Beyond Maximum Imperial Tech

[aramis]

A dirigible with a jump drive?

shadowcat20; I know that antimatter is mentioned on the TL chart, but I don't ever remember rules being published for it as an energy source.

You have to have a minimum drive field of 100Td. Normally, you do this with hull.

Now, using HG figures (because in CT Bk2 + Adv 5, we can model inflatables)...

Bridge	20
Model 1	01
JD J1	02
MD M1	02
PP P1 TL15	1
SR x1	04
Fuel PP	01
Fuel JD	10
Subtotal	41
Inflatable Tonnage	59
Inflatable stowed size	5.9

So this means we could, in theory, create an inflatable 47Td ship by twisting a few rules to the breaking point...

 

[Blue Ghost]

... a jump capable Good Year Blimp?

http://www.ecofriend.com/5-futuristic-blimps-run-clean-energy.html

 

[Ulsyus]

T5 has the best rundown of what TL18 has available, though as mentioned earlier the MT Referees Companion has a great table that was probably the forerunner of pp504-508.

Matter Transport kicks in at TL19, but early versions could appear on your world.
Anti-matter is fully developed by TL16, so the ships from that system would likely carry those sorts of power plants.

There's a lot of new items, and by Tl18 they could have significant ramifications for a society. True artificial intelligence, and artificial persons begs the question; does the population rating of A refer only to humaniti, or all beings whether in vivo, in vitro, de carne or de consilio

 

[robject]

T5 has the best rundown of what TL18 has available, though as mentioned earlier the MT Referees Companion has a great table that was probably the forerunner of pp504-508.

Matter Transport kicks in at TL19, but early versions could appear on your world.
Anti-matter is fully developed by TL16, so the ships from that system would likely carry those sorts of power plants.

There's a lot of new items, and by Tl18 they could have significant ramifications for a society. True artificial intelligence, and artificial persons begs the question; does the population rating of A refer only to humaniti, or all beings whether in vivo, in vitro, de carne or de consilio

Also from T5 for a TL 18 civilization:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]"Shock projectors", sort of like stunners/tasers, which work up to 1 km distance.
Fusion Carbines and Rifles.
Advanced Laser Designators (which double as very-long-range sniper weapons).
Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades (maybe).
Vehicle-mounted Advanced Fusion Autocannons.
Personal nuclear dampers.

For starships:

Holovisors.
Antimatter Power Plants (at rating 1).
Collectors (jump drive trickle power sources like those found on ANNIC NOVA) at rating 5.
Jump-7, Jump-8, and Jump-9.
Hop-1 and Hop-2 drives.
Jump Inducer (barbette weapon).
Disruptor (barbette weapon).
Grav scrambler (projected screen which stops gravitics from working).

[/FONT]

 

[aramis]

T5 has the best rundown of what TL18 has available, though as mentioned earlier the MT Referees Companion has a great table that was probably the forerunner of pp504-508.

Matter Transport kicks in at TL19, but early versions could appear on your world.
Anti-matter is fully developed by TL16, so the ships from that system would likely carry those sorts of power plants.

According to MT, no Antimatter becomes available at TL17, and isn't mature for another 4 TL's...
For comparison... assuming TL15 Fusion at 14kL or larger is the baseline, and observing that there's no scale efficiency multiplier for antimatter, but there is for fusion:
TL17 Antimatter is roughly 24x the power
TL18 is 48x the power.
TL19 is 120x the power
TL20 is 714x the power
TL21 is 2380x the power.

 

[Carlobrand]

According to MT, no Antimatter becomes available at TL17, and isn't mature for another 4 TL's...
For comparison... assuming TL15 Fusion at 14kL or larger is the baseline, and observing that there's no scale efficiency multiplier for antimatter, but there is for fusion:
TL17 Antimatter is roughly 24x the power
TL18 is 48x the power.
TL19 is 120x the power
TL20 is 714x the power
TL21 is 2380x the power.

MT = MegaTrav? I'm not clear where you're getting your numbers from.

A TL17 MT antimatter pod is 8 cubic meters, masses 6 tons and puts out 500 megawatts, consuming 250 thousand liters of antimatter per year - or about 28.54 per hour (and presumably an equal quantity of matter).

A TL15 MT fusion plant at 1 cubic meter masses 2 tons and puts out 6 megawatts, consuming 5 liters hydrogen per hour. One of the big boys (14 m³ and larger) gets a 300% output mod, so 252 Mw for a 14 cubic meter plant consuming 90 liters per hour.

By volume, the AM plant turns out 62.5 Mw per cubic meter verses 18 for the big fusion plant: 3.47 times

By fuel consumption, the pod turns out 500 Mw at 28.54 liters per hour, or ~17.5 Mw per liter per hour, verses 252 at 90 or 2.8 Mw per liter per hour: 6.25 times.

I'm obviously not understanding something, 'cause I can't for the life of me figure how 250 kiloliters of antimatter could be at the heart of an 8 kiloliter antimatter reactor.

 

[Blue Ghost]

*EDIT*

Oops; "Kilo" liters. Last I checked 250 > 8.

New math and all.

 

[aramis]

MT = MegaTrav? I'm not clear where you're getting your numbers from.

A TL17 MT antimatter pod is 8 cubic meters, masses 6 tons and puts out 500 megawatts, consuming 250 thousand liters of antimatter per year - or about 28.54 per hour (and presumably an equal quantity of matter).

A TL15 MT fusion plant at 1 cubic meter masses 2 tons and puts out 6 megawatts, consuming 5 liters hydrogen per hour. One of the big boys (14 m³ and larger) gets a 300% output mod, so 252 Mw for a 14 cubic meter plant consuming 90 liters per hour.

By volume, the AM plant turns out 62.5 Mw per cubic meter verses 18 for the big fusion plant: 3.47 times

By fuel consumption, the pod turns out 500 Mw at 28.54 liters per hour, or ~17.5 Mw per liter per hour, verses 252 at 90 or 2.8 Mw per liter per hour: 6.25 times.

I'm obviously not understanding something, 'cause I can't for the life of me figure how 250 kiloliters of antimatter could be at the heart of an 8 kiloliter antimatter reactor.

Yes, MegaTraveller. Specifically, Ref's Manual, page 64.

TL15 Fusion is 7MW/kL, x3 for being over 14kL, = 21 MW/kL.
TL17 is the lowest TL shown in MT Ref's Manual - and it's 500MW/kL.

500/21 = 23.8 and some chnge...

 

[Carlobrand]

Yes, MegaTraveller. Specifically, Ref's Manual, page 64.

TL15 Fusion is 7MW/kL, x3 for being over 14kL, = 21 MW/kL.
TL17 is the lowest TL shown in MT Ref's Manual - and it's 500MW/kL.

500/21 = 23.8 and some chnge...

Umm, TL 16 fusion is 7 MW per KL, unless I've missed an errata.

AM plants get weird. Rules say, "Power Out, Weight, and Price are expressed per kiloliter," but then the AM table does a switcheroo and has a column labeled "Volume" instead of "Min. volume", under which the TL17 plant is given an 8 kiloliter volume. I infer that this is the size of one plant producing 500 Mw. I can't see any other reason they would change the title of the column, and errata hasn't corrected that piece.

Of course, that logic yields a TL21 backpack-size power plant that weighs 2 tons and puts out 50,000 megawatts, but in the absence of errata saying otherwise, I'm obliged to believe that was intended. On the other hand, that density makes steel look like balsa wood; must be interesting trying to build a mounting for something like that.

Errata does add "fuel pods," by which I infer that the plant goes through 250 KL a year of antimatter but you don't actually need to have a year's supply with you at any one time.

(That power output seems rather low for total conversion.)

If it is an error and it's intended to mean minimum volume, we might need to add that piece to Errata.

 

[whulorigan]

(That power output seems rather low for total conversion.)

Keep in mind that an Antimatter Power Plant does not necessarily equate to a "Total Conversion" Power Plant. 100% of the mass of the matter/antimatter is converted to energy (ultimately in the form of gamma-photon annihilation quanta), but the problem is that you then have to convert those gamma photons to usable electrical power somehow (and that process may not be 100% efficient, and is in fact likely to be far from 100%).

True "Total Conversion" Power (i.e 100% efficient conversion of mass to direct electrical power) is likely to be post TL-21 Ultratech.

 

[Ulsyus]

According to MT, no Antimatter becomes available at TL17, and isn't mature for another 4 TL's...

T5 doesn't seem to make that distinction, so should it be read that the Prototypes are available at TL16, or that the Basic models are available at point?

 

[whulorigan]

T5 doesn't seem to make that distinction, so should it be read that the Prototypes are available at TL16, or that the Basic models are available at point?

In the BBB, though the TL Chart lists Antimatter Power as a general development at TL16 on p.504, the charts on p.338 & 507 both list a Potential-1 Antimatter plant as a TL19 Standard development. That would mean that the Early version Potential-1 A-Plant is TL18, and the Prototype is TL17. An "Experimental" Laboratory test project Potential-1 A-Plant could be built at TL16.

Note that stage effects may further modify the actual de facto performance level.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I'm altogether bleary eyed on the whole TL concept. And this reply actually relates back to my poll. A power plant of any technology will operate on any world given that conditions for its operation are met. A Ford or Nissan car engine, provided fuel and air, will run on a world dominated by medieval or classical era natives, as it will on some super-magic-tech world.

And, given that there's no "prime directive" (non-interference in native cultures and customs as per Star Trek, as per the quote in the rules), then that means tech can flow freely from one world to the next.

I am therefore puzzled as to why one world might be "experimenting" with anti-matter power plants, while another has them in full bloom, and the technology is freely placed into the latest starship designs, or to power city municipal grids.

I'm wondering if someone could comment on this.

 

[whulorigan]

I am therefore puzzled as to why one world might be "experimenting" with anti-matter power plants, while another has them in full bloom, and the technology is freely placed into the latest starship designs, or to power city municipal grids.

I'm wondering if someone could comment on this.

I think you have to keep in mind that the T5 BBB, as has been noted before, is a "toolkit" - the TL Stage Effects Charts are a generalized template for how technology progresses.

I think it is up to the GM to decide whether or not a particular game universe situation warrants "Experimental Technology" being researched or "Advanced Tech" being produced, rather than just purchasing off-world tech from the system next door. For example, if you are playing in the OTU during "Hard Times", you may not be able to get tech from the world next door like you used to in the "good old days".

The rules are there for the GM to implement (or not) as necessary.

 

[aramis]

There is a restriction on trade goods mentioned in an article. IIRC, it's limited to ±5 TL's, as an economic measure to prevent marginalization of the low tech populations.
Still, that's not a sharp blockage.

 

[Blue Ghost]

This kind of relates back to my poll, because to me the Tech Level scheme "dates" the game in terms of what it initially set out to do (be a generic sci-fi RPG), and what it's become over the last couple decades; a sci-fi RPG with a specific setting.

In "Leviathan", or similar campaign that is loosely defined, or undefined, your ship, or your group of players, visited worlds that were disparate in terms of political or other social connections. The reason for that was because there wasn't a great deal of background, and the idea behind the system/planet generator was that the referee would create something for the players.

Now that the setting is essentially cast in hard cement, even with the barrier on trade (I also seem to recall that technologies were later said to be licensed out to worlds and companies), it doesn't seem like a world, say a jump away, that is languishing in a relatively low (pre-stellar) envionrment, would not be allowed technology from the thriving system one jump over with a massive Type-A starport, and all kinds of technology (I wish I could cite some examples).

And it's part of the reason I posted the poll in the other section of the BBS.

 

[Hemdian]

I am therefore puzzled as to why one world might be "experimenting" with anti-matter power plants, while another has them in full bloom, and the technology is freely placed into the latest starship designs, or to power city municipal grids.

I'm wondering if someone could comment on this.

Just spit-balling here. My take is that TL (which is about manufacturing ability not scientific knowledge) is not an all or nothing deal. For example, allegedly the Roman Empire were sufficiently advanced that, if they'd known about gunpowder, they could have built SMGs. But even if you took a full set of blueprints for an Uzi back in time, the subsequent Roman 'Uzi' would still not be as good. They might have the basic materials technology but they wouldn't have been able to machine parts to the same tolerances. Thus their SMGs would have been cruder and more 'primitive' ... which is what the T5 stage effects reflect (even if the stage name is sometimes misleading).

A world's TL is a reflection of local infrastructure, not knowledge.

Also, a world's TL is stated from the perspective of a trader. From a consumer's point of view the availability of high tech items can change as a result of trade imports. Depending on the level of trade, and on how self-sufficient a world wants to be, you could have worlds who's economy is operating a level or two beyond what the local TL can produce. But given travel delays, local support and maintenance are also factors to be taken into account.

So (in answer to your question) the antimatter reactor would be 'experimental', not because it isn't understood, but because the components can't be made as good as those on the neighbour world ... yet.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I guess I always viewed tech levels at what was available if you really pressed the resources, or averaged out what people were mostly using for their everyday lives. But, like a lot of descriptors, it was a bit porous to "flukes" or spikes in technology that exceeded what was commonly available.

But, I understand your explanation.

 

[JimMarn]

Mythbusters were told of a myth of ancient China having a hand cranked ballista, basically a rapid fire, slow speed machine gun.

They found some old drawings and managed to get good distance and good hits with it.

I wondered what the Roman empire could have done with such machines ? So it is possible they could have taken the principles of the Uzi, and made a ballista machine gun out of it.

 

[Blue Ghost]

But would all provinces have used the same weapon, or would it have been reserved for specific military elements?