson sled.

'Round and round we go!!!

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Windknight:
Hmmm... I'm curious about something else; how did HG combat break down with small ships?

Easy enough to demonstrate. Pick a fighter. The Rampart, the Dragonfly, the Kia (Who in their right mind would name a class of fighters the Kia (Killed In Action!

) or the Sup-9 FH. Get out your High Guard rules and one for each side of those fighters and have them shoot at each other. Or take a Valor and a Zhidts and have them shoot at each other. I think, without looking at the combat tables in the second case you are actually capable of scoring a hit, with the Valor, eventually but the Valor, with 4 factor 3 missile batteries has a reasonable chance to run out of missiles before actually scoring the hit or doing any real damage. The Zhidts can't hit the Valor, even with its 4 factor 4 laser batteries, and even if it could, it is unlikely to damage it.

Even two scout ships have a difficult time hitting each other. Pirates have a really hard time hitting merchants. (Though at least they can hit them.) And the Sup-9 200T SDB virtually requires a Spinal mount to do any damage to it.

 

[flykiller]

Missile turrets and bays can be fired as many times as you like since there are no magazine rules.

well, there is common sense. don't like to see wands of magic missiles in a sci-fi game.

 

[mike wightman]

Oh I quite agree, especially since High Guard 1st edition did have rules for missile magazines

The following is all IMTU.

High Guard 2nd edition does not mention limiting the number of turns that missiles may be used before expended.

Now if you turn to Striker it mentions that 50t bays have 25 launchers and 100t bays have 50 launchers.
If so that leaves half of the bay for missile storage.
CT tells us that 1 missile turret launcher has a 3 missile capacity.
Does each bay launcher also hold 3 missiles?
If so that gives each bay 3 turns of firing.

How big is a bay missile?
Assume 100kg perhaps? That makes 10 per ton.
So a 50t bay could have 25x3 + 25x10, or enough missiles for 13 turns of combat (also assuming gunners and support crew reload empty launchers).

How long do High Guard combats last?

 

[fredofmars]

I wrote an article for missile magazines in HG2:

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/missilemags.html

I address the size of missiles, and capacity of turret and bay launchers, and how to design magazines.
- Joseph

 

[TheDS]

I have forgotten more about space combat than you fellows will ever know, and naturally, the majority of the forgotten stuff is the details that would be important to whatever discussion I'm in.

I do not agree that Traveller combat is necessarily quick and violent. How many stories have you watched or read where the good guys' ship takes a beating, as does the ship of the main bad guys?

I have always thought that space combat should be like Age of Sail engagements. Ships pounded on each other for hours, with nothing significant happening... at least in the case of the main battlewagons. A Man of War could probably quickly annihilate a lesser ship with just one good salvo (though it might take a few tries to GET that one GOOD salvo). Against another Man of War, the ship is better protected and they have hundreds of backup crew, so even losing half your crew is no big deal.

So in general, I feel that space combat should be something that takes a few rounds.

I also believe there should be a random chance of problems. By what I suggested above, any advantage quickly multiplies so that the winner doesn't take many losses (which gives the loser a chance to pull out before he has lost his whole force). So there should be a random element that may even out the forces a bit. For instance, in a 2 to 1 battle, if there is a random chance of one of the ships blowing up (powder mag hit, for instance), then that gives the defender some hope of winning such a battle, and maybe he'll risk staying in the battle long enough to see if he got lucky (or the enemy got unlucky). Having a chance to win, even until the very end, is a dynamic used in a lot of recent family/board games, Age of Mythology the Boardgame coming to mind. Who wants to play a game that's decided on the first turn?

Anyway, a meson gun should not be an insta-kill, except perhaps against a SMALLER ship (though it would depend on the size of the gun, not the ship). FFS allowed you to have bigger guns on bigger ships, meaning megaton ships had a point: the guns had power and range over smaller guns, and the big ships could mount enough armor or screens to reduce the damage of smaller hits. Why should a meson turret destroy a capital ship, except through an extreeeemely lucky shot? (Or a really poor design, which didn't mount good enough meson screens.)

I don't know that any of the Traveller games had a good space combat system. HG was apparently the best, considering the following it has. I have so far used a chopped down version of my own space combat system, in which there is no one ultimate ship design. Kind of like the previously mentioned paper-rock-scissors, but with more choices.

But I wouldn't make armor or screens be AC, it should be DR.