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Auto-Rifles at TL7+?

Golan2072

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Historically, the so-called "Auto-Rifles", in the strict sence of the word, were superceded by the lighter and cheaper Assault Rifles during early-to-mid TL7. However, I think that the stats given for the "Auto-Rifle" in LBB1 could fit the lighter, Assault-Rifle-derived, rifle-caliber LMGs such as the RPK, RPK-74 and the AUG/Hbar.

What do you think?

EDIT: I was also thinking about using these stats for heavy, high-caliber Assault Rifles such as the Galil AR 7.62mm variant.
 
I think you're thinking of the Thompson submachine gun, aka the Tommy gun, as the weapon of gangsters, and feds, of the era. Both came out about the same time though, right around 1917-8 or so.

I'm not sure the BAR was the first but it was among the first.
 
According to google the Italian Cei-Rigotti rifle was the first.

Oh, and from wikipedia:
Clyde Barrow of Bonnie and Clyde fame was known to prefer the use of a shortened BAR (stolen from National Guard armories) during his spree in the 1930s, rather than the stereotypical Thompson submachine gun.
I remembered it from the film, I just wondered if it was Hollywood invention or not.
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Historically, the so-called "Auto-Rifles", in the strict sence of the word, were superceded by the lighter and cheaper Assault Rifles during early-to-mid TL7. However, I think that the stats given for the "Auto-Rifle" in LBB1 could fit the lighter, Assault-Rifle-derived, rifle-caliber LMGs such as the RPK, RPK-74 and the AUG/Hbar.

What do you think?
Looking at the weapons matrices I think I'd agree with you.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:


...Oh, and from wikipedia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Clyde Barrow of Bonnie and Clyde fame was known to prefer the use of a shortened BAR (stolen from National Guard armories) during his spree in the 1930s, rather than the stereotypical Thompson submachine gun.
I remembered it from the film, I just wondered if it was Hollywood invention or not. </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting, I just figured it was Hollywood


OK, learned something new today. RECESS! :D
 
I saw a picture of a shortened BAR. Stock was chopped and the barrel sawed off. It had a shoulder strap attached to the shortened stock so you could carry it under your topcoat.

It gets my vote for the first assault rifle. An automatic .03-06 will take care of most of your problems.
scat04.jpg
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Historically, the so-called "Auto-Rifles", in the strict sence of the word, were superceded by the lighter and cheaper Assault Rifles during early-to-mid TL7.
You could actually argue that "Battle Rifles" like the M-14, G3, and FN FAL are also autorifles.

In more modern terms, I think you could use any of the loony "Light Support Weapons" that were the big craze during the 1980s as autorifles as well (thank goodness that craze went away - talk about unsound military principle and everyone went to proper SAWs and GPMGs again). I think there was the L85 LSW and the AUG LSW and a few others were announced. I think the RPK-74 was the only one put into production and issued, but don't quote me on that (and even then the Russians use a drum feed for the RPK-74 now instead of a clip feed - it's a rare blunder for Russians who are usually pretty savvy about their small arms - though it still doesn't overcome the overheating issues of a light weapon).

Ultimately, the auto-rifle in strict Traveller is is based on a class of weapons that are something of a White Elephant as far as I'm concerned. So I usually model them on the German FG-42 (the ultimate White Elephant rifle, imo) - too unwieldy, expensive, and finicky to be a rifle but too light and lacking the capacity to be a machinegun and ultimately inferior to both.

It's really the ideal weapon for player-characters: They need to try and balance maximum firepower used by skilled operators in a very small unit so can use strange mish-mash weapons.

---
(A small rant)

There's no reason to think every society is going to follow this model of weapons development, even other human ones. In fact, one can make an arguement that a Vilani-descended technological system would never actually move to assault rifles.

The modern assault rifle's existence is essentially justified by "studies" many of which were on WW2: Like most firefights occured at ranges vastly shorter than ranges of the rifles being used at time, rifle cartridges of the time were overkill against humans, carrying smaller, lighter bullets would allow a soldier to carry more ammunition in his load, and so on.

We're currently at the tail-end of an "sub-caliber" craze that's gone on since like the 1950s. Most armies are shooting what are essentially overpowered .22 rifles at each other. My personal opinion is that military rifles will return to firing larger and heavier bullets in the upcoming decades as this mania wears off.
 
Ah the LSW, the Rolls Royce of support weapons. Sheer class, design and engineering brilliance. And absolutely-F***ing-useless as a support weapon but brilliant as a light sniper.

Why on earth heavy large calibre bullets would come backmin fashion is beyond me. The principle of modern warfare relies on one simple expression; winning the firefight. That means the most rounds in the shortest time with the greatest accuracy. Your right, studies show that firefights in WW2 and since occur at sub 300m ranges. So yes, more rounds, lighter cartridge, faster rate of fire means a greater chance of winning the firefight.

When we go back to lining up in vans at opposite ends of a 500m field then mabye we'll see the fashion for a .40cal infantry weapon.
file_21.gif
 
Originally posted by epicenter00:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Historically, the so-called "Auto-Rifles", in the strict sence of the word, were superceded by the lighter and cheaper Assault Rifles during early-to-mid TL7.
You could actually argue that "Battle Rifles" like the M-14, G3, and FN FAL are also autorifles.</font>[/QUOTE]
According to LBB1, the "Auto-Rifle" was actually the equivalent of the FN-FAL or M-14 IIRC; the Galil AR 7.62mm variant would probably fit the stats as well rather than an assault rifle, both in size/weight and round; the SAR version would be the Assault Rifle, and the MAR variant would be a very small assault rifle.
 
Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
I saw a picture of a shortened BAR. Stock was chopped and the barrel sawed off. It had a shoulder strap attached to the shortened stock so you could carry it under your topcoat.

It gets my vote for the first assault rifle. An automatic .03-06 will take care of most of your problems.
Technically, an assault rifle fires an intermediate cartridge (between a pistol and a rifle). The BAR fires a full power cartridge and would nowadays be considered a very heavy battle rifle. Since the 7.92x33mm is probably the first intermediate cartridge, the MP-43/StG44 still gets the nod as the first true assault rifle.
 
Originally posted by epicenter00:
(A small rant)

There's no reason to think every society is going to follow this model of weapons development, even other human ones. In fact, one can make an arguement that a Vilani-descended technological system would never actually move to assault rifles.

The modern assault rifle's existence is essentially justified by "studies" many of which were on WW2: Like most firefights occured at ranges vastly shorter than ranges of the rifles being used at time, rifle cartridges of the time were overkill against humans, carrying smaller, lighter bullets would allow a soldier to carry more ammunition in his load, and so on.

We're currently at the tail-end of an "sub-caliber" craze that's gone on since like the 1950s. Most armies are shooting what are essentially overpowered .22 rifles at each other. My personal opinion is that military rifles will return to firing larger and heavier bullets in the upcoming decades as this mania wears off.
The primary study you are referring to was published by Johns-Hopkins University by Norman Hitchman under the title Operational requirements for an infantry hand weapon. This was an outgrowth of the ALCLAD body armor study and involved over a million casualty reports collected from both world wars and the Korean conflict. It is the only scientific statistical study of how wounds are accruded of this size ever done. interestingly, the concusions it produced confirmed the conscusions reached by the British in WWII and the Germans after WWI.

Studies of later wars, including Vietnam, the Arab Isaeli wars and even reports from Iraq continue to confirm the validity of the Hitchman study, even though it is in direct contradition with deeply held pet theories of the shooting community.

The fact of the matter is that 90% of all smallarms fire occurs at less than 300 meters, 70% occurs at 100meters or less and that small arms fire effectiveness is virtually zero at 500 meters.

Unfortuantely, the people who downplay the Hitchman report usually know nothing about it. They don't like it because it conflitcs with their notions about accurate long range rifle fire. The ACR studies of the 1980s showed that Hitchman was dead on - much to the dismay of advocates of precision rifle fire.

The one element that will have a profound impaact on future rifles is the developement of new body armor. The currently issued Interceptor armor is capaable of defeating al currently issued small arms ammunition - including the old battle rifle catridges like .30-06 and .308 even using armor piercing ammunition.

Here are some relavant quotes about the Hitchman study that I've posted before"

The assumption of long range performance is based on what I call the "Rifle Range Mentality".  The fact of the matter is that studies have consistently shown that the infantryman is not able to engage target over about 300 meters, regardless of how accurate the weapons is  (note that this is infantry combat, as opposed to sniping).

The whole rationale of the assault rifle is built around this fact.  The reality is that most rifle fire occurs at 100 meters or less.  I've posted more detailed explanations of this on this list before.  Those conclusions (and other more interesting ones) are drawn from Hitchman's "Operational Requirements for an Infantry Hand Weapon".  Hitchman based his analysis on the ALCLAD study.

During the Korean war, as study on the effectiveness of body armor was commissioned and was later known as ALCLAD (sorry, I don't know what that stands for).  On of the factors that became apparent during ALCLAD was that there had never been a detailed analysis of how hits are incurred in combat. Careful analysis was made of all casualty reports from WWII and Korea (data from Vietnam and the Arab-Israeli conflicts was later added and proved the validity of the model.

Hitchman and the ORO made use of this data for their report .  Many of their conclusions were  controversial, but to date no one has been able to dispute them scientifically. Here are some of the relevant quotes.  As the 'Fireside Theater' said, everything you know is wrong.

Quoting hitchman (and with my own comments):

"Rifle fire and its effects were deficient in some important military respects...in combat, hits from bullets are incurred by the body at random:..the same as for fragment missiles..which are not 'aimed'...Exposure was the chief factor...aimed or directed fire does not influence the manner in which hits are sustained...[Despite] evidence of prodigious rifle ammunition expenditure per hit,..the comparison of hits from bullets with those of fragments shows that the rifle bullet is not actually better directed towards vulnerable parts of the body"

If time and degree of exposure was the chief factor in whether a hit was obtained, what was the point of long range shooting?  Further, analysis of actual combat in showed that 90% of all rifle fire occured at 300 yards or less and that 70% occurs at 100 yards or less.  Interveneing terrain, camouflage and an inability to adequately identify targets were cited. Indeed, the effectiveness of rifle fire drops rapidly to zero at ranges greater than 300 yards.

Hitchman continues:

"It is interesting..that at all common ranges weapons errors are without significance in the man-weapon system...the dispersion of the weapon could be more than double without materially affecting the probability of hitting the target...weapons-design standards which seek perfection by making the rifle more accurate (approach zero dispersion)..are not supported by this analysis as genuine military requirements.  Errors in aiming have been found to be the greatest single factor contributing to the lack of effectiveness of the man-rifle system...[in combat] men who are graded..as expert riflemen do not perform satisfactorily at common battle ranges."

"Either a simultaneous [salvo], or a high cyclic rate burst, with the number of rounds per burst automatically set rather than be dependant on the trigger release.  In the (single barrel burst) design, controlled nutation [nutate: to nod or droop] of the rifle muzzle would provide the desired shot dispersion or pattern; in the..(salvo), the scatter would be obtained and controlled by multiple barrels, a mother-daughter type of projectile, or projection of missiles in the manner of a shotgun."
While the original Hitchman report is virtually impossible to obtain, significant portions have been reproduced in other scholarly work on the subject. Ezell covered this in detail in The Great Rifle Controversy. Other recommended works covering the material are SPIW: the deadliest weapon that never was and The Black Rifle among others.
 
Corejob, how would you say that study holds up when there is a disparity between combatants? Say, in the Iraqi theater? In many ways, the Western forces are significantly better trained than the "insurgents", and are using different tactics. Do you think the fact that the "insurgents" can "pray & spray", but the Western troops have the discipline to coordinate and direct their fire makes a difference to the study you mention?

(BTW, I know you mentioned Vietnam as upholding the study, but I think the disparity is different in this case. Feel free to argue that point, of course....)
 
The ranges given for engagements with small-arms are probably no different in Iraq than elsewhere (ranges may be different in Afghanistan). A lot of the accuracy issues with aimed fire are physiological limits on human performance, related to adrenaline and very limited time to aim and make decisions.

To get appreciably non-random hits on a human at 100 yards, you need to be accurate within about 20 minutes of arc -- that will produce a shot pattern about 3' across, which will at least show more hits to the upper torso than to the lower torso.

To use a topical example, a light shotgun used for bird hunting might have a spread of 30" at 30 yards, which is approximately 100 minutes of arc wide, or accurate within 50 yards. Despite that, even skilled hunters routinely miss targets with shotguns.
 
It's all very true regarding the range that firefights occur at. I don't dispute that.

So why do I think weapon calibers will start to increase again? I know there's a certain dissatisfaction in the military community even now about the performance of the 5.56mm round even inside of "effective" and "average" fightfight range. It's not really about accuracy in this case, it's about the performance of the rounds being used within that range.
 
Interestingly, the 'disatisfaction' you refer to mostly comes from troops who have not been in engagements. Troops in firefights report that a torso hit with the 5.56 are effective. The main complaint with the 5.56 is its inability to penetrate light cover - a definite problem.

BTW, after action studies of casualties in Vietnam showed that the 5.56x45mm was 11% more lethal than the 7.62x51mm.

This study, though a few years old, is enlightening about what the troops are really experiencing

http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

Of note:

Issue # 3 Lethality

Discussion: There have been many engagements with the M855 spanning ranges from 10 feet to 250 meters against soft targets (non-armored individuals) during OIF. Observations from the field cover many different responses from “I shot him in the gut and he ran away”, “I had to put multiple rounds in him to stop him”, to “I shot him in the chest and he went down” and “I shot him in the head and he dropped on the spot”. There are many different views on the lethality of this round ranging from the need for a heavier bullet (the need for more stopping power), to “We have no complaints with the M855 ammunition. It is satisfying the operational need.” One brigade of soldiers interviewed made a very interesting statement concerning the lethality of the M855. Their focus groups indicated that based on proper target acquisition with the improved M68 (CCO), shot placement, basic rifle marksmanship, and firing controlled pairs they were very satisfied with the round’s performance/terminal effects.
 
I'm not convinced that the grumbling is anywhere near the level required to actually get anything to change, and if something did change, the easiest change would probably be redesigned 5.56 ammo (as I understand it, the problem is that when fired from a 14.5" barrel, M855 isn't moving fast enough to fragment properly. Simply switching back to M193 would probably fix that).

In the long run, body armor may force a more dramatic change, but it's hard to guess exactly what the change will be. It could wind up being even lighter ammo with super-fast burst capabilities.
 
Any report of how the redesigned M-14 (M-21 now) is working out? It is a 7.62 designated marksman rifle(?). I would be curious of how the two would stand up on a evaluation under that same operating conditions.
 
Originally posted by Corejob:
Interestingly, the 'disatisfaction' you refer to mostly comes from troops who have not been in engagements.
Tod,

Sadly, they can make study after study and you and I can post them over and over and people still won't believe them. ;) Anecdotes trump facts, especially among firearms enthusiasts.

I hang out at an weapons board and one of the regulars is an honest-to-god arms maker, gun tester, and machinist who has shot more different types with more different loads than most people have had hot breakfasts. They don't/won't even believe him, especially concerning the 'real' reason for the XM-8 decision.

Last year I posted an FBI report debunking the hoary old myth of 'stopping power' in pistols. You'd have thought I was proposing mandatory infanticide from the responses that post garnered.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

Sadly, they can make study after study and you and I can post them over and over and people still won't believe them. ;) Anecdotes trump facts, especially among firearms enthusiasts.
I shied away from using the term "stopping power" because of that, Bill. Because somebody would have this burning need to bring up the old .45 ACP is better than 9mm Parabellum/Luger arguement from day one.(1)

While I don't think any of the odd so-called "SOCOM" larger caliber rounds are going to become popular anytime soon, I do still think that there may be an eventual revisioning of calibers because of it. After all, people are inherently rationalizing beings as opposed to rational beings and statistics and studies don't lie - until the numbers suggest something that someone doesn't like. So there will be a change with bullets soon-ish if only to satisifying the subjective tastes of people.

I personally think it'll go to larger caliber rounds (not necessarily back to full older rifle cartridges but heavier bullets to be sure) as "opposing forces" aren't wearing body armor these days. It might even be a movement back to the older M193 as Anthony suggests. And in the end, even the 'ammo revisioning' thing is just a craze...


1. That person might even be me. But I'll keep it circumspect. Oddly, I'm on the side of larger bullets or at least bullets better designed to utilize the "carbine craze" Western militaries are going through right now (from M-16 to M4 to SCAR-L) but I'm on the side of the 9mm against the .45 ACP so I've read a number of studies on the whole concept of "stopping power." As far as I can tell "stopping power" is a concept with nebulous thresholds - similar to "felt recoil" of weapons. It varies from person to person or target to target.
 
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