And they called it puppy love (Affection in Vargr)

[Grav_Moped]

In canon, do Vargr have an emotion similar to "love" in Humaniti, aside from the effects of Charisma?

I'd assume they do, but how does it manifest? Charisma covers most of the "the object of my affections has desirable personality traits" territory (respect, admiration, and so forth) in the low-to-high direction. But how does it work the other way -- is it just utility value, or can there be more to it than "what have you done for me lately"?

There are clearly familial bonds that can outweigh the force of Charisma to some extent. And, of course physical and sexual attraction (which might also fit into the "what have you done for me lately?" category if you're cynical...)

 

[Condottiere]

Hard to say.

I don't notice human females cheeks turning red anymore, to indicate they're ready.

So, the Vargr may have evolved beyond going into heat.

However, bribing and peacocking may still apply.

 

[bookwyrm]

In canon, do Vargr have an emotion similar to "love" in Humaniti, aside from the effects of Charisma?

I just did a little bit searching to see what others have said or is known on this subject. It looks like it's possible, but left up to the GM & Players on how far/much it could be developed.

Personally, I can see that in Vargr, Love & Charisma can go hand in hand or oppose each other. A tough love kind of situation in a positive or negative flavor, depending on how the Love & Charisma line up with/against each other.

Another thought, for Traveller at any rate, is Love universal or dependent on a Races 'upbringing'. A race might have affection for each of their own, but from an outsiders viewpoint, not have anything that looks like love at all from the outsiders perspective. Just look at Hivers, but not too closely.

Another thing to consider, the original Vargr stock are from Terra that was heavily modified by an alien race, so their 'love culture' could be anything from similar to humans from Terra to something we don't understand or anything in between.

 

[Spinward Flow]

And then there's the Frenemies problem.
You HATE them ... but you still WANT them.

The simplest answer is that Vargr experience something "akin to love" ... but it's not exactly the "same kind of love" that humaniti are so prone to pontificate upon (at length, and in so much Fan Fiction™). So similar, but not the same ... which then makes "translation" from one language to the other (various Vargr dialects into Galanglic, for example) a bit of a minefield due to subtle nuances being lost in that translation when talking about the subject.

It looks like it's possible, but left up to the GM & Players on how far/much it could be developed.

This is honestly the best possible solution.
It avoids the potential "square peg/round hole" type problem of trying to "translate" feelings between alien cultures/species.

It also leave the "minefield ACTIVE" of the topic, such that you can have assumptions blow up in people's faces (preferably to advance the development of characters and their relationships).

 

[Grav_Moped]

Another thing to consider, the original Vargr stock are from Terra that was heavily modified by an alien race, so their 'love culture' could be anything from similar to humans from Terra to something we don't understand or anything in between.

My take on that is that they were uplifted to be analogous to humans but with a "wolf" culture instead -- so they would be as close to "wolf" (old stereotype because outdated science) as practical given their mods to have k-strategy reproduction (fewer offspring, better parenting).

Humans do Empires (top-down organization). Vargr do Packs (bottom-up organization). They can share and/or compete for the same resources, but can't interbreed and thereby dilute that distinction.

Edits: duck my phone's autocorrect.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The ideal Vargr relationship is between partners whose Charisma is the same or within 1 point of each other. Over time, in this case the lower-CHA partner will converge on the higher-CHA partner's status. If the gap is larger, they'll both tend to converge on their average (high status decreases, low status increases) over time.

Families generally share a CHA level (with some exceptions), and interact with other family units based on that, rather than individual CHA status.

Couples don't usually spare each other in personal conversation ("Anything you can do, I can do better" really is better in the original Gvegh). (Link: Youtube) This is not hostile; indeed, it's affection despite appearances. It's practice for status contestation outside the couple/family rather than being intra-relationship status contestation. Notably, it demonstrates desire for approval from one's partner. If you don't try to promote yourself -- even if it's at their slight expense (as long as it's not over-the-top, of course) -- your significant other might start to believe that you don't care what they think of you.

Using Charisma (across a significant Charisma differential) to obtain sexual favors is considered tacky -- the sort of thing a desperate teenager would resort to. This has a corrosive effect on Charisma, as it demonstrates unwillingness to seek out a suitably challenging relationship.

Using sex (particularly involving exploitation by/of a partner being in heat) to establish a relationship with a partner of significantly higher Charisma tends to reflect poorly on the person doing so.

Note that IMTU being in heat (or a male being exposed to the associated pheromones) is merely distracting, rather than anything resembling an instinctual compulsion. It can be controlled by medication at TL-6 and up -- and usually is at those TLs. Pheromone dispersal can be controlled by feminine hygiene products at TL-2 and up (universally commercially available at TL-3 and up) -- and almost always is, in nearly all cultures.

 

[Condottiere]

Vargr try everything.

Though, it may involve glacial cultural and social changes.

To their perspective.

It may be based on selfishness, or perceived self interest, so a successful Vargr may decide to get a trophy partner.

 

[The Pakkrat]

I hold that love is universal but it experienced differently at different consciousness levels. Lemme ‘splain.
There’s divine love, where the sophont in question recognizes their own and others’ core anima, (the soul) and treats all others with a detached but potent love.
Then there’s mental love, where the sophont recognizes Mind and the Mind Realization in themselves and in others and loves on a mental format.
Then there’s causal love, possibly known as Tough Love where wisdom, memory and experience chime in and tell a sophont who to love and how according to the society they are born or hatched.
Then there’s emotional love that heartfelt love that is full of emotional passions both positive and negative where a sophont can allow this level to override logic of Mind, override social conditioning causal, and run carefree.
Then there’s ahem physical love, with or without procreation, where the above levels of love express on a format that can be detected by the senses.

In my Traveller universe, all sophonts, all beasts, all plants, and all minerals hold the above levels of love to lessening extent if they yet lack certain consciousness levels. A plant loves light and feeds it into photosynthesis. An animal loves its offspring but by instinct rather than through the Mind Realization and so doesn’t fathom why it loves. Two sophonts can break with traditions and fall in mortal condition love against the wishes of their families, Pack, community, culture, society. Emotional love. Two or more sophonts can express physical love without any of the above levels, just because they consent to such expression.

The Vargr are no different in the mortal condition when it comes to love and the experience of each of the above levels. If we decide that just because they’re aliens, still mortal, still fallible, that they do not love or love differently, then we set up a racist partition that sounds like…

“Well, they’re from <insert Other continent>, and they love differently than we do.”

This is the causal love level talking and it is biased to what society or culture raised the speaker.

As can be read, this is a touchy topic as it covers metaphysical aspects of any given sophont. If I’m the Referee at a table, then this is how I’ll adjudicate love, sophont species notwithstanding.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The Vargr are no different in the mortal condition when it comes to love and the experience of each of the above levels. If we decide that just because they’re aliens, still mortal, still fallible, that they do not love or love differently, then we set up a racist partition that sounds like…

“Well, they’re from <insert Other continent>, and they love differently than we do.”

This is the causal love level talking and it is biased to what society or culture raised the speaker.

As can be read, this is a touchy topic as it covers metaphysical aspects of any given sophont. If I’m the Referee at a table, then this is how I’ll adjudicate love, sophont species notwithstanding.

Good point -- and to some degree it's inherent in their existence within an RPG. They're either role-played by, or written as NPCs by, humans (mostly from the Western world). It would take active creative effort for them to not have, at their core, human traits.

On the other hand, there's the SF inclination to make them something other than "humans in alien-wolf costumes"; that is, to not just take the +1Dex/-1Str/-1End and play them as any other character, with occasional setting fluff/chrome tacked on -- because they are alien, and a few different kinds of alien at that. This suggests -- but does not mandate -- that they could have really odd ways of feeling and expressing affection.

My main question here was that since CHA (particularly from the lower-stat-upwards perspective) partially overlaps motivations for love as humans experience it, how that would affect the Vargr perception of and expression of love. You touched on a distinction that I may have missed (being neither a philosopher nor entirely neurotypical...). One can love another for having attractive/entertaining/pleasant/enlightening personality traits that are entirely separate from the leadership/authority/self-assurance traits that are subsumed into the CHA stat.

 

[Grav_Moped]

And then (as alluded to by @Spinward Flow) the cases where the draw of Charisma and the bonds of love are in conflict.

 

[Condottiere]

I suppose we could go to basics, as to what Vargr find attractive, in the opposite sex?

 

[Grav_Moped]

I suppose we could go to basics, as to what Vargr find attractive, in the opposite sex?

Varies by subspecies (and within them as well).

 

[Grav_Moped]

Varies by subspecies (and within them as well).

For example, the Irilitok Vargr (Trav Wiki) in the Julian Protectorate are described as follows:

Irilitok Vargr were specifically bred to serve humans. The observant Traveller can determine this by their friendly and cheerful disposition and their pleasing (to the human eye) physiognomy – big childlike eyes, short snouts, and a rather upright posture.

To other Irilitok, this would seem normal and attractive.

Many other Vargr subspecies would consider applying the German (old Solmani) word Qualzucht ("torture breeding") to what they'd view as hereditary cranial deformities, while old Solmani dog breeders would term it "brachycephaly" (short muzzle) and be concerned with the potential for breathing problems and susceptibility to ocular proptosis (deliberately not linking. Trigger Warning: body horror)

Likewise, the spotted fur (canon) or merle coloration (IMTU) of the Akumgeda Vargr is desirable to them, but might be viewed by other subspecies as akin to Vitiligo (patches of skin devoid of melanin -- the pop star Michael Jackson had it). (Link: wikipedia)

Blue Merle Border Collie (matches the canon description)
(Image credit: CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=513017)


Note that in real-world dogs a single copy of the merle gene randomly suppresses melanin across the coat, yeilding a coat that varies in coloration on a fine scale; two copies of the gene cause albinism from complete suppression of melanin production, and blindness and deafness due to this effect also causing malformation of eyes and inner-ear structure -- which fits the description of the Roth Thokken sub-species. The Roth Thokken, of course, would be outraged by describing their subspecies as being a product of genetic birth defects (and with their psionic skills, would kick your arse over it before you knew what happened).

 

[Condottiere]

By no means an expert on dog breeding, but working dogs and lap dogs get chosen for different traits, like low rider dachshunds.

It's the show dogs that usually end up with physical disabilities.

 

[Grav_Moped]

By no means an expert on dog breeding, but working dogs and lap dogs get chosen for different traits, like low rider dachshunds.

It's the show dogs that usually end up with physical disabilities.

The point I'm making is that Vargr subspecies/ethnic groups (Irlitok aside, as noted above) are the result of internal social selection, iterated over time. That is, the Vargr themselves chose their mates, over countless generations. Groups self-select for internal conformity (say, dark-haired Vargr pairing off with dark-haired partners), and eventually diverge from each other in appearance.

Dog breeding in the real world (well, the intentional side of it -- nature finds a way and all that) is a matter of unnatural selection. Humans decide what traits they want in the offspring, and pick breeding pairs to get them. One can hope they care about the health of the offspring beyond their marketability. Reputable ones do. All too many others... don't.

 

[Condottiere]

Since selection may be somewhat semi voluntary, outside of caste, there are likely cultural prohibitions established to prevent blatant genetic disabilities.

 

[coliver988]

Since selection may be somewhat semi voluntary, outside of caste, there are likely cultural prohibitions established to prevent blatant genetic disabilities.

pretty sure part of most marriage licenses in the US require a blood test to help show possible genetic issues should the couple decide to have children. I'd assume in 5000+ years (a) we may have at least reduced that possibility (though Traveller is pretty much anti-genetic mods, at least CT is) and (b) in the same 5000+ years genetic testing should be a lot better at higher TLs. Even for other species such as the Vargr.

Who knows - perhaps there is a Vargr Kahn with a really high charisma due to genetic manipulation.

 

[JimCook]

pretty sure part of most marriage licenses in the US require a blood test to help show possible genetic issues should the couple decide to have children. I'd assume in 5000+ years (a) we may have at least reduced that possibility (though Traveller is pretty much anti-genetic mods, at least CT is) and (b) in the same 5000+ years genetic testing should be a lot better at higher TLs. Even for other species such as the Vargr.

Most premarital blood tests were to look for STD such as syphilis. Some screening was done for certain conditions such as sickle cell anemia. I don't think any of them involved actual genetic screening. Most states have drop this requirement for marriage licenses.

With 5000 years of advances, the question will not be genetic testing so much as genetic treatment. of course Traveller allows for a wide range of possibilities.

 

[Condottiere]

Even with geneering eliminating genetic based disabilities, there still is the danger of inbreeding within packs and tight clans.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Even with geneering eliminating genetic based disabilities, there still is the danger of inbreeding within packs and tight clans.

Keep in mind that they're as intelligent as humans. They'll figure out the consequences and implement cultural-level solutions. Such solutions may appear unpleasant (like conquering one's neighbors and taking their women), but are things humans have done too.

Also, I expect the uplift process included some meddling with scents and instincts to minimize inbreeding. From canon, we know it included biological modifications to shift them from r-strategy reproduction (many offspring, low parental involvement) to K-strategy (few offspring, high parental involvement). Other collateral tweaks aren't unreasonable when you're doing your genetic engineering at TL-"deity".