Auto loaders and magazines for turrets

[JAFARR]

With respect to a thread in the fleet forum where auto loaders are mentioned, I decided to detail that system. http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=18646

I look at this as a storage and handling system for missiles and sand cannisters. My concept of the system is a chain mounted conveyor consisting of a set of clamps that clasp the outside of the unit being handled. Think of like this '()'. The single quote marks are actually extensions near the top of the parenthesis marks and would protrude above the top of the parenthesis marks, allowing attachment of the operating mechanism. The parenthesis marks pivot at an attachment point at this end. One set of clamps clamps about 10 cm from each end of the item being being handled. I would assume that is enough difference between missiles and cannisters that missile clamps will not engage cannisters and vice versa. As the feeding mechanism is a chain (or some similar mechanism) which follows a track inside a pipe, making the pipe some what larger than actually necessary and making turns gradually will even allow for turns in the direction of you can move the item.

Additional assumptions: (1) As missiles and cannisters actually leave the ship's atmosphere and travel into space, there is already some method for making that transition in place. (Maybe the magazine and the turret(s) are evacuated prior to use). (2) There is some provision to make a connection to the firing circuitry on the exterior of the housing so some method of properly aligning the missile/cannister in it's firing position already exists. (3) The loader has an access point (or points) where the munitions are loaded into the system and the machinery then does all the handling including placing into storage from that point onward.

Using this system, multiple turrets could conceivably be fed from the same magazine. I am going to assume a limit of 4 turrets per magazine unless someone can give a reasonable argument for another limit.

Specs for CT: Cost 10 KCr. Power is supplied by the turret. Use in magazine provides storage space for 100 missiles/cannisters per ton of magazine. (justification - MT Referee's Manual page 74 states 100 ton bay can store 13500 missiles or 135 per ton. I reduced this to 100 to allow for the loader mechanism.) I would futher reduce that to 80 if feeding 3 or 4 turrets from the same magazine due to the additional equipment. Also I set the minimum magazine size to 1/2 ton. (50 or 40 missiles).

Additional spects for MT: Weight 0.1 and power 0.1 EP

 

[JAFARR]

Anyone have any comments? If I don't hear anything in the next 48 hours, I'll assume you like this the way it is written it.

 

[Maccat]

There were missile magazines my understanding in High Guard 1st edition, and someone has done up LBB2 expanded or somesuch for them. There's a great difference in storage depending on if you use 50cm dia. x 1m l. /14m3 or 50kg/1000kg (ton) 20x!
LBB2, SS3 Missiles, ea. launcher holds 3 rounds, there is room for 12 additional in a turret. Reloading takes one LBB2 turn per launcher, during which the gunner is unable to fire. Single Missile Launcher 15 rounds, 15 volleys before turret exhausted. Dual, 18 rounds, 9 volley. Triple 21 rounds, 7 volley. After that you need to get em from cargo! So say one full time loader per triple missile turret?
Personally i always treated an autoloader as a non-mobile robot (Book 8!) "gunner crewman", say with 50 strength, gunnery (handling them explosives, assembling missiles, setting fuses etc) and cargo handling (...). This would have the gunner need Computer or Robot Handling (Comp-1) to use it. Arming missile equipped fighters/boats, though, i would think need people.
IMTU i use the standard missile as a civilian/light missile, a 150kg military/medium missile (one triple launcher equiv) and then a 900kg (call it a ton) "military" missile (~torpedo), as thats 18x standard missiles, a HG FF5, which with even computers is the minimum to be able to hit an Ag6 fighter, also figuring it's volleys of these the missile bays use. Also, regarding military use only Imperium (or Law Level 3 or less) have nukes... Is autoloading nuclear warheads really a benefit? What if a 10MT nuclear warhead gets jammed in the feed mechanism (eek!). Then again, maybe missile bays advantage is that they have autoloaders, while turrets don't?

 

[far-trader]

Anyone have any comments? If I don't hear anything in the next 48 hours, I'll assume you like this the way it is written it.

A bold assumption friend :smirk:

Ahem, coming to this late, but not too late I trust.

MT is full of... stars? The numbers they use are so far out to lunch in my opinion.

CT (Book 2) says the each launcher holds 3 ready items (missile or sand cannister). A triple turret will have 9 ready items. We also know that each item is 50kg and that CT treats KG and dtons as equal. So each launcher has an attached magazine of 150KG capacity taking up 0.15dtons of the turret volume. A triple turret gives over 0.45dtons of it's volume to integral magazines. In MTU that leaves about 0.05dtons for the actual launcher, and 0.5dtons for the gunner couch. That makes up the 1.0dton of turret control for a triple launcher.

So, to design a magazine we first look at the basic storage for the items of 50KG each, which includs (imo) the handling container for ease of loading as well as safe storage and handling.

A simple 1dton cargo container can hold 20 items, and they will require manual reloading in the turret magazines.

Since the actual turret magazines are in 3s the simple way to handle an autoloader is to make it in 3s as well. My 1dton autoloader therefore gives up a small bit of dtons for the loading mechanics and holds 18 items. As long as the autoloader has stock the turret can fire uninterrupted. Cost is insignificant, the only requirement is that it be adjacent to the turret and designate at the same time the hardpoint is. Size may be larger but not smaller than 1dton.

 

[far-trader]

Scaling the above up to Bay weapon sizes I presume a rough extrapolation of the USP factor.

A 100ton bay is about equal to 42 launchers so it has an inherent magazine capacity of 126 standard missiles* and a round of fire would use 42 standard missiles. Cargo can be used to store missiles at the same 20 per dton as above. And an autoloader has to be a minimum of 21dtons and holds 378 standard missiles. Again cost is insignificant and size can be larger, in even 21dton increments, the requirement being designation as such at the time the weapon bay is built.

A 50ton bay is also equal to about 42 launchers using the TL to pack it into a smaller space. Everything except the size of the bay is the same.

* MTU also allows turret and bay lauchers to fire heavy missiles of single 150KG instead of three 50KG missiles. The effect is like a salvo of 3 standard missiles in one attack roll in CT combat. In HG combat there is no difference.

 

[JAFARR]

from SS1

MISSILE STORAGE ​

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Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim and fire the weaponry in ​

the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn. The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).​

Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn.

It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn.
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LBB2 pg 32

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Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position. When a launcher's missiles or canisters are exhausted, it may be reloaded by the turret's gunner in one turn. Reloading three launchers would take three turns. A gunner engaged in reloading is unable to fire other weaponry in the turret.

LBB2 page 17

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Individual missiles weigh about 50 kg, and cost Cr5,000 each.replacement canisters of this special sand weigh about 50 kg and cost Cr400.

I ran out of time. I'll finish this later tonight or tomorrow.​

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[Jame]

I always just assumed that turrets had autoloaders automatically.

 

[ranger2261]

Hey All,
In the turret, my take was one missle in ready launch mode,
and the next two missles are in auto loader cradles.
Per launcher, and that's all, no more ammo fits.

Then if there was a dedicated magazine, the missles are in storage, in a cradle, ready for loading.

connecting the Magazine to the turret, then gives the turret's autoloader a ready supply,
and no extra crew needed for manual reloading.

 

[Gray Lensman]

If you have 3 rounds (espcially small ships) worth ready in turret do you need more?

Most of the small combats I have been playing with lately rarely go over 3 rounds before some one is destroyed or trying to run away.

 

[JAFARR]

A bold assumption friend :smirk:

Look at the dates between the first two posts. That is what I based that assumption on.

 

[JAFARR]

In the post where I ran out of time, I intended to make the point that as either sand canisters or missiles weigh 50 Kg or 110 lbs, manually handling them to move refills to the launching rack is no easy task. (Even in zero gravity, you still have mass to consider.) I had forgotten about 2 on standby and SS3's statement that:

The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it.

As I stated elsewhere, these aren't WW2 bomber turrets. Autoloaders allow you to provide remote gunnery stations, like near the bridge to provide ease of communications and additional safety for the gunner.

Magazines allow you to stockpile ammo when you have the finances so you don't have to replace ammo if you use it when you are strapped for cash. On a 400 ton ship with a triple missile, a triple sand and two triple Blaser, a 1/2 ton magazine with autoloader can stock 25 missiles and 25 sand canisters. Cost is 10KCr and the 1/2 ton of ship's volume.

Besides all that, one of the items that as been pointed out over and over again until MT arrived is the overlooking of a magazine provision in the rules. To me autoloaders (from SnapShot or was it Striker) were an eazy step beyond the magazines.