• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Archdukes and emperors are beyond the normal scope of play

Archdukes and emperors are beyond the normal scope of play.

  • Agree

    Votes: 89 53.0%
  • Disagree

    Votes: 33 19.6%
  • Partially agree

    Votes: 46 27.4%

  • Total voters
    168
Another adventuresome main character of wealth and power, and effectively noble or celebrity status:

Willard Phule, aka Captain Jester, Scion of Phule-Proof Munitions: Rob't Asprins' Phules' Company series
Sure, but he has no responsibilities to get in his way. Plus, just what sort of Traveller adventures would you run for someone with an entire mercenary company and the money to buy several more?

(Mercenary tickets, of course. DUH! ;))
Lord Miles Naismith Vorkosigan, Count Piotr Vorkosigan, Emperor Gregor Vorbarra, Lord Padma & Lady Alys Vorpatril, Lord Aral & Lady Cordelia Vorkosigan, Lord Ivan Vorpatril... Much of the entire Vorkosigan series by Bujold are the adventures of Miles, and his kinsman Ivan and Gregor, while he is deputy to the council of Counts. The others, however, are during a civil war... Gregor's one adventure is a run-away situation which definitely shows the prisoner trap of being the emperor...
The common thread there (and with the example of Honor Harrington) is that when they're not performing their governmental duties, it's because they have stronger duties compelling them to do something else.

Gregor's adventure I would take to be a good example of needing to get away from the trappings of position before having that sort of adventure.

We'll see what happens with the next novel in the series with Count Vorkosigan.
I hope so. I really hope that Bujold has gotten over her writer's block now. Supposedly it was due to her reluctance to deal with Aral's death.


Hans
 
Last edited:
In their own way they are just as important as 'Imperial' nobles. They're big fish in a small pond. They may not rate highly on a galactic scale, but in their own backyard they have exactly the same problems and exactly the same number of hours in their day.
I disagree when it comes to Imperial high nobles. Imperial honor nobles "only" have the problems of really high-profile media celebrities. They may be thought of as analogous to younger sons of present-day Earth royalty. High nobles have more power (and commensurate duties) than any monarch on Earth today, but such monarchs are the closest analogy we have. And such people don't normally have Traveller-type adventures.

BTW, I'd have no problems with a lower-ranking Imperial noble -- honor noble, anyway -- as the center of a Traveller campaign. In fact, I have some scattered notes about just that somewhere. He'd be posing as an idle rich noble traveling around in his private yacht, looking for a good time. The other PCs would be his crew/henchmen. Adventures would deal with checking up on rumors of misbehaving Imperial nobles and other threats against the Imperium. He'd have an Imperial warrant, of course (Possibly an unlimited one -- but not a 'to bearer' one :D).
This may be the situation in 21st Century England, and probably in the OTU, but what made the previous Prince's exploits easier was lack of paparazzi. it depends on YTU, of course, but maybe some administrators have no freedom of the press to worry about.
<irony>Right, because the Imperium has consistently been shown to have the power to micro-manage all aspects of life on every member world.</irony>

Did I hear a story about one of the Roman Emperors (Marcus Aurelius?) going around incognito to find out first hand what his subjects thought, rather than having information filtered through layers of sycophants? No doubt Mithras could tell me.
There's a plot for you.
No, there's a germ of a plot seed for me. The incognito ruler (who is per definition not wearing the trappings of his office, btw.) is most often associated with Haroun al Raschid. He puts on a disguise, pops down to the market-place and roam about for a few hours, then return to his palace and his duties. Not exactly the recipe for a normal Traveller campaign. It needs work.

Incidentally, I've thought of an example myself. The Connatic, absolute ruler of the 3000 worlds of the Alastor Cluster, featured in two of Jack Vance's three Alastor Cluster books, also finds time to roam about as an pesudonymous special agent with Imperial warrant-like authority. However, Vance never actually explains how much time he spends in one guise and how much in the other nor how his Connatical duties are handled in his absence.


Hans
 
Last edited:
What's the complete list?

Code:
Table of rungs 
Rung  Base                          Old Terran equivalent
 11    Appointmemt                  Knight 
 12    Fame/Fortune                 Magnate 
 13    Hereditary, no people       Banneret 
 14    Thousands of people        Baron 
 15    Tens of thousands          Viscount/Count 
 16    Hundreds of thousands    Marquis/Duke
 17    Millions                         Archduke/Prince 
 18    Tens of millions              King
 19    1-3 hundreds of millions   Emperor 
 20    4-9 hundreds of millions   No equivalent 
 21    1-3 billions                    No equivalent
 22    4-9 billions                    No equivalent 
 23    10-30 billions                 No equivalent 
 24    More than 30 billion         No equivalent 


Modifications 
TRAVELLER TECH STATUS  or GURPS TECH STATUS  
Pre-industrial society -4        GTL0 to GTL3 -4 
Industrial society -2             GTL4 -3 
Pre-stellar society -1            GTL5 and GTL6 -2 
Early Stellar society 0           GTL7 and GTL8 -1 
Average Stellar society +2     GTL9 and GTL10 0 
High Stellar society +4           GTL11 +2 
                                         GTL12 +4 
     
OTHER FACTORS    
Sovereign ruler +1    
Elected or appointed ruler -1    
Heir to position -1    
Younger son -2    
Minor Non-human race -1    



All modifications are guidelines only. Positions that reach rung 24 and above
will almost invariably receive an Imperial noble title (So the ruler of a planet
with 400 million citizens (rung 20) and a tech level of TTL15/GTL12 (+4
rungs) would be at least an Imperial baron, quite possibly more).

For comparison here are the rungs of some other Imperial knighthoods and of
Imperial nobles:

TITLE                   RUNG 
Knight Bachelor       14 
 
Frater/Sorer of the Order of the Arrow (F.A./S.A.) 19  
Knight Commander of the Order of the Arrow (K.C.A.) 20 
Grand Commander of the Order of the Arrow (G.C.A.) 21 

Companion of the Emperor's Guard (C.E.G.) 20 
Knight Commander of the Emperor's Guard (K.C.E.G.) 21 
Grand Commander of the Emperor's Guard (G.C.E.G.) 22 

Knight of the Starship&Crown (K.S.G.) 22 

Companion of a domain  21 
Knight of a domain  22 
Knight/Grand Commander of a domain  23 

 Baronet  21 
(Senior baronet  22) 

 Baron  23 
(Senior baron  24) 
Marquis  25 
(Senior marquis  26) 
Viscount  26 
Count  27 
(Senior count  28) 
Duke  29 
(Senior duke  30) 
Archduke/Prince  31 
High Prince  32 
Emperor  33 

Senior noble titles are not formal. They reflect the fact that some peers are
more equal than others. Usually senior status is accorded for a variety of
reasons: How old the title is, how long the present incumbent has held it,
how rich or powerful he is, etc. Thus a sector duke is senior from the day he
inherits his title while a subsector duchess may be senior if she has dangled
the present sector duke on her knee when he was a kid.



Hans
 
That's flat out wrong. The man gets enslaved. That's as far from retaining the trappings of his position as you can get.
It's flat-out right. Judah Ben-Hur is a prince of his people. He is on high, is thrown down, and then raised back up again, only to be, perhaps, humbled once more; with various adventures along the way.

When he leaves Rome, he's a major nobleman. Perhaps not the equivalent of emperor or archduke, but that is just quibbling. He runs off to Palestine as soon as he assumes his title, one big adventure along the way, culminating with a battle to the death for the sake of revenge.


It's been a while since I reread those, so I could be wrong, but I don't recall any that did.
That's ok.


And how many of them went off having adventures instead of fighting thread?
In each novel. Political interaction with the lords of the holds and other Weyrleaders was right there the whole time, allies, villains, etc.


Which of the characters are you thinking of?
There is one main character in that book. He has numerous adventures on the way up, and when he gets there, too.


I don't see how that applies.
Robin becomes one of the richest and most influential men on Earth; and he still goes off and has adventures. In a way, the second book is an adventure through his mind.


I've only read the Belgariad (Eddings wrote a good book -- over and over again).
Yeah, regrettably, the second pentalogy was, essentially, a repeat of the first pentalogy where they were only different in the specific details; it even pointed this out and incorporated it into the plot and milieu background. The second two pentalogies were very similar in tone and feel to the first two, as well.


I don't see the relevance.
A large batch of major nobles, including a high king (read emperor) and an imperial princess, plus two great religious centerpieces of multiple kingdoms whose lives had spanned millennia and for whom many people bowed down in reverence, who easily ranked with emperors; Belgarath could have dictated pretty much whatever he wanted in the Alorn kingdoms and they would have done it, kicking and screaming, maybe, but they would have done it; all out adventuring their way through book after book.


Beyond the normal scope of play, you mean?
I did not mean that. Unfortunately, normal is a relative term. If a group does nothing but political campaigns of nobles vying for status and romance on Capital, then adventures on a tramp freighter struggling to make the next mortgage payment are going to seem abnormal.

Say more, situations which are not often represented in published Traveller adventure material; knowing nothing of what the breadth of existing Traveller players have accomplished on their own without public recognition.


And what sort of adventures would you run them through?
It's not my cup of tea, personally.

Perhaps I could dig through some of the Tom Clancy novels I used to read before Ryan became Mary Sue and I gave up on the series.

There are many political thrillers in books, movies, and TV. I even pay attention to a few. I just personally wouldn't want to GM or adventure in them (although I do tinker with them on a milieu-building basis). This makes them look abnormal to me personally and so they seem like specialized situations. They may not seem so to others.
 
I think there are two ways to look at the question that's the title of this thread.

One is, can you play with a team made of high ranking nobles?

Sure you can, if you adapt the tone of your campaign (political intrigue, etc). Quite difficult, but not impossible.

The other way to look at it is What to do if CGen gives you a (or some) character(s) who is(are) a high noble(s)? Is it playable?

First of all I see different a character with initial SS C (a born noble, probably high noble) and a character who raises his SS to C or more while CGen (e.g. rolling various +2 SS on mustering out), which I see probably as a honor noble, and so more playable on a non-noble oriented campaign.

Should you have a character who ends his(her) CGen as a hight noble and not wanting to play a noble oriented campaign, I allways have seen two ways: the easier is seeing him as a distant relative of a higher noble (unless to be a baron, your C SS character is a distant cousin of a count), as I allready said in earlier entries.

The other way is stripping him(her) of the place. That's easier to do in the rebelion millieu (moot disolved, brothers of variant active, many patents revoked, etc), but may be done in any millieu (see Glorinna firella casual encounter in JTAS nº 11 as example).

Of course, if you use that second way, it may be justice to give the stripped charactes something to compensate him(her), like a web of contacts (and another of enemies) from his (her) previous post, etc
 
It's flat-out right. Judah Ben-Hur is a prince of his people. He is on high, is thrown down, and then raised back up again, only to be, perhaps, humbled once more; with various adventures along the way.

When he leaves Rome, he's a major nobleman. Perhaps not the equivalent of emperor or archduke, but that is just quibbling.
Far from being a quibble, it's a crucial point. There are two kinds of nobles, those whose responsibilities and visibility are small enough to allow them to have normal Traveller-type adventures and those whose responsibilities and visibility makes them unsuitable (except for one-offs positing unusual circumstances). Desert tribe princes who moonlights as merchants belong to the first kind; Imperial archdukes and the Emperor belong to the second. Of course, there's a bit of a grey area where it's debatable. Can you do something with an Honor Harrington or a Miles Vorkosigan cognate? I have my doubts, but I could be wrong. Imperial high dukes? I don't think so. Imperial honor dukes? I doubt it, but maybe. But Imperial archdukes and the Emperor do not fall into the grey area; they're squarely in the 'unsuitable' box.

I did not mean that. Unfortunately, normal is a relative term. If a group does nothing but political campaigns of nobles vying for status and romance on Capital, then adventures on a tramp freighter struggling to make the next mortgage payment are going to seem abnormal.
Now, that's quibbling. How many groups who do nothing but political campaigns of nobles vying for status and romance on Capital do you know of? How many published campaigns with that premise do you know of? In my own case the answers would be 'none' and 'none'. When I think of the normal scope of play, I don't think of the extreme outliers.

Say more, situations which are not often represented in published Traveller adventure material; knowing nothing of what the breadth of existing Traveller players have accomplished on their own without public recognition.
That cuts both ways. You don't know that anyone is playing that sort of games, though I'm quite prepared to believe that there must be some who do. But I do know that I've never stumbled across any fan material describing any such games, so I feel confident in assuming that they must be rare. Because if they were normal, they'd be much more in evidence than they are.


It's not my cup of tea, personally.
That wasn't what I asked. I just wondered if you actually had an argument there. A list of PCs suitable for having normal Traveller adventures with the Emperor is meaningless without some suggestions for the sort of normal adventures they could have.


Hans
 
Last edited:
Now, that's quibbling. How many groups who do nothing but political campaigns of nobles vying for status and romance on Capital do you know of? How many published campaigns with that premise do you know of? In my own case the answers would be 'none' and 'none'. When I think of the normal scope of play, I don't think of the extreme outliers.

Frankly, for playing this kind of play I'd prefer Pendragon, which specializes on that.

It's not SF, but fun anyway, and more ready for playing nobles (a comoneer character is the exception on it).
 
Partially agree. You should be able to meet one randomly, but they would be more likely to be patrons or Really Big News.

In one of our campaigns the GM had our group meet Princess Iphegenia twice. But that was more "wouldn't it be cool to meet a member of the Imperial Family?" than anything else (later in that campaign one of our characters was a duke but that was due to using the MTCG).
 
Last edited:
The Dune and Babylon 5 RPGs had player characters who were emperor of the Galaxy, or even just the President of Earth?

Imperial barons, especially honor nobles, are not in the same league as archdukes and emperors.

And I repeat, once more, my question, still unanswered:

I'm talking about sitting down around a table with five of my friends. Each of them has a character sheet in front of him. One of the sheets detail Archduke Kieran Adair of Sol. Now tell me, what characters do the other four play, and what adventures do I run them through that gives them all more or less the same amount of "screen time"?

Hans

I don't know about the RPG, but the show B5 had a Satai personally conducting a high priority covert survailance mission in the first season. A satai must be about equal to an Archduke.
 
If I recall there was one Emperor who resigned his position and decided he preferred to be a troubleshooting warrantholder. He still remained a prince.
 
If I recall there was one Emperor who resigned his position and decided he preferred to be a troubleshooting warrantholder. He still remained a prince.
Yes, Cleon II. He probably remained an emperor, technically speaking (How did they address Napoleon after he was defeated?). But he didn't keep on functioning as an emperor. He turned into a troubleshooter. To paraphrase P.G. Wodehouse, in this life you can either function as an emperor or you can function as a troubleshooter. You cannot do both.


Hans
 
I'm talking about sitting down around a table with five of my friends. Each of them has a character sheet in front of him. One of the sheets detail Archduke Kieran Adair of Sol. Now tell me, what characters do the other four play, and what adventures do I run them through that gives them all more or less the same amount of "screen time"?
Four others?

1 -- Seneschal
2 -- Huscarles Commander
3 -- High Justicar
4 -- Spymaster

What sort of adventures?

1 -- The SolSec is blanketing Sol Domain with spies. It's your job to root them out.
2 -- There is a Hiver plot afoot to use psychohistory to alter the balance of power between the Solomani Rim and the Imperium, but which way, you cannot tell! Find out what is going on and make sure it's the Solomani who get the short end of the stick while sending the Hivers packing.
3 -- Solomani Rim naval forces near Kukulkan </sp> are massing in very large numbers, ostensibly to bring the world to heel. There are so many fleets there that they could easily turn and attack the Imperium. What do you do?

The Archduke might very well not get much screen time in comparison to the other players. Poor Archy-duky, there, there.
 
The whole discussion assumes that an imperial high noble thingy sits around in one place, holds daily "meet the sociopats" sessions (aka audience) and is generally "well known" all over the empire.

What if it has a "Travelling court"?

Given the long news delays in Traveller an Archduke travelling the domain makes IMHO a lot more sense than one sitting around on a single world. At that level there is constant change and that is a source for a scenario. And all the "citizens with cause" (power/money grubbing sociopats) will form the background of a nice court intrigue or three. This type of noble might actually DO something and get down close and personal

Who says the noble thingy really DOES something

The empire survived the Barracks emperors because the Bwaps kept running the show. So who says that the nobles are more than empty figureheads doing 3-4 "presentations" a year. Sure, they command "power" but who is keeping them from delegating them to a Senneshall and just "attend important social functions (Party, Drugs, Groupies), "present high nobility to the loyal citizens" (Travell around a lot) and not to forget "promote the sciences" (Hang around archeological digs)

Who says the nobles are "well known"

I would not recognize our current EU president (don't even know it's name, don't care for the airwastes in Brussel) and it is a lot closer and with less "travel time" for the news than an archduke. Add in that the 3I does not rule the worlds and chances are any nobel thingy above "local baron" (The parasite that sucks of our hard earned money) is off little to no interest to most planetary citizens. Similar to the current day EU and most citizens. So a higher noble can run around without being recognized most of the time

How much news is there anyway

Dictatorships can impose a lot of restrictions on the press and personal freedom. And with such nice things as "Red Zone" interdicted worlds silently getting rid of a too nosy journalist is just a matter of launching the drop capsule. Similar to Pournelles CoDo dropping dissidents of on Haven. So if the local high thingy does not like being in the press, it won't be. Add in that interstellar travel is slow and the typical way to send news is the state controlled X-Boat system (Also gives a reason for the pilot - the Boats computers check the mail, censor the obvious/easy stuff and the pilot is there for the complex / borderline jobs) and news may be quite restricted

What's an archdukes job anyway

Prior to Strephon the Weak they had been severly curtailed in their powers. Or at least that is what they wanted you to believe. Who says that is true? Maybe their real job was to spy on the dukes and other powerful nobles to keep them from "going their own way". This would link in nicely with a travelling archeduke



As for a group for such a setting it would center around the archduke thingy and maybe it's reproduction partner. The rest would be close associates like Senneschals (limp optional) and champions (screwing the reproduction partner optional) or the chief of the huscarls (hot temper optional). Worked fine for Mallory.
 
The whole discussion assumes that an imperial high noble thingy sits around Add in that interstellar travel is slow and the typical way to send news is the state controlled X-Boat system (Also gives a reason for the pilot - the Boats computers check the mail, censor the obvious/easy stuff and the pilot is there for the complex / borderline jobs) and news may be quite restricted

This assumes that people are stupid enough to send sensitive info in "the clear". Wouldn't be the case.
 
This assumes that people are stupid enough to send sensitive info in "the clear". Wouldn't be the case.

Then they will either not send them at all (XBoat-Service refuses to deliver encoded mail) or need their own setup. And unless they are a MegaCorp that will keep their area of operations quite small for cost reasons. Not to mention that ships can get lost...

The Megas OTOH are run by noblethingys themselfs and the Empire holds stocks. Not to mention that the right to operate over larger territories is granted by the empire (and what one grants, one can revoke). Oberlindes DID hang onto that part of it's properties when they collapsed for a reason.
 
Then they will either not send them at all (XBoat-Service refuses to deliver encoded mail) or need their own setup.

Sorry no. One time pads or platen codes can't be determined to be a coded message. This is what would be used if the postal system insisted on reading everything. Nice try though.
 
Sorry no. One time pads or platen codes can't be determined to be a coded message. This is what would be used if the postal system insisted on reading everything. Nice try though.

Sure I can detect one time pads. Simply by the fact that the message is not "human readable". The same goes for data. Even today that stuff is in a readabel format and some 4000 years in the future even more so than today. And even today with stuff like XML more and more "data" is readabel. There are few things send by XBoats that need to be "maschine readable" only. Mostly stuff like films/music/software. Again, easily checked (Execute Software, run music etc). I may not be able to DECODE a given encrypted message but DETECTING it is quite easy

There are some ways to hide data that are difficult to detect (Steganographie i.e) but those are complex and limited. Good enough for terror networks ("Freedom fighters") but not for general mass-use.

And the simple thread to suspend ALL XMail from that sender (and receiver) if a single encrypted message is detected will prevent the usage of encryption quite a bit.


Edit: On Time Pads also have the problem of code book distribution. And long lists of random characters/bits are even easier to dectect. And by their nature a OTP must be as random as possible and as long as possible
 
Last edited:
Sure I can detect one time pads. Simply by the fact that the message is not "human readable".



Sorry, you don't know what a one time pad is. You can transmit it in readable text. Also, how do you stop a platen code?
 
Last edited:
Sorry, you don't know what a one time pad is. You can transmit it in readable text. Also, how do you stop a platen code?

Actually I DO understand it (and written a demo version of one in university). To quote Wiki

In cryptography, the one-time pad (OTP) is a type of encryption, which has been proven to be impossible to crack if used correctly. Each bit or character from the plaintext is encrypted by a modular addition with a bit or character from a secret random key (or pad) of the same length as the plaintext, resulting in a ciphertext. If the key is truly random, as large as or greater than the plaintext, never reused in whole or part, and kept secret, the ciphertext will be impossible to decrypt or break without knowing the key.



So you have a number of random characters and use those to encrypt the message. Sure, you get characters again but the characters no longer make sense.

"Attack at dawn" becomes something like "123456789ABCDE". Characters but no longer sensible text. Computers in Traveller can understand people so they can check if a text "makes sense" (Heck, they can do that today within limits). So it can be detected.


As for "platen code" never heard about that, Google finds nothing on a short run. Have a link? But again it is likely that the result is not "typical speech/data" pattern. Same for quite a few other systems. Depending on the quality of the AI even using stuff like "use every x letter" will be found since they constrict the choice of words and end up in "strange" texts. IRL this is stuff for humans to detect and they work on "a hunch" but Traveller has AIs (and small ones at TL15 so ship-based ones should be TL12+ IMHO) and advanced expert systems.
 
Back
Top