Battledress

[Libris]

Now we're talking. Heavy Metal.

Anyways... Ah yes, designing Battledress. Now that I've noticed batteries are ridiculously expensive compared to fusion powerplants (!?) we'll be installing them. Fusion that is.

Here's a query. If you give a trooper a HUD this gives +3 to hit and costs Cr5,000. If this is the case then would a computer add a further +2 if you run Predict on it? If not, the only reason really to carry a computer on battledress is for the nice tactical data and ECM (which is actually darned useful!).

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Libris:
Now we're talking. Heavy Metal.

Anyways... Ah yes, designing Battledress. Now that I've noticed batteries are ridiculously expensive compared to fusion powerplants (!?) we'll be installing them. Fusion that is.

Here's a query. If you give a trooper a HUD this gives +3 to hit and costs Cr5,000. If this is the case then would a computer add a further +2 if you run Predict on it? If not, the only reason really to carry a computer on battledress is for the nice tactical data and ECM (which is actually darned useful!).

You could always follow the standard stacking rule for d20. If the types of the bonuses are different, then they stack.

HUD = Visual Aid Bonus
Predict Software = Computer Assist

They sound different when phrased this way, and look like they can be stacked, but YMMV.

 

[Libris]

Fusion powerplants can be detected by them Neutrino detector thingies. Back to batteries then.

More seriously, I think batteries (despite their cost) are much more appropriate for smaller space critical systems like battledress. My main aim when designing my battledress units was to get volume to 250vl or less to avoid the penalty to armour class. This isn't quite feasible at TL13 but is fairly easy at TL14+. I've also designed a TL8 and TL9 "Power Armour" suits which while not exactly canon are quite feasible but nowhere near as deadly (a TL15 suit will have AC32/AR15, a TL9 suit AC23/AR9)

The only problem I see with my designs is scaling. A TL15 suit of battledress gives the same protection as a TL15 grav tank. I'll need to have a closer look at that.

As for the HUD v's Predict I'm going to assume that they are both Electronic assist and give a one or the other option.

As an slight aside from a GM's point of view I think it is quite important to min/max designs and try and "break" the design system to prevent munchkin players from springing a surprise on you.

As far as vehicle volume and starship volume go I have no problems with this; other than GURPS Vehicles and VDS which are very good and go into mind numbing level of detail (which is A GOOD THING). It's just a game thing.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Libris:
The only problem I see with my designs is scaling. A TL15 suit of battledress gives the same protection as a TL15 grav tank. I'll need to have a closer look at that.

Yes, it's the downside of the vehicle armor system. One Option I've seen is to modify the weapon damage scale. Instead of the T20 rules (e.g. personal = -5 Dice Vehicle = = -10 dice starship), the scale is based upon size (Large = -1 dice, Huge = -2 dice, etc). So the 250vl battledress doesn't get an automatic 5 dice reducing in damage vs personal weapons by the grav tank may get an -6 dice. This would even the armor values more.

 

[Libris]

I was thinking along those lines, using the size modifier. It seems quite elegant. Although your battledress guy is now toast against another FGMP equiped trooper. Letsee... 9d20. Okay, that's -8d for armour, leaving 7. So an FGMP-15 now does 1d20-7. So, maybe not toast but starting to get crispy!

Course, there's is now the question of Stamina damage. I'm going to look at how to reduce it depending on armour. A fail to see how a combat armoured trooper gets killed by an SMG when it is quite plain that none of the rounds penetrated his armour.

 

[justacaveman]

I've noted some of the same problems myself.

I've developed a few house rules to address the problems.

I halve all Stamina damage to targets wearing rigid armor such as Combat Armor.

I put a limit on the maximum AR of a vehicle based on size.

When scoring a Critical Hit on a target that is fully enclosed in armor (Like Tanks etc) I only halve the AR rather than ignoring it. And personal scale weapons can only score a Critical Hit on a size Huge or larger vehicle if the second die roll also falls within the Critical Threat range.

I have revised the scale rules based on the size of the target. And give a damage bonus if the target vehicle is less than Huge.

And when using personal scale Armor Piercing ammo, the AP value is 1/2 vs vehicles, and 1/4 vs ships. Vehicle AP ammo value is doubled vs personal scale armor.


These rules seem to help keep Battle Dress from being as powerful as a Main Battle Tank.

 

[justacaveman]

Note: The damage bonus to less than Huge vehicles only applies to vehicle/ship scale weapons.

That wasn't clear in the previous post, sorry.

 

[mike wightman]

These rules seem to help keep Battle Dress from being as powerful as a Main Battle Tank.

Spoilsport

One of the things I really like about T20 BD is that it IS as powerful as a modern MBT, just like its inspirational model in Starship Troopers.
Of course if you add a minature nuclear damper, meson screen and white globe then it could also mimic one of those nifty battlesuits in EE Smith's Lensmen etc series

 

[justacaveman]

You misunderstand me.

Without these changes, Battle Dress is just as powerful as a Main Battle Tank of the same Tech Level as the Battle Dress.

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry, you are correct, I misunderstood and when I looked at the BattleDress in the book again its AR of 10 does make it feersome indeed! Consider a TL14 version which would have an AR of 14 no problem at all.
Perhaps the solution would be to redesign it smaller (300vl does seem a bit on the large size) with an AR of around 5-ish.

 

[mike wightman]

While trying to design a much smaller version of BattleDress (sorry but 3 m3 is just a bit too big for how I, and most Traveller artwork pictures BattleDress IMHO) I came upon a stumbling block.

Am I correct that in T20 one unit of vehicle volume, or vl for short, is equal to 10 litres or 0.01 cubic metres?

If that is the case then shouldn't a largish human be 10-15vl (100l-150l or 0.1m3-0.15m3)?

The quoted "100vl is about equal to an average human" can not be the human body volume , it must equate to a workstation/driverstation volume which includes seating, controls, headroom, wriggleroom etc.

A possible solution could be to assume the chassis to be around 100 to 150 vl and that the Marine inside "rides" it like a motor bike and thus requires only 11 vl (you may want to allow 15-20 for bigger Marines). This seems reasonable to me since the trooper is meant to be wearing the armour (very little wriggleroom).

I also propose that the AR be limited to a maximum of Str augmentation (I mean the Str bonus to damage). So if you want to be armoured like a tank then you will need a much larger battlesuit.

Next some sort of computer could be installed in order to run ECM, return fire (maybe even auto/evade if the suit is fitted with cruise-control ).

One final proposal is that the AC agility bonus of the armour is limited to the Dex bonus of the wearer.

I think a full Traveller's Aide could be written about BattleDress of different types across the range of TLs.

What do others think?

 

[Anthony]

1 cubic meter is more than some real-world seating, even. A typical airline seat (economy-class) is around 0.6 cubic meters.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
I always assumed that there was no wiggle room, you wore the armour like a second skin and it mimiced any and all movements you did.
The first layer of the suit was nothing but sensors that where linked to the computer that tries to maintaine the at rest status (no pressure on any internal faceing that isn't there at rest), So you cant get a higher dodge rating than the person wearing the suit and the movement stamina is the same as the person wearing it.
You can carry more and you can lock the arms to stop recoil, you get more and better sensors, but it's still only as good as the person driving it. Othwise you have a robot with a passenger.
You can design a safe car but if you put an asshole behind the wheel it not safe anymore.
Bye.

 

[justacaveman]

The problem is that the size/weight values are way off in never never land.

The only real solution I've been able to come up with is to make 1vl = 1 liter (.001 cubic meters). This would make Battle Dress = 300 liters (.3 cubic meters). This is the volume of Battle Dress in T4 BTW.

I'm not sure how this would affect the volumes of larger vehicles such as tanks etc.. I need to check some real world examples (Anyone know the actual volume of an M1 Tank?).

As far as ship displacement tons, If you divide the listed vehicle vl by 3000, you will get the approximate standard dtons for the vehicles as listed. I know this gives an excessively large value, but it does make them match prior data. The excess room can be justifed as wasted space, and access room.

As far as weight goes, I give them 1kg per liter of vehicle. If the vehicle has armor, I add an extra 3kg per liter of armor. Thus the TL13 Battle Dress listed would weight 498kg (Similar to T4).

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
On the weight from volumn problem i use the table in the T20 handbook, cant remember what it's called but it's the one that shows the different sizes and volumns for people and vegicles and ships (size modifier table)?????.
Bye.

 

[justacaveman]

It's the chart on page 148, and it isn't compatible with the design rules.

The design rules on page 223 of the THB says that 1vl = 10 liters (Water weighs 1kg per liter. This is 10 times the given value on page 148.). TA1 and TA6 has 1vl = 5 liters = 1kg (Water weighs 5 times this amount.).

If you use the THB design rules, all vehicles are built like zeppelins. Even the Traveller's Aid vehicles will float in water.

Since I know that a M1 tank won't float, I'm forced to conclude that *Gasp* the rules just might be wrong. And if the rules are wrong, it might be a good idea to fix the problem.

 

[justacaveman]

Also, the design rules seem to assume that armored and unarmored vehicles of equal volume weigh the same amount.

Since this is completely off base , I would have to conclude that this is another error to be fixed.

The game isn't broken, it just needs a few minor repairs.

I'm not sure if 1vl = 1 liter is going to work for vehicles other than Battle Dress, it may have to be 1vl = 2 liters. This value depends on checking real world examples.

If you think 100 liters is too small a volume for a human, try this example: (50) 2-liter soda bottles! I'd say this is enough volume for a fairly large person.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
Isn't it liquid Hydrogen not water for volumn calcs.
Bye

 

[graden1]

Originally posted by LordRhys:
You misunderstand me.

Without these changes, Battle Dress is just as powerful as a Main Battle Tank of the same Tech Level as the Battle Dress.

I would beg to differ on this point. Their armor may be the same, but the tank still has a much larger weapon, more speed, better sensors, and longer range. Which is, of course, as it should be.

DGv2.0

 

[justacaveman]

The displacement volume for starships is calculated for liquid hydrogen. But, we're designing vehicles here. A Main Battle Tank is not going to weigh less than the amount of water it displaces. That doesn't work in real life, and if the vehicle design system doesn't reflect real life examples, then you're playing a fantasy game, not a sci-fi game.

And yes the tank does carry a bigger gun than the guy in Battle Dress. But, the infantryman in Battle Dress shouldn't be as well armored as a Heavy Tank designed at the same Tech Level. The description of Battle Dress on page 209 of the THB states "Battle Dress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor.".

To have a 300vl set of personal armor be as heavily armored as a 30,000vl tank of the same TL, is completely absurd.

TL15 Battle Dress may be better armored than a TL8 M1 tank, but it should not be as well armored as a TL15 Intrepid grav tank.