another look at Aslan sex ratios

[BlackBat242]

I just say that the birth ratio is 1:1 male/female with virtually no "oddballs".

The 3:1 female/male ratio is "at adulthood", and is the result of the Alsan culture pushing young males into dangerous survival-type "rites of passage" for each stage of childhood/adolescence (such as "you must kill a {insert name of dangerous animal} by yourself, with only these few primitive weapons - or "you must cross that section of wilderness alone, with no supplies or tools"), along with juvenile Aslan fighting duels that end fatally more often than adult males (less self-control, more frequent mis-match of fighting ability, etc), and the simple inevitable number of accidental deaths to be expected with aggressive "can't show fear" children growing up (females are much less aggressive, and more co-operative).


See Larry Niven's Kzin for examples - and yes, with the exception of females being intelligent and tech-savvy, my Aslan have a lot in common culturally with LN's Kzin.

 

[Ref00000]

Okay. I think I see what you did there.
But this begs two questions, and I'm being utterly serious and totally respectful;
1) Why? as in 'why bother to have this?' It's a 'dirty secret' for your Universe's Aslan? Basically, I'm seeing a circular argument to 'justify' the 3:1 ratio. If it's handwavium in the first place, why go through the trouble to write these Femules in? If the males don't care {they won't}, why have a third gender sub-race that's effectively an evolutionary dead end, when simply accepting that the combination of high death rate in combative males, and the cultural restrictions forcing most females to not reproduce cause the numbers to look as they do?
2) is this even possible from a reasonable scientific/genetic perspective, or are you just citing 'it's a big Universe' so, whatever can happen, does?

Definitely not hermaphrodites. In every way except genetic analysis, they are female, but reproductively sterile. Do an autopsy on one, and you'll find [nonfunctional] ovaries, a uterus, external genitalia indistinguishable from those of a genetic female, development of mammary glands and associated subcutaneous lipid deposits, and so on. So, I'd call them genetic males, not biological males, functioning as (and physically indistinguishable from) females.

Socially, once Aslan get to the point that they can do that sort of genetic analysis, I could see there being some problems, given how strongly the idea of sex roles pervades their society - but I could also see them ultimately making a societal decision to, in essence, say "screw it; it takes genetic analysis to tell these ... things ... from normal females, they've been functioning as females for all of recorded history; they have a useful place in society, we'll never cleanse them completely, and trying'd mean infanticide of one-quarter of the population. Leave well enough alone." Not to mention that the medical and social-science roles that would discover this would both be heavily
female-dominated.

 

[rancke]

Or, even simpler, accept that the birth ratio of males to females is 1:3.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

Which goes back to my original post again.
Unless someone can posit a different evolutionary stable solution to having such a birth ratio.

 

[aramis]

Which goes back to my original post again.
Unless someone can posit a different evolutionary stable solution to having such a birth ratio.

No mammal species has a flat 1:1 ratio. Many have a termination bias towards aborting male foeti. As in, if the mother's under stress, her body has a lower threshold for deprivation-triggered self-termination of a male foetus than for a female one. Further, many species have differential conception rates - usually around 1.1:1.

But that's pretty much only mammals.

Many other species use different gender triggering.

Bees, for example - haploids are male, diploids are female. A lone queen will produce a crop of males, get inseminated, and then produce daughters most of the time for the rest of her life. If they have 2 sex chromosomes, they're females, and 1 they're male. But female reproduction system development requires absence of a particular pheromone and/or presence of a different one - royal jelly triggers development. In some hymenopteran species, low quality queens happen when no queen pheromone is present; several workers ovarian tissue develops, triggering the pheromone, and stopping other workers nearby a little slower or later from developing.

If male-female is a diploid trait, call it m/F genes, mm is male, mf is male producing female, and ff is female-only female from a mm+mF, 3/4 will be female - 1 mm male, 2 mF females, and 1 FF female. A male paired to an FF produces 2 mF females, and 2 FF females. If FF's are sterile, then you can have a stable 1:3 ratio of births, and 1:2 ratio of reproductives.

 

[Ref00000]

so, essencially, you can just say "hormones and stuff", accept that the assemetric ratio is 'normal' throw in 'and when there's breeding/warfare stress, the rate changes 'temporarily', or that the ruling caste females 'allow' a few more lower caste matings occur.
no need for Femules.
I'm not against throwing a little arbitrary weird on aliens, but the whole deal seems a stretch.
it's an interesting bit of In My Universe color/fluff, but it's a little like 'and every tenth one is born with an accordion.'
fine, if you want to do that, but a bit twee.

 

[rancke]

I don't understand how anyone can speak so authoritatively about what is and what isn't possible for an alien species from an alien biosphere. It seems to me more unbelievable that all these mammaloid species out there are so much like the mammals of Terra. "Convergent evolution", I tell myself firmly, waving my hands enough to make me lift off the ground and hover for a moment. If anything, such little differences as a 3:1 sex ratio contribute a smidgin towards making the Aslans a trifle more plausible.


Hans

 

[FreeTrav]

Okay. I think I see what you did there.
But this begs two questions, and I'm being utterly serious and totally respectful;
1) Why? as in 'why bother to have this?' It's a 'dirty secret' for your Universe's Aslan? Basically, I'm seeing a circular argument to 'justify' the 3:1 ratio. If it's handwavium in the first place, why go through the trouble to write these Femules in? If the males don't care {they won't}, why have a third gender sub-race that's effectively an evolutionary dead end, when simply accepting that the combination of high death rate in combative males, and the cultural restrictions forcing most females to not reproduce cause the numbers to look as they do?
2) is this even possible from a reasonable scientific/genetic perspective, or are you just citing 'it's a big Universe' so, whatever can happen, does?

(1) The "Why" was simply to come up with an explanation for the 3:1 ratio. It simply didn't occur TO ME to use high male mortality - which is also a reasonable explanation, given the canon on Aslan culture.
(2) Is it possible? Show me some hard info on Aslan genetics, and I'll be able to give you a better answer. I don't think it's unreasonable; human genetics/biology show many sex-linked traits, and also traits where one copy of the allele is beneficial, but two is detrimental, and also examples of traits interacting. And Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is real, if you followed the link. So maybe there's an element of "big universe" in my 'design', but essentially nothing that we haven't seen in our own biology. There are even some odder ones; google on "Guevedoche"; the medical explanation is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guevedoche

 

[rancke]

(1) The "Why" was simply to come up with an explanation for the 3:1 ratio. It simply didn't occur TO ME to use high male mortality - which is also a reasonable explanation, given the canon on Aslan culture.

Not really, no. The canon on Aslan culture makes it clear that Aslans go out of their way to avoid mass deaths. There are various forms of ritual war designed to be less lethal or to involve limited numbers. And the loser abides by the result instead of aiming their weapons at the winner and telling him to buzz off.

The reason is easy to surmise. A clan that wins a phyrric vistory will not enjoy its new-won lands long before being attacked by a fresh third party, and it doesn't profit a clan to fend off a takeover attempt if the losses means that they will be easy meat for the next attacker.

Also, with interstellar transportation costs being what they are, only a tiny fraction of each generation would be serving on the front lines.


Hans

 

[FreeTrav]

Point conceded, though I was thinking that maybe the "pseudocanon" that I was thinking of was essentially a fairly high rate of individual deaths among males, perhaps from challenges and the Rite of Passage.

In any case, when I was writing the genetic/AIS-based explanation, I wasn't thinking of high male mortality as an explanation; I was sorta making the assumption that civilized Aslan went in the same direction, socially, that we did, and made an effort to actually minimize postnatal fatalities.

 

[Ishmael]

I don't understand how anyone can speak so authoritatively about what is and what isn't possible for an alien species from an alien biosphere. It seems to me more unbelievable that all these mammaloid species out there are so much like the mammals of Terra. "Convergent evolution", I tell myself firmly, waving my hands enough to make me lift off the ground and hover for a moment. If anything, such little differences as a 3:1 sex ratio contribute a smidgin towards making the Aslans a trifle more plausible.

Evolutionary game theory. Math doesn't bother with, or even care, about biology or aliens.

We do know from material that there are exactly 2 sexes and we know expected birth rates and that they exhibit some traits for K strategies for parental investment.

And then there is Trivers–Willard hypothesis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivers–Willard_hypothesis
But nothing in canon materials suggests that was a consideration.

I don't feel that any of the offered solutions, and certainly not mine, are supported by canon write-ups of Aslan society/culture and science together. Perhaps one or the other, but not both together.

 

[aramis]

so, essencially, you can just say "hormones and stuff", accept that the assemetric ratio is 'normal' throw in 'and when there's breeding/warfare stress, the rate changes 'temporarily', or that the ruling caste females 'allow' a few more lower caste matings occur.
no need for Femules.
I'm not against throwing a little arbitrary weird on aliens, but the whole deal seems a stretch.
it's an interesting bit of In My Universe color/fluff, but it's a little like 'and every tenth one is born with an accordion.'
fine, if you want to do that, but a bit twee.

You don't even need to go to "Hormones" - genetics alone can do it, provided it's a single gene trigger rather than a whole chromosome trigger.

There are at least 7 different gender determination methods in use on Earth. There are four different chromosomal methods (all m/f: ZZ/ZW, XY/XX, {YY,XY}/{WX,WY,XX} Haploid/Diploid), Temperature dependent, Hormone Dependent (several), gender genes without gender chromosomes (platypus), plus the non-stable gender of several species which change gender by age, by dominance, or by pheromonal triggers.

Some result in a theoretical 50-50 split (ZZ/ZW and XY/XX), but not all. But the theoretical split is almost never realized real world. (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/198/1/3.full - discusses the human 0.505:0.495 ratio)

Even then, in many species, fitness of the sperm is unequal between different gender chromosomes, and successful carriage to term as well (often in the opposite direction from sperm fitness), before accounting for the Trivers-Willard hypothesis. And then, many species have gender differentiated non-predated infantile mortality, as well as different predated infant mortality, and also different adolescent mortality by gender.

 

[Ref00000]

I never cited 'mass deaths'. I've always just worked with the assumption that with over a thousand systems in the Hireate, and stuff like the Glorious Empire out on the fringes, combining that with a vigoriously aggressive 'coming of age' and dueling tradition culture, even without resorting to 'mass casualty' events there are plenty of opportunities for a male Aslan to get themselves killed.
I also incorporate a 'heavy paw' by the females in MTU.
If a male wants to get the approval of a clan to breed, the upper caste females, esp. those who are the Aslan eq. of 'nuns', they had better toe the line set by The Sisters (I use the phrase 'Terrible Aunties' as the literal anglic phrase in game). {I refer to the females who opt for control of money and power in lieu of every marrying. these ladies are utterly canon, and structural 'must' punch above their weight by logic.}
in other words 'They' decide who get ships. sure, you can buck their control, but you'll be joining the very high risk segment of youth who try and carve a 'new order' with their dewclaws.

 

[Ref00000]

as for 'speaking with authority' about 'aliens'?
substitute 'dwarves', 'elves', 'orcs' whatever.
It's done all the time, in all aspects of speculative fiction.
If I've spent the better part of three decades reading, running, designing, writing about, adjudicating 'canon' disputes about 'this nerd stuff', and backing it with a solid, continuing education in the sciences, math, and such, I'll without a trace of irony describe myself as 'qualified enough' to discuss the fictious as if it's real.
that sort of 'speculation' is done, every day, in many fields, in order to further communal knowledge and productive discussion of many abstract concepts.
I'm not biting into that, Ranke. It's a 'standard deal' that's as core to the RPG hobby as dice and character sheets.
given the depth of culture, lingusitics, and deep background Traveller has always presented, a little handwavium goes a LONG way, and is certainly grounded in sufficient backstory and development in depth over time to be accepted as 'fact' for the purposes of discussion. anything other than that is just agitation for it's own sake.

 

[rancke]

I never cited 'mass deaths'.

Losing two thirds of the males in each generation IS mass death.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

A possible way of handling things is to assume that those males who fail the 'rite of passage' are no longer considered male and thus enter into 'female' professions. After all, in DGP's Solomani and Aslan book, those who fail the rite of passage are dropped immediately to soc-2 (iirc). Males in female professions are treated as females

So if half the males fail, and are then dropped to soc=2 and made to enter traditionally female careers, then the social sex ratio would be 3:1 females:male even though the physical is 1:1

I just don't t feel that any of the non Fisher-1:1 ratios don't fit with the descriptions of Aslan culture or society, especially when considering parental investment in the young. It implies that the females would be the sex that is more discriminating with choosing a mate.

But there just isn't that much information concerning females.

 

[Ref00000]

FreeTrav, I'm probably reading other posters tone into what I'm perceiving as 'conversational tempo' here, and I wanted to make a point that might not be clear.
I'm in no way saying 'you can't do it that way' {the Femule hypothisis, for arguments sake}.
I'm encouraging sceptical thought around the "what would the long term repercussions be, In Your Universe {and by extension someone who uses your version, it's a given that this forum is a place for others who, for whatever reason want to run Traveller, but not overthink every aspect of a Universe, are going to harvest ideas}
The 'dirty secret' of a 'hidden gender' seems rife with potentially explosive plot-fodder. Aslan have had 'advanced science' for millennia, just like the other Major races, and the 'secret' is (as you presented it, IMO) socially a bit beyond "It is an Aslan thing. We do not discuss it with outsiders."eviscerates questioner if pressed further.
It's a very interesting wrinkle that seems a simple thing, on the surface, but looking deeper? a big, big, deal.

 

[Ref00000]

Losing two thirds of the males in each generation IS mass death.


Hans

Not as such.
There's a big difference between a Hundred Thousand Warriors ending in Glorious Battle spread across ten years and a thousand systems, and the same number going out in an Atomic fireball in ten seconds.
Combining the Aslan 'Shrine in every ship' cultural norm and a strong central structure belief in reincarnation? You get the feel for the Hierate not missing those culled by their own inability to control their urges, or obey their betters.
Arguably, it's a fine mechanism to ensure that the males who do get to breed are pretty fine specimens.

 

[Ref00000]

That's a darn good point, Ishmael!
I had not considered the "quoted ratio includes cultural females as well as biological ones."
neat and tidy.

A possible way of handling things is to assume that those males who fail the 'rite of passage' are no longer considered male and thus enter into 'female' professions. After all, in DGP's Solomani and Aslan book, those who fail the rite of passage are dropped immediately to soc-2 (iirc). Males in female professions are treated as females

So if half the males fail, and are then dropped to soc=2 and made to enter traditionally female careers, then the social sex ratio would be 3:1 females:male even though the physical is 1:1

I just don't t feel that any of the non Fisher-1:1 ratios don't fit with the descriptions of Aslan culture or society, especially when considering parental investment in the young. It implies that the females would be the sex that is more discriminating with choosing a mate.

But there just isn't that much information concerning females.

 

[rancke]

Not as such.

Yes, as such.

World War I is known for the many problems the loss of so many soldiers caused. Yet the United Kingdom "only" lost between 1.79% and 2.2% of the population. Call it 4% of the male population. And you're talking about a loss of 66% of the male population.

There's a big difference between a Hundred Thousand Warriors ending in Glorious Battle spread across ten years and a thousand systems, and the same number going out in an Atomic fireball in ten seconds.

Indeed there is. One significant difference is that in those ten years billions of new Aslans have been born.

To take an example, Kuzu has a population of 7 billion. IIRC Aslans have a lifespan slight shorter than that of humans, but let's call it 70 years anyway. That means that given a 1:1 birth ratio, and simplifying the numbers a bit, 50 million male Aslans would be born on Kuzu every year. To get the 1:3 ratio, 33 million Aslan males have to die every year on Kuzu alone.

And you can multiply that by, what, a factor 1000 for the rest of the Hierate?

That's mass death all right.


Hans