Bad Scouts?

[far-trader]

And the public, peons, and common citizens have the news reports that arrive by jump-6 passenger liners...

What?

The rules allow PCs with enough money to buy jump-6 ships...

There's J6 Pax Liners? They've either slipped my memory (quite possible, perhaps even deliberately ) or I've never seen them. Can you name the source(s)?

As to the other, it's probably a strictly MTU idea, but no, common civilians don't (normally) have access to top production facilities and technology, such as J5 and J6.

 

[aramis]

There's J6 Pax Liners? They've either slipped my memory (quite possible, perhaps even deliberately ) or I've never seen them. Can you name the source(s)?

The Traveller Adventure. Referees Library Data. And the Type TI vs TJ, externally identical; one's J6. I don't remember the speed on the other one.

The One is a long liner (ISTR J3).The other is a J6, but not for passenger use; it's restricted to nobles and designated couriers.

 

[rancke]

There's J6 Pax Liners? They've either slipped my memory (quite possible, perhaps even deliberately ) or I've never seen them. Can you name the source(s)?

None has ever been mentioned. I gave you the logic behind my claim. Jump-5 has been around for four centuries, jump-6 for one. And there are Vargr worlds around with TLs of 15. IMO it's flat out unreasonable to assume that jump-6 is still a military secret, much less jump-5. Yes, there is canonical text that expressly states that the X-boats are the fastest available means of communication, but there's also evidence that the navy has jump-6 couriers.

Even if jump-6 was a military secret, there are plenty of worlds with TL15, and each and every government of those worlds will have their own jump-6 couriers (wouldn't you?). Which means that it's absurd to believe the canonical story about the secret of Strephon's death being kept until the news arrived by X-boat. There are just too many people who'd know the secret for it not to leak.

As to the other, it's probably a strictly MTU idea, but no, common civilians don't (normally) have access to top production facilities and technology, such as J5 and J6.

What about Tukera and the other megacorporations? Wouldn't they have access to J5 and J6 ships? What about sector-wide companies? Tukera is in the business of moving passengers. So are several other megacorporations. So are several sector-wide companies per sector.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

None has ever been mentioned. I gave you the logic behind my claim. Jump-5 has been around for four centuries, jump-6 for one. And there are Vargr worlds around with TLs of 15. IMO it's flat out unreasonable to assume that jump-6 is still a military secret, much less jump-5. Yes, there is canonical text that expressly states that the X-boats are the fastest available means of communication, but there's also evidence that the navy has jump-6 couriers.

First off thanks for the replies aramis and Hans.

OK, so no memory reset required (at least nothing major) On to the questions...

Not a military secret. Just a military/Imperial governing prerogative(?). They require J5 and J6, limiting the yards available to produce and maintain that level of response, so civilian desires go wanting.

I don't see that as so far a leap.

I've long long ago simplified/codified it for MTU. The Imperial Government (including IN, IISS, High Nobles, and MegaCorps) have exclusive access to TL15 shipyards. Some paramilitary forces (Imperial Incorporated Mercenaries) have access to TL14 and lesser shipyards. Civilians (primarily Merchants) are left to work with the TL12 and lesser shipyards. I picked the split based on Jump, Power, and Weapons mostly.

Certainly governments of individual worlds may very well build up to J6. But to what purpose? And wouldn't the Imperial Military contracts be much more lucrative? What I'm saying is what world government needs J6?

Would I as a world government want some private fleet of J6 couriers just to keep up on the latest news from Capital? No. Why would I? I can't think of a good reason for the expense.

Why would you in such a position?

I see no problem with keeping the new of the death restricted to the IN and High Nobles.

Some (even all) MegaCorps having J6 couriers I have no problem with. Smaller lines I don't see having or needing it. Any line is going to built on less than J5 imo. I thought your own (or was it someone else) calculations showed the economics of it? Or (entirely possible) I misunderstood them.

 

[Spinward Scout]

The Traveller Adventure. Referees Library Data. And the Type TI vs TJ, externally identical; one's J6. I don't remember the speed on the other one.

The One is a long liner (ISTR J3).The other is a J6, but not for passenger use; it's restricted to nobles and designated couriers.

The other source is the Rebellion Sourcebook for MT. Imperiallines Frontier Transports. Most of the ships are J-2, the J-6 ships are identical on the outside, just their interior fittings are different.

 

[rancke]

Not a military secret. Just a military/Imperial governing prerogative(?). They require J5 and J6, limiting the yards available to produce and maintain that level of response, so civilian desires go wanting.

How exactly would you go about doing that? Put in priority orders every time a shipyard expanded its capacity? That'd effectively be a government employment program funded by the Imperium. Not practical.

If someone wants a shipyard to build a ship for them and is willing to pay, why shouldn't the shipyard accept the order? The only way the Imperium would have of doing that would be by Imperial edict. Talk about interference with the affairs of member worlds!

I've long long ago simplified/codified it for MTU. The Imperial Government (including IN, IISS, High Nobles, and MegaCorps) have exclusive access to TL15 shipyards.

Even the ones on Vargr worlds in the Extents?

Certainly governments of individual worlds may very well build up to J6. But to what purpose? And wouldn't the Imperial Military contracts be much more lucrative? What I'm saying is what world government needs J6?

To keep in touch with its ambassador on Capital, for example.

Would I as a world government want some private fleet of J6 couriers just to keep up on the latest news from Capital? No. Why would I? I can't think of a good reason for the expense.

It's not a big expense compared to the naval budget of a high-population world. One common set-up would be jump-6 couriers belonging to the system navy.

I see no problem with keeping the new of the death restricted to the IN and High Nobles.

That's 34 subsector dukes and as many fleet admirals, plus their staffs. You may think it's remotely possible that none of them would leak that kind of news. I don't.

Some (even all) MegaCorps having J6 couriers I have no problem with.

That's another 442 regional managers.

Smaller lines I don't see having or needing it. Any line is going to built on less than J5 imo. I thought your own (or was it someone else) calculations showed the economics of it? Or (entirely possible) I misunderstood them.

Jump-5 is more expensive than jump-1, 2, 3, and 4. Jump-6 is even more expensive. IIRC jump-6 costs four times as much as jump-3. But it gets there twice as fast. The percentage of people who would want to pay that sort of money would be very small. But a very small percentage of billions of people can make for a goodly number in absolute terms. And it only needs enough potential passengers to keep a few small passenger liners in the black. News only need one avenue to get through.


Hans

 

[Chaos]

I think there would be a lot of money to be made if you can transport business-relevant information at J6 - so that you and your subscribers know it before anyone else.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Spy Club.

For your Information:

The Rules of Spy Club.

1. There is no Spy Club!
2. There is NO Spy Club!
3. No Comment.
   
   And the last and most important rule:
   
   
4. We are not spies, we are Intelligence Officers, the enemy's beings are spies.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I think there would be a lot of money to be made if you can transport business-relevant information at J6 - so that you and your subscribers know it before anyone else.

Possibly. OTOH, how many airlines or courier firms use supersonic aircraft?

 

[rancke]

Possibly. OTOH, how many airlines or courier firms use supersonic aircraft?

The situations are not analogous. How many FLT communication devices do you know of in the OTU?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Possibly. OTOH, how many airlines or courier firms use supersonic aircraft?

The situations are not analogous. How many FLT communication devices do you know of in the OTU?


Hans

Actually, I think they are close enough for comparison...

Most courier companies and civil passenger aviation use aircraft topping out at 600Kts. top civil aircraft speed has been about 1500kts. Top known speed is about 2400kts. The Concorde was losing money, since the cost of transit was so high that it couldn't keep passengers sufficient to pay maintenance. It cost 5 times as much for 1/5 the flight time. The courier companies all use standard passenger aircraft, but superior handling and reduced downtime.

 

[samuelvss]

IIRC jump-6 costs four times as much as jump-3. But it gets there twice as fast. The percentage of people who would want to pay that sort of money would be very small. But a very small percentage of billions of people can make for a goodly number in absolute terms. And it only needs enough potential passengers to keep a few small passenger liners in the black. News only need one avenue to get through.


Hans

I would agree that there will likely be J6 commercial assets around, unless the 3I forbids them (which is quite possible!). I would say that the presence of J6 going every few days on some routes (andd it would surely be only some) would not trump J4 set to go essentially instantly. The IN would maintain J6 couriers in such a posture, but those would be for high level stuff. (e.g.: Normal run is 2x a week. Only certain priority of packages go sooner, determined by predetermined protocols. Maintaining this is extremely expensive, but critical for military purposes.)

I would say therefore, that assuming J6 civilian liners/couriers are around, there would still not be an advantage for general news:

"The weekly sales report is attached. By the way, there was a Peter Stein asking about you this morning. Said he knew you from your service in the IN, but declined to leave a message or contact number."

 

[Chaos]

Possibly. OTOH, how many airlines or courier firms use supersonic aircraft?

How many would use them, if delivering letters was the fastest known form of communication?

Actually, I´d go further and say that faster forms of communication than delivering letters exist only because people understand the usefulness of getting information from A to B in the shortest possible time.

 

[rancke]

I would say that the presence of J6 going every few days on some routes (andd it would surely be only some) would not trump J4 set to go essentially instantly.

Canonical description of the X-boat network have boats jumping every 6 hours on the most important routes.

One jump-6 every week will usually be slower than a jump-4 every six hours for distances up to 4 parsecs. For distance of 5 or 6 parsecs, the jump-6 will win most of the time. For 7 and 8 parsecs, the jump-4 will win almost all the time. For anything over 8 parsecs, the jump-6 will win, and the longer the distance, the more it will win by. Over distances of several sectors, a jump-6 every month will win.

The IN would maintain J6 couriers in such a posture, but those would be for high level stuff. (e.g.: Normal run is 2x a week. Only certain priority of packages go sooner, determined by predetermined protocols. Maintaining this is extremely expensive, but critical for military purposes.)

I don't quite see why the IN shouldn't maintain a much tighter shedule, but no matter. Any jump-6 connection will beat even the most efficient jump-4 connection as long as the distance is more than a subsector or so. And according to canon, the X-boats are very far from being as efficient as possible. Canon says the X-boats averages 2.6 parsecs per week...


Hans

 

[Mithras]

It was during the border crisis of 360s I believe, when imperial border scouts at Hadrian's Wall turned against the empire, and although they scouted beyond the border and reported back, they made deals with Picts and Scotts and let them in at an opportune moment, and the entire province was ovrrun and almost annihalated. The arcani I believe they were called.

 

[PathfinderAP]

For your Information:

The Rules of Spy Club.

1. There is no Spy Club!
2. There is NO Spy Club!
3. No Comment.
   
   And the last and most important rule:
   
   
4. We are not spies, we are Intelligence Officers, the enemy's beings are spies.

No, The Real Rules of Spy Club are.

1. .
2. .
3. .
4. .
5. .
6. .
7. .
8. .
9. a.
10. b.

And yes they are involed in Intelligence, they even have a School for it in CT,
-You didn't seen me, I was never here understand?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Hey, now wait a minute..

My book says we don't tell them the "real" rules, and are sure, you look like this dude...

 

[Putraack]

Tha IISS survey team counting asteroids could just be doing that, counting asteroids. Or they could be intercepting all your communications and cracking your encryption codes with the best that TL15+ technology has to offer, or counting ships visiting your starport, or watching a distant Kuiper belt object with their passive array, or completely unaware that one of their crew members is a clandestine courier who always visits a certain joygirl during liberty and receives a data package containing information developed by the other Imperial agents on your world.

Excuse me for coming late to this thread, but this message reminded me of my wife's favorite 2300AD PC. She was a smuggler and pilot, formerly of some freight/passenger line, but had started her career on an exploration mission.

 

[jatay3]

As in sinister, rather than prone to getting lost -

I'm currently reading Norman Davies's big fat history of Europe. I was struck by this from his description of the Roman empire under Constantine:

"A far-flung network of imperial messengers, who acted as official spies, kept potential opponents in fear."

The more I think about it, the more scope I see for the Scouts to assert themselves as a power in the Imperium. If the Scouts are reporting to the Emperor that Archduke X is engaged in some conspiracy, who can credibly contradict them?

The way I have it the IISS as such tends to keep it's hands clean and the Emperor's dirty business is done by other agencies. There are sound reasons for that. It encourages the recruitment of good personal and cultivates esprit de corps(a sinister secret police would be always using each other as set-ups, which causes bad morale) . It also makes good propaganda to have an agency that has a lot of respect.

I use them as worthy opponents rather then heroes. This fits with my story which is a crossover free trader/migration saga. Because of poliitical implications the Imperium is keeping an eye on the group my Big Darned Heroes are helping, but there is nothing personal and the local chief of station at my Intrepid Captain's home port often drops by to share coffee and stories in non-business(well you never no what he will consider non-business and what he will consider "cultivation"). This works because the Imperium is more like a referee then the primary bad guy.

I have had several bad guys. The Tukera's were common on the list. But the Imperium as such isn't.

Because of this the IISS are often opponents, but they are never an Agency of Evilness.

 

[Tellon]

in MTU, the scouts are a very tiny group of explorers -- but are an effective group of spies, messengers, smugglers, black-market traders -- alll rolled into 1

thus, a scout might be a double agent for 2 minor planetary governments, and feeding the information to a 3rd government -- who holds the mortagage on his ship. While he deals with a black-market trade in psionic drugs under the noses of all 3 governments he supposedly helps ...

scouts are used by criminal families, governments, corporations and a host of other groups to do special tasks that adventurers often do too -- So while a scout might very well be investigating a meteorite crash upon a planet -- his government actually has him there to spy on the plent and tests it's defenses/security measures.