mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It may be time for another of those Traveller TLs need revising discussions
Have a look at what they want to do next .
Have a look at what they want to do next .
Antimatter TL17+, I don't think so
- Thread starter mike wightman
- Start date
Just because it's in the R&D stage doesn't make it High Common.... 
Once it's available in something akin to Sharper Image, then I'll modify my perceptions of Terra's TL. Until then, it's not commonplace enough to impact TL. (This stance derives from the explanation for High Common found in Grand Census/World Builder's Handbook).
My Cr0.02, anyway,
Flynn
BTW, the news is very cool, though. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Once it's available in something akin to Sharper Image, then I'll modify my perceptions of Terra's TL. Until then, it's not commonplace enough to impact TL. (This stance derives from the explanation for High Common found in Grand Census/World Builder's Handbook).My Cr0.02, anyway,
Flynn
BTW, the news is very cool, though. Thanks for sharing it with us.
They are probably looking at antimatter catalyzed fission/fusion, like the Penn State has been working on. Noit really an antimatter drive, a fusion drive that uses a miniscule amount of antimatter to light a subcritical pellet.
http://www.engr.psu.edu/antimatter/documents.html
TL 17 ought to be zero point energy, though, but no-one knew about that in 1975.
http://www.engr.psu.edu/antimatter/documents.html
TL 17 ought to be zero point energy, though, but no-one knew about that in 1975.
The volume of the stuff we can make is so tiny as to be useless for any comercial venture. As tech advances and the ammount of the stuff we can make grows to grams then kilos then tons it becomes comercial. Tech 17 is too far ahead realy, it should be available well before then but at significantly higher prices. A powerplant fueled for a year which requires 10% of the total world production of anti-matter is going to cost a huge sum. When you produce enough to fuel 1000s of power plants each year the cost becomes low enough for everyone to want one.
How about a sliding scale of availability and cost
Say an item is comerically available at tech level X
2 tech levels higher the item is readily available to the general public and cost is lower
1 tech level lower the item is only available to the government and is 300% the cost and is very limited in quantity
2 tech levels lower and the item is only in extreme small quantities, found only at research stations under guard and cost (if at all) 1,000%
As an example the Gurps Traveller game does this when you are building ships.
I kind of like it because it allows players to possibly be able to find that need element (item) when stranded on a 'backward' world but turns it into an adventure. Plus it has some realism to also.
Just some thoughts
Dave
Say an item is comerically available at tech level X
2 tech levels higher the item is readily available to the general public and cost is lower
1 tech level lower the item is only available to the government and is 300% the cost and is very limited in quantity
2 tech levels lower and the item is only in extreme small quantities, found only at research stations under guard and cost (if at all) 1,000%
As an example the Gurps Traveller game does this when you are building ships.
I kind of like it because it allows players to possibly be able to find that need element (item) when stranded on a 'backward' world but turns it into an adventure. Plus it has some realism to also.
Just some thoughts
Dave
David's right - the tech level scale is inherently practical, and directly affects two dimensions: availability and price. The TL scale probably roughly maps to an order of magnitude for each dimension. On an R&D level, the tech level tree doesn't seem to apply as well.
Antimatter is also very dangerous as mere hydrogen is not. Outside of a fusion reactor hydrogen can only burn. Antimatter on the otherhand needs to be contained so that it does not destroy the starport or city that its housed in. Governments might not want antimatter to be easily available to the masses. Even a technology that can safely handle and store antimatter is subject to sabotage. Govenments might not be so eager to develop cheap antimatter technology.
The various Star Trek TV series, show examples of starships powered by antimatter from shuttlecraft to heavy cruisers. Antimatter is no big deal, but in the real world you have to consider the destructive potential of antimatter. In an antimatter powered setting, starships would not be allowed to land on inhabited planets or near population centers as the reactor of a scout ship can hold enough antimatter to destroy a city. Military vessels maybe antimatter powered since it would be controlled by the government and such types of vessels have also carried nuclear weapons.
The various Star Trek TV series, show examples of starships powered by antimatter from shuttlecraft to heavy cruisers. Antimatter is no big deal, but in the real world you have to consider the destructive potential of antimatter. In an antimatter powered setting, starships would not be allowed to land on inhabited planets or near population centers as the reactor of a scout ship can hold enough antimatter to destroy a city. Military vessels maybe antimatter powered since it would be controlled by the government and such types of vessels have also carried nuclear weapons.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
Very good point Tom. I don't see anti-matter technology coming along all that quickly, and I have to say "Thank God" because of that.
BTW, where I work we make our own antimatter. But they never let me bring any home. <pout> [I work at a high energy research center. I am just a tech, keep the machine running for and despite the brainy guys. We make positrons, but these guys just smash them up as fast as we make them.]
BTW, where I work we make our own antimatter. But they never let me bring any home. <pout> [I work at a high energy research center. I am just a tech, keep the machine running for and despite the brainy guys. We make positrons, but these guys just smash them up as fast as we make them.]
One safety feature of an antimatter powerplant would be to design it so that it can hold only a tiny speck of antimatter such that should containment fail, it will only have the explosive force of an exploding gasoline tank in a car, but the the question becomes, how do you know that it hasn't been altered to hold a kilogram of antimatter? A kilogram of antimatter should be enough to destroy any city and keeping it in a vacuum chamber suspended by magnets should be trivial if its in one solid chunk. The fuel supply of an antimatter vehicle can easily last for the lifetime of the vehicle so that it would never have to be refueled. The vehicle might even be designed so that you can't refuel it. In the event that it lasts long enough to run out of fuel, you would simply buy a new vehicle. Again the biggest problem is sabotage. Someone might buy an antimatter car or whatever to get at the antimmatter inside, so they might try to drill in toward the antimatter containment area so as to let the outside air mix with it, it would be suicide to do so, but that hasn't stopped people in the past.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Good thoughts. Perhaps the best way would be to build the whole antimatter powerplant as a sealed black-box affair with external leads for control and power feed.
The whole thing would be as you said limited in fuel supply to reduce the potential energies and when it runs out* you just replace the powerplant, perhaps with a credit on the exchange such that it come out to the same cost as simply doing the annual maintenance. Of course this item would not be subject to routine maintenance then.
* Or sooner, like at each annual maintenance check, assuming a safety margin of a couple extra months of fuel maybe.
As for various sabotage scenarios, these would be planned for as well as possible and the design would try to anticipate them. It would be impervious to most penetrations, have safeguards against tampering or removal, etc.
It would be as safe as say the threat posed by a 1,000+ ton ship hurtling itself fully fueled into a city
And yeah, it would probably be a military only item for the first TL of introduction. What civilian use requires that little extra energy density They can still make a good profit with the much more understood TL16 Fusion powerplants.
Actually I prefer the fusion plants for its easier repair and maintenance as well as the wilderness refueling ability.
The whole thing would be as you said limited in fuel supply to reduce the potential energies and when it runs out* you just replace the powerplant, perhaps with a credit on the exchange such that it come out to the same cost as simply doing the annual maintenance. Of course this item would not be subject to routine maintenance then.
* Or sooner, like at each annual maintenance check, assuming a safety margin of a couple extra months of fuel maybe.
As for various sabotage scenarios, these would be planned for as well as possible and the design would try to anticipate them. It would be impervious to most penetrations, have safeguards against tampering or removal, etc.
It would be as safe as say the threat posed by a 1,000+ ton ship hurtling itself fully fueled into a city
And yeah, it would probably be a military only item for the first TL of introduction. What civilian use requires that little extra energy density
They can still make a good profit with the much more understood TL16 Fusion powerplants.Actually I prefer the fusion plants for its easier repair and maintenance as well as the wilderness refueling ability.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Tech Levels span centuries of time. By the end of a TL any tech of that TL would be both cheap and commonplace. Commercial competition would spur miniaturization and efficiency improvements throughout the period, varying by locality.
A TL11 power plant or drive built by one manufacturer might have all the standard stats, but in another system that has been TL11 for many centuries longer the drives might be 25% smaller and require 5-10% less fuel. The cost might be higher, or perhaps not depending on many factors.
A TL11 power plant or drive built by one manufacturer might have all the standard stats, but in another system that has been TL11 for many centuries longer the drives might be 25% smaller and require 5-10% less fuel. The cost might be higher, or perhaps not depending on many factors.
The TL17 is not the antimatter powerplant, it is the antimatter factory. A TL17 antimatter factory can produce tons of antimatter relatively cheaply. We could build an antimatter reactor today if only we had the antimatter. If fact you could do it at TL0 as all you have to do is make antimmatter come in contact with matter. At TL7 we could probably make something other than a bomb and have it do something useful. If you had a sector with one TL17 planet producing tons of antimatter, all the lower tech planets surrounding it may have spaceships powered by antimatter that the one world exports. Antimatter is very dangerous, it might be easy to make at TL17, but it would undoubtable be a controlled substance, much like Plutonium is today. The situation would be comparable to today with our nuclear powered aircraft carriers and submarines. We still have no nuclear powered cruise ships, cargo ship, or airplanes because of the dangers nuclear powerplants would pose, not that they aren't technically feasible. In the future, there'd probably be anti-antimatter groups as well protesting the construction of antimatter power plants and factories.
Straybow wrote:
"There was one civilian nuclear cargo ship in service in the 60s and 70s, the Savannah. It may now be mothballed for all I know."
Mr. Bow,
Savannah is moored at Patriot's Point in Charleston, SC. I saw her being moved down the river past the old naval shipyard to her berth there in 1981.
The tour is mildly interesting, but nothing to go out of your way for.
Sincerely,
Larsen
"There was one civilian nuclear cargo ship in service in the 60s and 70s, the Savannah. It may now be mothballed for all I know."
Mr. Bow,
Savannah is moored at Patriot's Point in Charleston, SC. I saw her being moved down the river past the old naval shipyard to her berth there in 1981.
The tour is mildly interesting, but nothing to go out of your way for.
Sincerely,
Larsen
Great points Tom,
Adding to that antimatter produced today has been in extremely small quantities and incredibly expensive.
Based on the time to develop fusion it could be a long, long time before antimatter solutions are available. How Traveller addresses TL is the real issue. Also there's nothing suggesting that a society couldn't develop a specific tech ahead of the curve.
Savage
Adding to that antimatter produced today has been in extremely small quantities and incredibly expensive.
Based on the time to develop fusion it could be a long, long time before antimatter solutions are available. How Traveller addresses TL is the real issue. Also there's nothing suggesting that a society couldn't develop a specific tech ahead of the curve.
Savage
This is a good thing. We need to use these to get off Earth and colonize other star systems*, but make sure that people like Hammas never get their hands on it.
*This seems a bit more useful for those long-ranged interstellar missions. Fusion drives, which the article mentioned, seem more useful for in-system stuff. Unless you're going to Pluto!
*This seems a bit more useful for those long-ranged interstellar missions. Fusion drives, which the article mentioned, seem more useful for in-system stuff. Unless you're going to Pluto!
Just imagine a society that never develops Jump drive, but gets everything else all the way out to TL17. Such a society would be largely confined to one star system until the development of antimatter technology. Without Jump Drive, antimatter technology is the great enabler for traveling to other stars. Before antimatter, there is only fusion and fusion without Jump Drive is only good for reaching 5% of the speed of light, meaning that it would take 88 years to reach Alpha Centauri from Sol assuming you can get to 5% of the speed of light in a short time. On a more realistic note, a fusion drive is expected to have an acceleration of 0.0001 to 0.00001 g when using the minimum required reaction mass, higher accelerations can be achieved by mixing more reaction mass with the fusion product, but this leads to a lower final velocity. Only antimatter can achieve high acceleration and near light speeds. That is without introducing such technology as a reactionless engine.
Yes Tom it would be very interesting. I have my own tech level table beyond 15. I think its clearly possible for a phobic society to accidentally miss development of a key technology.
I am unconvinced that our understanding of acceleration in space has withstood enough research to rule out better performance. As metalurgy improves we might find abilities to force better performance.
Savage
I am unconvinced that our understanding of acceleration in space has withstood enough research to rule out better performance. As metalurgy improves we might find abilities to force better performance.
Savage
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
There's one in CT canon... it's called Sabmiqys
It has a lot of other problems though
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I've just read about the positron powered mission to Mars proposal:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/exploration/mmb/antimatter_spaceship.html
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/exploration/mmb/antimatter_spaceship.html
