Gray Pennell
SOC-12
Hi all I do not know if someone has answered this but I am going to ask anyways. Of the online Traveller Atlases which one is the most accurate UWPs wise?
Best online Atlas
- Thread starter Gray Pennell
- Start date
I think www.travellermap.com is probably the best IMO.
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Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Great site.
Remember, some UWPs were broken to start with!
Remember, some UWPs were broken to start with!
Most of the UWPs are based around the flawed and non-canon sunbane data set. But its still a worthwhile site.
Gray Pennell
SOC-12
Ok what about the Interactive Atlas of the Impeuim? I dig the system navigation bit it has. I know the Spinward March data comes from GURPS I am not sure of its Trojan Reach data.
I don't think you'll find any online or offline detailed Atlas which is not based on this data set - your opinion of which I agree with.
There are CT canon sources for: Spinward Marches, Solomani Rim and Gvurrdon and parts of: Reft, Trojan Reaches, Old Expanses, and Reavers Deep. On top of that Atlas of The Imperium provided a dot map for Imperium and surrounds. AFAIK, both the Paranoia Press (Vanguard Reaches and The Beyond) and Judges Guild (Ley, Gateway, Glimmerdrift and Crucis Margin) sectors have been declared Non-canon.
MT expanded to include Hinterworlds and Mendan. TNE brought in Deneb, All of Trojan Reaches and Reft. T4's errata gives us data for 12 Imperial sectors (albeit for M0.) T20 gave us an revised version of the JG sectors. I don't think MgT has yet added any new sectors?
Foreven is a referee preserve with a dot map. IMHO a few more referee preserves wouldn't go astray, but I'm not holding my breath.
MT expanded to include Hinterworlds and Mendan. TNE brought in Deneb, All of Trojan Reaches and Reft. T4's errata gives us data for 12 Imperial sectors (albeit for M0.) T20 gave us an revised version of the JG sectors. I don't think MgT has yet added any new sectors?
Foreven is a referee preserve with a dot map. IMHO a few more referee preserves wouldn't go astray, but I'm not holding my breath.
Sorry missed that one and Gateway I think in MTJ4. Mind you, like all DGP material, its liable to be overwritten by some new author without access to it (though the material that's made it later canon pubs is safe.)
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Hey folks. This is the guy behind travellermap.com here.
As others have pointed out, "accurate" depends on your metric for judging accuracy. The canonical sources contradict each other on occasion, what some view as cleanup others view as heresy, etc.
I try to be very explicit about the sources used here (look under Credits and Data Sources): http://travellermap.com/info.htm - I admit to being torn in three directions. I love the "pure" Classic Traveller universe, but want a broad data corpus, but yet also want to have forward-looking data.
To that end, I try and use the "T5" cleanup data where possible, which aims to cover all of the Imperial worlds, and is based on (in priority order) the detailed GDW CT canon sources (listed in this thread), the GDW Atlas of the Imperium, and the DGP data uploaded to GEnie with HIWG additions (what's commonly called "Sunbane"). I fall back to data based on GDW and DGP sources where possible (e.g. derived from dotmaps), HIWG and finally other submissions.
Eventually, the site will support filtering to eras (e.g. "show me 1116 data if possible, other if necessary" or "show me only 1105 data, nothing else"), and "alternate universes" like the Judges Guild sectors.
As others have pointed out, "accurate" depends on your metric for judging accuracy. The canonical sources contradict each other on occasion, what some view as cleanup others view as heresy, etc.
I try to be very explicit about the sources used here (look under Credits and Data Sources): http://travellermap.com/info.htm - I admit to being torn in three directions. I love the "pure" Classic Traveller universe, but want a broad data corpus, but yet also want to have forward-looking data.
To that end, I try and use the "T5" cleanup data where possible, which aims to cover all of the Imperial worlds, and is based on (in priority order) the detailed GDW CT canon sources (listed in this thread), the GDW Atlas of the Imperium, and the DGP data uploaded to GEnie with HIWG additions (what's commonly called "Sunbane"). I fall back to data based on GDW and DGP sources where possible (e.g. derived from dotmaps), HIWG and finally other submissions.
Eventually, the site will support filtering to eras (e.g. "show me 1116 data if possible, other if necessary" or "show me only 1105 data, nothing else"), and "alternate universes" like the Judges Guild sectors.
Gray Pennell
SOC-12
Well I did some reviews. It seems Traveller Map and Traveller Atlas uses DGP data to develop the Trojan Reach. There seems to be no listing of where Interactive Atlas gets its non Spinward March data from. So I guess cannon wise Traveller Map and Atlas are more correct for the Trojan Reaches. They all seem to have the same data for the Spinward Marches so that sector is clear.
Interesting enough I did some random sampling to discover that the three Atlases seem to match on everything but the Trojan Reaches. This is pretty annoying. Does anyone know why? The I.A. doesnt even use Leviathan data
Interesting enough I did some random sampling to discover that the three Atlases seem to match on everything but the Trojan Reaches. This is pretty annoying. Does anyone know why? The I.A. doesnt even use Leviathan data
And thank you very much for the site, I love it
This is one of the things I have never properly understood, the desire to definitively map the entire Imperium. Why on earth do people want a set in concrete canon UWP for every world in the Imperium? I'd like to see at least one Imperial sector ring fenced as a referees preserve. You've got the dot map and starport already from AotI. Why not put one aside (Daibei would be good) and leave it as is like Foreven and have something rimward to allow Imperial/Solomani rivalry (Hinterworlds would have been ideal, but MT put paid to that; Leonidae would do though.)
Because it does no harm except when people's mistaken beliefs make it so and may do some good. Those who don't want to use a particular UWP are free to change it; those who like to keep their TU compatible with a lot of other peoples' TUs (and thus able to use the stuff other people produce for the same UWP without too much effort) can stick to the UWP and no harm done to the ones that don't want it in the first place.
All that would accomplish would be to assure that no one got any help with developing that sector instead of just the people who didn't like the official version. A defite lose/lose (well, no win) solution.
Hans
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Charted space is MORE than big enough for a shared universe (living Trav if you like) without losing anything by setting aside a couple of corners not to be developed officially.
People are a funny lot, don't like seeing what they've worked out overwritten by something published later on. Yes it is illogical and nothing stops you ignoring what is published as you point out, but that's people for you. Its the whole point in having a refs preserve in the first place. And like I said, charted space is more than big enough to stand it. You may not see a "win", I fail to see a "loss."
As long as it's far far away from any sector I'm working on I don't actually mind. Foreven, right next to the Spinward Marches, annoyed me and continues to annoy me to this very day.
There's a simple solution to that. Develop your own Traveller Universe. If you set your campaign in a shared universe, I feel that you should be prepared for the consequences.
It's been tried and it didn't work well. Sectors influence neighboring sectors, and being unable to establish any facts about systems just a few parsecs away is constraining. When I wrote up the Darrians for GT:Humanity I was forced to ignore any sort of historical interaction with places closer to Darrian than the Imperium was to them. Annoying.
As I said, I don't really mind a ref's preserve as long as it's not near my patch (How about Theta Borealis Sector? :devil
, but I feel sorry for the refs who want to put their campaigns near it. Or who already did put their campaigns IN it.Hans
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A frontier sector on the fringes of colonized space. Not really much more of a problem than dealing with variable ZS borders, Vland shifting orbit, K'kree conducting genetic modifications on themselves
I regularly do, or at least use the faraway sector approach. But that is harder for the beginning umpire. To me it seems a little churlish not to allow beginner umpires an area where they can create their own campaign basis and "feed off" established canon.
It's been tried and it didn't work well. Sectors influence neighboring sectors, and being unable to establish any facts about systems just a few parsecs away is constraining. When I wrote up the Darrians for GT:Humanity I was forced to ignore any sort of historical interaction with places closer to Darrian than the Imperium was to them. Annoying.
As I said, I don't really mind a ref's preserve as long as it's not near my patch (How about Theta Borealis Sector? :devil
Hans
If your game is already set IN an umpire's preserve how do you lose anything by having it guaranteed that no published information will contradict what you've developed? And yes it does place a few constraints on what authors can produce, but so does having pre-established canon (in fact far more.) You work with it
Yes Theta Borealis would work, Far Frontiers would be better, Vanguard Reaches or The Beyond (but the paranoia press issue there). But at that end of charted space we have foreven which, while imperfect, works.
Are you saying that Foreven doesn't really annoy me or that I'm being silly to let Foreven annoy me? Because if it's the first, you're wrong and if it's the second, I disagree.A frontier sector on the fringes of colonized space. Not really much more of a problem than dealing with variable ZS borders, Vland shifting orbit, K'kree conducting genetic modifications on themselves
What established canon? You're specifically requesting an area with no established canon, or at least no more than any referee can easily establish for himself in a couple of hours by cutting and pasting from established canon. How does it help a beginning referee in any way to have a scetor with no prior established canon?
Already answered that one, but here you go again: Now I'll never get any material produced by others to help me flesh out my campaign. That's my loss. Sure, I might have the bad luck that something offcial that is published after I've started my campaign will contradict something that I've established, but given the amount of work it takes to develop a subsector, let alone a sector, the odds are good that it will instead fill in holes for me, an eventuality devoutly to be wished for. And as I said before, if I'm unlucky, I can just ignore it. I'll never be any worse off than I will be if my sector gets hit be a no-development zoning law.
Depends on the quality of the pre-established canon. If it's decent it constrains me far less than a hands-off edict, because I can simply use it as is and spend my time elaborating on it or something else that could use development. It it's rotten, I can always try to persuade Marc Miller or his designated henchman to let me retcon it.And yes it does place a few constraints on what authors can produce, but so does having pre-established canon (in fact far more.) You work with it
Hans
LOL would not presume that Foreven doesn't or shouldn't annoy you. I just believe its no bigger issue than the many canon problems authors have to deal with.
As you point out, neighbouring sectors influence one another. Foreven is where it is to allow for interaction between and with both the Zhodani and Imperium. Put it out in the boon docks and you have the faraway sector. Good in someways, but hard and more intimidating for the new umpire.
You Hans are an experienced umpire and author. You are good at "making up stuff" and I'd imagine put a lot of work into your campaign backgrounds. Others are not so good. Most newbies wing it, create a rough draft and fill in as required. Broad strokes creating a rough canvas to work off.
Generating UWP's takes a button push with one of the many sector gen apps around. Use mine and you can work off a dot map. A quick glance over the results with a few tweaks backed by the general established canon from surrounding regions gives more than enough to pick up and start running with. Back some 30 years ago when I started playing (frighting that) its how I did it. Took the Marches and fleshed out what I wanted. Heaps of it got overwritten, annoying at the time in truth (though nowadays I'd simply hit ignore.)
I've got 30 years of creating settings under my belt, I'd imagine you've got something similar. I can have a play area (usually a subsector) in a raw faraway sector up and running in about an hour or two. Sure it isn't "pretty" with scribbled notes here there and everywhere and hastily drawn lines on maps. But its playable and after about four or five sessions its fleshed a lot of itself out.
Most new umpires are not able to do that and need some background to work off. Behind the Claw and Rim of Fire are too detailed for "roll your own" and nobody does thumbnails like the old CT sector books anymore. Actually that would be IMHO better than ref preserves. A couple of thumbnail sectors that won't be taken further that umpires can flesh out as desired.
But having to avoid certain areas is not really any more difficult as an author than having to follow existing canon. When I was writing the Luriani I would have loved to have a Luriani Autonomous District but existing canon says I couldn't. When I was working on the Interstellar Wars, I had to reconcile the absolute statement "the Zira Sirka did not expand past this date" with a dot map that showed they had (my solution even eventually found its way into canon). As an author working with a shared universe you are constrained in many ways. And staying away from area X isn't that different from having to deal with area Y is blarg.
Good, but has some odd gaps like Far Frontiers sector. I like the other one www.travellermap.com better.
As I said, I don't really mind a ref's preserve as long as it's not near my patch (How about Theta Borealis Sector? :devil
Theta Borealis was the sector featured in all the Group One products. The significant race in that area, the Zerp, were referred to as the Jaibok in the HIWG files. (And a lost colony of Zerp settled on Yori in my Landgrab of Yori.)
Group One split off from Judges Guild but held an independant Traveller licence. As far as I'm aware their products were never officially decanonised (more by oversight than intent).
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