Augument Lifesupport Costs

[Cryton]

My mercinary game has taken an interesting turn, and my players are looking into augumented troops for their mercinary cruiser, however the cost effect of augumented troops is not covered in either the sections on auguments , not in lifesupport costs sections of any of the books. I could use some advice.

So, as a marine with the Soldier Organ Package now has a 6000 calorie intake instead of the standard human 1800, what do you charge for monthly life support for him?

And how about for the FBR augument? Hes got a 10 000 calorie intake ,but dosnt breath. What should be charged for him?

And how about for the guy with the 15 000 calorie diet because hes gotten a Bio-Fusion Power Port augument? Or the guy with only an Improved Combat Arm, and its additional 1000 calorie requirement beyond the normal 1800?

Any ideas?

 

[rancke]

Any ideas?

Either ignore it because the canonical life support costs are messed up in the first place (no one has ever been able to come up with a reasonable explanation of what the Cr2000 per jump actually buys), or work out reasonable life support costs that specifies the cost of the food for a normal individual and then multiply that by an appropriate factor.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

Dug a little deeper into my copy of Sup4 CSP, and a 2000 cal diet works out to about 500cr per week for high quality meals.

So, Im going to charge 2k base for the augumented marines with an additional 1Kcr for the extra food required for a 6k cal diet.

Any ideas on how much cargo tonnage should be used by the extra food?

 

[aramis]

Let's see... sing TTB

1. 6 person hours air: Cr20, 5kg. (p.107)
   14 person days air 14d x4pd xCr20 = Cr1120 (and 279kg...)
2. Pick one of:
   • Food, home prep: Cr5/person/day
     14 person days food, home prep 14x5 = Cr70
   • Canned Rations, Cr20/person/day, 0.5kg/day
     14 days x Cr20 = Cr280
   • Dehydrated Rations, Cr25/person/day
     14 days x Cr25 = Cr350
   High Quality is x3.
   (p.109)
3. Bedding Cr10 (used tarpaulin for cost)

Assuming high quality "canned" meals, air and food alone runs 1120 + 840 = Cr1960 per 2 weeks. Adding bedding, napkins, soap, etc, you're easily over Cr2000...

It's rather easy to see how it was added up. Adding scrubbers and filters (Say Cr10 per week), and water purification filters and chemicals, one can readily push the costs back up after a 10% volume discount.

Note that the costs for prospectors for food and filters is Cr175/week.... (BoJTAS1 p.30), so there is a disconnect... probably in quality (subsitence level is 60% of ordinary, Cr168, and then filters for Cr20...then a 10% volume discount), and reliance upon filtration and O2 from the fuel purification systems, and generated water rather than recycled/filtered...

 

[Cryton]

Let's see... sing TTB

1. 6 person hours air: Cr20, 5kg. (p.107)
   14 person days air 14d x4pd xCr20 = Cr1120 (and 279kg...)
2. Pick one of:
   • Food, home prep: Cr5/person/day
     14 person days food, home prep 14x5 = Cr70
   • Canned Rations, Cr20/person/day, 0.5kg/day
     14 days x Cr20 = Cr280
   • Dehydrated Rations, Cr25/person/day
     14 days x Cr25 = Cr350
   High Quality is x3.
   (p.109)
3. Bedding Cr10 (used tarpaulin for cost)

Assuming high quality "canned" meals, air and food alone runs 1120 + 840 = Cr1960 per 2 weeks. Adding bedding, napkins, soap, etc, you're easily over Cr2000...

It's rather easy to see how it was added up. Adding scrubbers and filters (Say Cr10 per week), and water purification filters and chemicals, one can readily push the costs back up after a 10% volume discount.

Note that the costs for prospectors for food and filters is Cr175/week.... (BoJTAS1 p.30), so there is a disconnect... probably in quality (subsitence level is 60% of ordinary, Cr168, and then filters for Cr20...then a 10% volume discount), and reliance upon filtration and O2 from the fuel purification systems, and generated water rather than recycled/filtered...

Nice breakdown Aramis. A bit more than I was after, but....Nice.

 

[rancke]

Let's see... sing TTB

1. 6 person hours air: Cr20, 5kg. (p.107)
   14 person days air 14d x4pd xCr20 = Cr1120 (and 279kg...)

That's the cost for a refill of a six-hour underwater air tank, which would be retail price and include a service charge. Using that figure to calculate the cost of air used in a starship ignores economics of scale completely. Note that the air tax for the City of Leedor is Cr10 per 24 hour.

It also ignores the rather basic fact that crew and passengers are aboard the ship only 9 days per trip on the average and thus only consumes air (and food) for 9 rather than 14 days.

• Pick one of:
  • Food, home prep: Cr5/person/day
    14 person days food, home prep 14x5 = Cr70
  • Canned Rations, Cr20/person/day, 0.5kg/day
    14 days x Cr20 = Cr280
  • Dehydrated Rations, Cr25/person/day
    14 days x Cr25 = Cr350
  High Quality is x3.
  (p.109)

• Subsistence on a long term basis: good food, Cr200 per month.

Assuming that a starship can muster a refrigerator and a freezer, you should be able to buy fresh food in bulk and keep it fresh for an entire ten day starship voyage. Buying luxury canned rations for Cr60 per day is completely unreasonable, especially for a tramp merchant. So is throwing out 1/3rd of them every fortnight.

Assuming high quality "canned" meals, air and food alone runs 1120 + 840 = Cr1960 per 2 weeks. Adding bedding, napkins, soap, etc, you're easily over Cr2000...

The assumption of paying for high quality canned meals and air in six-hour retail lots is one that I challenge as being unreasonable.

Note that the costs for prospectors for food and filters is Cr175/week.... (BoJTAS1 p.30), so there is a disconnect... probably in quality (subsitence level is 60% of ordinary, Cr168, and then filters for Cr20...then a 10% volume discount), and reliance upon filtration and O2 from the fuel purification systems, and generated water rather than recycled/filtered...

There is also a huge problem with the assumption that there is only two possible levels of starship life support, subsistence for 14 days and wild luxury for 9 (And just what is the difference between ordinary air and subsistence air (Which apparently costs Cr1000 for 39 weeks)?). Your explanation is not reasonable.


Hans

 

[aramis]

No, Hans, It's not "reasonable" ... I never claimed it was. (You're the one making issue of "reasonable" but "reasonable" and Traveller are often at odds.

If we use the air tax as a basis instead, it's still Cr140 per two weeks for air (about 12% of the cost of refills), but that's also a recycling system, not a charge of tankage. And shockingly enough, still more than the miner's kibble would allow for.


Also, economies of scale on services are often non-extant; frequently they are in fact MORE expensive due to administrative overhead than the individal services would be if individually contracted.

One other thing: We know that canonical starship food is high quality, sufficient on its face for dukes and admirals alike.

 

[rancke]

No, Hans, It's not "reasonable" ... I never claimed it was.

Sorry. I assumed your post was in response to my claim that "no one has ever been able to come up with a reasonable explanation of what the Cr2000 per jump actually buys".

(You're the one making issue of "reasonable" but "reasonable" and Traveller are often at odds.

I am indeed making an issue of it. That's because it is an issue worth making, since every little bit of 'unreasonable' piled on top of every other bit of 'unreasonable' makes it just a little more difficult to maintain that willing suspension of disbelief that is so useful to enjoying a good roleplaying campaign.

Nevertheless, note that my original advice was to ignore the issue.

If we use the air tax as a basis instead, it's still Cr140 per two weeks for air (about 12% of the cost of refills), but that's also a recycling system, not a charge of tankage. And shockingly enough, still more than the miner's kibble would allow for.

I didn't mean to advocate using the cost of a life-support system meant for thousands of people to figure out the cost of a system meant for dozens. I would suggest something in between the two extremes.

One other thing: We know that canonical starship food is high quality, sufficient on its face for dukes and admirals alike.

That's part of the point I was making. Why should ordinary middle passengers (not to mention crew), especially on a tramp merchant, receive the same luxury fare that a duke or an admiral is used to? Now, if the rules allowed people to distinguish between various levels of service, it would work a lot better (Though I still wouldn't believe in Cr2000 life support costs as the average. As the standard luxury version (which even high passengers wouldn't expect to get on a tramp), perhaps).

Note, BTW, that MGT (we are on the Mongoose board, after all) claims that the cost is per stateroom, regardless of whether it is occupied or not[*], and that "meals at this level will be rather spartan" (p. 138). That really rules out Cr60 a day rations. After all, Cr60 is roughly the equivalent of $200.

[*] I hope I may be allowed to state that a rule that charges the same life support cost for no occupants, one occupant for ten days, and two occupants for 14 days is... grossly inadequate -- without being accused of Mongoose-bashing.[**]

[**] Though in fairness to Mongoose, the difference between passengers for 9 days and crew for 14 is a legacy problem. None of the versions have addressed that.​

Hans

 

[aramis]

If it's fresh food, no, it goes bad right quick, and many kinds of scrubber chemicals will react at fixed rate no matter how much demand is made.
The occpied or not is pretty bogus, I complained about it during playtest, and, fundamentally, it's a fair assessment that the playtesters were not carefully listened to.

A number of such issues crept in...

The Cr2000 rate, unreasonable as it is, is readily explainable as being roughly commensurate with the component costs for that life support on the general market. It should be considerably lower, but it's always been expensive. To make it semi-reasonable, presume some antirad drugs, add some taxes, and a strong expense for delivery...

And on vacuum worlds or hostile environment worlds, the costs for carrying off a ton of liquid air being KCr1 is a pretty reasonable rate. And it's a reasonable fraction of a cargo ton (10 metric tons or 13 cubic meters...)... KCr10 per cargo ton is in line with other processed ores.

And the change to minimal food is yet another of the unexplained changes.

 

[rancke]

If it's fresh food, no, it goes bad right quick...

Refrigerator and freezer. And if for some inexplicable reason your ship doesn't have any, just buy reasonably priced preserved food. I can go out in my pantry today and fix myself a tasty meal from stuff that I bought months ago. And that's with TL7 preservation techniques.

...and many kinds of scrubber chemicals will react at fixed rate no matter how much demand is made.

That sounds extremely impractical. Not to mention very primitive. Something that might be a concern at TL 6 or 7, maybe.

The Cr2000 rate, unreasonable as it is, is readily explainable as being roughly commensurate with the component costs for that life support on the general market.

Either it's explainable or it's unreasonable.

It should be considerably lower, but it's always been expensive.

I said it was a legacy problem. It's always been expensive and that has always been unreasonable.

To make it semi-reasonable, presume some antirad drugs, add some taxes, and a strong expense for delivery...

But those are society-dependant factors (And, of course, an invitation for PCs to try to circumvent them). A rules system that claims to be generic shouldn't rely on such explanations. If TPTB wants life support to be extra expensive in the Imperium, let them note that the true cost is thus-and-so but that in the Imperium, a strong, Imperium-wide Chandler's Guild impose uniform service charges on every world in the Imperium and inspects ships' galleys at each stop to make sure they don't buy their food from unlicensed purveyors (and also throw out any left-over Cr60 ration packs).

Mind you, that might run counter to the way one or two people currently percieve the way the Imperium works.

And on vacuum worlds or hostile environment worlds, the costs for carrying off a ton of liquid air being KCr1 is a pretty reasonable rate.

Just don't recharge the ship's oxygen system on closed environment worlds. BTW, in the belter society of "Mining the Asteroids", such a recharge costs Cr1500 (air and water both). This is presumably for a small vessel (maybe even a mere two-man Seeker), but it lasts for many weeks (A topped-up fuel tank is good for 39 weeks but you can refuel at a gas giant and be good for another 39 weeks).


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Assuming that a starship can muster a refrigerator and a freezer, you should be able to buy fresh food in bulk and keep it fresh for an entire ten day starship voyage. Buying luxury canned rations for Cr60 per day is completely unreasonable, especially for a tramp merchant. So is throwing out 1/3rd of them every fortnight.

I was happy to see Aramis' explanation for the 2000 cr life support costs using other in game sources. Even if one disagrees with the 2000 credit figure, the list at least provides a starting point for derriving an alternative figure or list.

While I (and aramis) would probably agree with some of your 'concerns' with the 2000 credit figure, I would point out that neither you nor I have offered an alternative list of expenses. In my case, paying 2000 credits was never a serious issue for any game I was in, so it is not worth my time to expend the effort in creating a detailed analysis. Only you know your reasons.

It is your phrase "especially for a tramp merchant" that I would like to take issue with. If the same wealthy passenger pays the same credits for a High Passage on a 600 dT Luxury Liner or a 200 dT Free Trader, he will probably expect the same quality of service (including food). Therefore, if your 'Tramp Merchant' is providing inferior service and inferior food and inferior accomodations (so that it can pay inferior life support costs), then it should also be charging inferior fees for transporting passengers.

If you have an idea for 'more realistic' life support costs, I suggest that you write it up. Any number of fanzines (including Mongoose's S&P) would probably be happy to publish it. Throwing stones is easy, finding solutions is hard.

 

[rancke]

While I (and aramis) would probably agree with some of your 'concerns' with the 2000 credit figure, I would point out that neither you nor I have offered an alternative list of expenses. In my case, paying 2000 credits was never a serious issue for any game I was in, so it is not worth my time to expend the effort in creating a detailed analysis. Only you know your reasons.

I've nothing against coming up with an average figure and avoiding the nitpicking, if the players feel that way. However, some players do not feel that way. Take a look at the Empress Nicholle from Twilight's Peak. The overhead for two weeks is Cr21,400, of which life support accounts for Cr12,400. To a certain type of player (I used to be one; I'm more relaxed now, but I remember it well), the difference between paying Cr12,400 per 14 days or Cr8,000 per jump (~9 days), is significant. Those Cr4,000 represents 10% of the ship's operating funds. Over a year it would amount to Cr100,000.

It is your phrase "especially for a tramp merchant" that I would like to take issue with. If the same wealthy passenger pays the same credits for a High Passage on a 600 dT Luxury Liner or a 200 dT Free Trader, he will probably expect the same quality of service (including food). Therefore, if your 'Tramp Merchant' is providing inferior service and inferior food and inferior accomodations (so that it can pay inferior life support costs), then it should also be charging inferior fees for transporting passengers.

Why should it? If the passenger is willing to spend a High Passage voucher to get aboard the tramp, odds are that he has little choice in the matter. If there was a regular liner going where he wants to go, why not take that?

To me it is very implausible that anyone would expect the same service aboard a tramp than he'd expect aboard a regular liner.

And the 'especially on a tramp' also referred to the crew. Looking again at the Empress Nicholle, the crew are all part owners and have agreed to take only Cr100 per fortnight in salaries (200 for the captain) to make ends meet. But they insist on chowing down on $200/day ship rations, even when they're in port? I don't think so.

If you have an idea for 'more realistic' life support costs, I suggest that you write it up. Any number of fanzines (including Mongoose's S&P) would probably be happy to publish it. Throwing stones is easy, finding solutions is hard.

Actually, convincing TPTB that there is a problem in the first place seems to be the really hard part.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

Ok. Now that all that is out of the way, is there anyone who can help me find an awnser using MgT?

Its not that I dont appriciate the references to TTB or other Traveller sources, because I do, and am going to impliment some of them in my own non-MgT game, BUT, this was posted in the Mongoose rules section because I'm looking for a MgT backed awnser, because thats what I need for my MgT game.

I should probably have been more specific.

Appologies to the mods if I came off a bit snarky, But none of the awnsers given so far are for MgT (though they are excellent) and I still need assistance with this before the thread degenerates off topic even more.

Edit: well one awnser was, thanx Hans, but I want more than ignore it.

 

[aramis]

Apply MGT CRB p.87 per 4000 to 6000 calories above 2000...

Why? assume half that cost is lodging and sundries. The other half is food. Or make it per 6000 cal over 2000, which makes food 1/3 the base rate.

A typical US expense is 1/3 housing, 1/3 entertainment and sundries, and 1/3 food. (Lower income tends to less entertainment and more housing, approaching 60% for housing on the lowest levels...)

 

[Cryton]

Thanks Aramis. Both the awnsers are awesome. And the second one was what I was needing,