Alternatives to jump or stutterwarp in your TU
- Thread starter MichaelL65
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A friend of mine once ran a Call of Cthulu cross genera game with space travel. Some of the big nasties had a shigoth drive... basically an enraged shigoth stored in a room full of pistons.
He never explained what they used for actual star travel... but the engine design was disturbing enough.
He never explained what they used for actual star travel... but the engine design was disturbing enough.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
"no... YOU tell the engine that you want more speed out of it. We've already lost half the engineering crew because of a tantrum..."
There is so much potential for this kind of thing. I am surprised that Chaosium or Pagan doesn't jump into SF...other than that Strange Aeons product and Michael's End Times...
So I guess that just leaves us Traveller players to take up the slack... Challenge was always good at coming up with Scientific Horror every October. But, has anyone else thought of using horror more. Perhaps, we can nudge the budding T20 authors, out there to create something really horrific and at the same time consistant with a Traveller-inspired future.
So I guess that just leaves us Traveller players to take up the slack... Challenge was always good at coming up with Scientific Horror every October. But, has anyone else thought of using horror more. Perhaps, we can nudge the budding T20 authors, out there to create something really horrific and at the same time consistant with a Traveller-inspired future.
mega-traveller
SOC-7
Tesseract Drives
Basically, very similar to Jump Drives, as it takes your current position, your target destination, and then bends space thru some higher dimensions and makes the actual distance between the two very close. I imagine the Manuever Drives actually transverse the Tesseract Tunnel, while the T-Drives do the bending.
Just an idea...
Basically, very similar to Jump Drives, as it takes your current position, your target destination, and then bends space thru some higher dimensions and makes the actual distance between the two very close. I imagine the Manuever Drives actually transverse the Tesseract Tunnel, while the T-Drives do the bending.
Just an idea...
Stormraven
SOC-10
Although I haven't used it yet, I had a thought about FTL travel a while back that was triggered by an old SF story (Not sure who wrote it) where a program had been created to make use of Hyperspace to circumvent the speed of light. Only trouble was, the speed of light was lower in Hyperspace.
Now, this comes at a tangent to my actual idea. Specifically, a universe of amazing density - a lot like jello. But it's inversely contiguous with our own. So one parsec in our universe equal X miles in that one. Of course, a standard thrust rocket wouldn't do very well in such a dense field, so the starships look a lot like submarines, even to propellers at the rear. At higher tech levels, those propellers would be energy, and miles across. You could even set the comparison so that it would be close to Jump speed, if you wanted.
Now, this comes at a tangent to my actual idea. Specifically, a universe of amazing density - a lot like jello. But it's inversely contiguous with our own. So one parsec in our universe equal X miles in that one. Of course, a standard thrust rocket wouldn't do very well in such a dense field, so the starships look a lot like submarines, even to propellers at the rear. At higher tech levels, those propellers would be energy, and miles across. You could even set the comparison so that it would be close to Jump speed, if you wanted.
Lazar's drive is the Tesseract Drive of A Wrinkle in Time and is similar to the congruencies of Heinlein's Starman Jones.
I would rather borrow from an honest storyteller than Lazar. My great-great-grandfather was business partners with a Lazar. I only hope they aren't kin.
Dr Robert Forward once played with a multi-dimensional geometry where a charged object moves in one of these dimensions faster than light, maybe 1,000 C. If the dimensions could be rotated somehow...
The Alcubierre Warp drive is plausable, at least since van den Broek reworked the Geometry. This is not B.S. Do a Googel search for "van den Broek" and "warp drive". Since this is physics idea and not SF the details are not clear yet, but it could be very close to a CT jump drive.
I would rather borrow from an honest storyteller than Lazar. My great-great-grandfather was business partners with a Lazar. I only hope they aren't kin.
Dr Robert Forward once played with a multi-dimensional geometry where a charged object moves in one of these dimensions faster than light, maybe 1,000 C. If the dimensions could be rotated somehow...
The Alcubierre Warp drive is plausable, at least since van den Broek reworked the Geometry. This is not B.S. Do a Googel search for "van den Broek" and "warp drive". Since this is physics idea and not SF the details are not clear yet, but it could be very close to a CT jump drive.
The Alcubierre Warp Drive - which I had to use Uncle Bob's spelling for (thanks!) - has to be worked out as a practical concept first; one would have to figure out how to make it into an actual engine, with power plant, space vessel and vessel components in order to put a crewer on it to test it (let's put a woman on it just to freak the old conservative fogeys out
!).
How about a superluminal drive? How does this work? You create a wormhole opening in front of the ship. This wormhole is traveling at an infinite velocity toward the ship, but it can only travel a limited distance before decaying into nothing. This wormhole opening connects to another opening that's stationary but stays open for only an instant. The First wormhole opening swallows the spaceship in an instant. Since the velocity relative to the wormhole is conserved the stationary wormhole spews out the spaceship which is now traveling at infinite velocity. Basically what is happening is that the starship is trading its time dimension for a space dimension. From the perspective of the crew the ship takes exactly 1 year to travel exactly 1 light year through a Universe that appears frozen in time. No time passes in the external universe as the crew makes its journey. The distance that starship can travel depends on maintenence and consumables. A cold sleep can be used to pass the time on board ship, but time still passes on board ship. No piece of equipment including the spaceship can continue operation indefinitely. After about 5 years the starship needs an overhaul. This can sometimes be done with existing space parts and a mechanic while in superluminal space, but eventually it will have to visit a starport. The Superluminal drive can only be used twice and then must be replaced. they are modualar and not that expensive and more than one can be kept aboard ship, but they take up space and there is a limit to how many that can be stored. These factors limit the range of a superluminal starship and prevent the characters from traveling to the other end of the galaxy. Thus allowing the GM to prepare star systems ahead of time.
"Superluminal" is synonymous with FTL, so a more distinctive name would be useful. I like the "Infinity drive", but I think that has been used. This is a new one to me, though.
If I understand you, the near end of the wormhole is moving at infinite speed and the far end is stationary so the Starshp emerges at infinite speed. Since the wormhole is an artefact of normal space it will be limited to "C", moreover conservation of momentum will seriously slow it when you add the mass of the ship to the wormhole.
If you get by that, I still don't see how the ship can exist in normal space at infinite velocity.
But if you could accellerate a wormhole to near infinite velocities, why not accellerate the other end? Send it where you want to go, stop it, and step through. Instantaneous travel, limited by the stability of the wormhole and the pointing accuracy.
If I understand you, the near end of the wormhole is moving at infinite speed and the far end is stationary so the Starshp emerges at infinite speed. Since the wormhole is an artefact of normal space it will be limited to "C", moreover conservation of momentum will seriously slow it when you add the mass of the ship to the wormhole.
If you get by that, I still don't see how the ship can exist in normal space at infinite velocity.
But if you could accellerate a wormhole to near infinite velocities, why not accellerate the other end? Send it where you want to go, stop it, and step through. Instantaneous travel, limited by the stability of the wormhole and the pointing accuracy.
lightsenshi
SOC-12
You assume that the scientific understanding of spacetime is actually correct. Mathematically, it is possible for light to cross the universe in 20 years. (Don't ask me to prove it, I only know it can be done, not the mathematical tricks to do it)
"If I understand you, the near end of the wormhole is moving at infinite speed and the far end is stationary so the Starshp emerges at infinite speed. Since the wormhole is an artefact of normal space it will be limited to "C", moreover conservation of momentum will seriously slow it when you add the mass of the ship to the wormhole.
If you get by that, I still don't see how the ship can exist in normal space at infinite velocity."
It basically converts the entire ship to tachyons traveling at infinite speed. Infinite speed is the tachyon equivalent to stationary. So at whatever velocity the space ship is at when it activates the superluminal drive it is at an infinite velocity relative to that same velocity after it is activated. From the point of view of the stationary observer, the spaceship moving away at infinite velocity will appear to be moving away at "only" the speed of light. That is because the ship is at all points on it journey from activation of the superluminal drive to its reemergence back into normal space for that one instant. photons interact with it at that instant, but those photons only travel at the speed of light when heading back to the observer left behind. To him, the ship will appear to be moving away from him at the speed of light. Its an optical illusion. The ship is ghostlike when in this state, it can only interact with photons or other objects that were with it when it entered superluminal space. Superluminal space is otherwise like normal space. A superluminal spaceship can travel right through a subluminal planet with no ill effect to either the planet or the space ship. objects ahead of the superluminal space ship don't see it at all until after it passes. Faster than light travel is allowed by Einstein's theory of relativety. Certain FTL velocities are problematic since they allow for backwards time travel, but this is not the case if the ship is moving at infinite speed. If one were to exceed infinite velocity this would happen, but for a Traveller campaign this should not normally be allow to happen. Ship's that attempt this simply disappear from the Universe.
If you get by that, I still don't see how the ship can exist in normal space at infinite velocity."
It basically converts the entire ship to tachyons traveling at infinite speed. Infinite speed is the tachyon equivalent to stationary. So at whatever velocity the space ship is at when it activates the superluminal drive it is at an infinite velocity relative to that same velocity after it is activated. From the point of view of the stationary observer, the spaceship moving away at infinite velocity will appear to be moving away at "only" the speed of light. That is because the ship is at all points on it journey from activation of the superluminal drive to its reemergence back into normal space for that one instant. photons interact with it at that instant, but those photons only travel at the speed of light when heading back to the observer left behind. To him, the ship will appear to be moving away from him at the speed of light. Its an optical illusion. The ship is ghostlike when in this state, it can only interact with photons or other objects that were with it when it entered superluminal space. Superluminal space is otherwise like normal space. A superluminal spaceship can travel right through a subluminal planet with no ill effect to either the planet or the space ship. objects ahead of the superluminal space ship don't see it at all until after it passes. Faster than light travel is allowed by Einstein's theory of relativety. Certain FTL velocities are problematic since they allow for backwards time travel, but this is not the case if the ship is moving at infinite speed. If one were to exceed infinite velocity this would happen, but for a Traveller campaign this should not normally be allow to happen. Ship's that attempt this simply disappear from the Universe.
You still haven't discussed how you accellerate a wormhole to infinite velocity.
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
It basically converts the entire ship to tachyons traveling at infinite speed. Infinite speed is the tachyon equivalent to stationary. So at whatever velocity the space ship is at when it activates the superluminal drive it is at an infinite velocity relative to that same velocity after it is activated. From the point of view of the stationary observer, the spaceship moving away at infinite velocity will appear to be moving away at "only" the speed of light.
Tachyons are indetectable (except by other tachyons), so that's mute
Faster than light travel is allowed by Einstein's theory of relativety. Certain FTL velocities are problematic since they allow for backwards time travel, but this is not the case if the ship is moving at infinite speed.
Which velocities? AFAIK any FTL in normal space has a possibility of time travel. Infinite speed may be an exception.
If one were to exceed infinite velocity this would happen,
Are you proposing that the difference between aleph 1 and aleph 2 infinities has some meaning in this geometry? To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "This word 'infinity,' I think it does not mean what you think it means."
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
It basically converts the entire ship to tachyons traveling at infinite speed. Infinite speed is the tachyon equivalent to stationary. So at whatever velocity the space ship is at when it activates the superluminal drive it is at an infinite velocity relative to that same velocity after it is activated. From the point of view of the stationary observer, the spaceship moving away at infinite velocity will appear to be moving away at "only" the speed of light.
Tachyons are indetectable (except by other tachyons), so that's mute
Faster than light travel is allowed by Einstein's theory of relativety. Certain FTL velocities are problematic since they allow for backwards time travel, but this is not the case if the ship is moving at infinite speed.
Which velocities? AFAIK any FTL in normal space has a possibility of time travel. Infinite speed may be an exception.
If one were to exceed infinite velocity this would happen,
Are you proposing that the difference between aleph 1 and aleph 2 infinities has some meaning in this geometry? To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "This word 'infinity,' I think it does not mean what you think it means."
You don't accelerate the wormhole to infinite velocity. The wormhole itself bridges the velocity gap between the start velocity and infinite velocity. The wormhole itself is also not stable. It only lasts long enough to transition the star ship from normal space to superluminal. Both ends of the wormhole have zero kinetic energy relative to each other. For a tachyon, zero kinetic energy means to travel at infinite velocity. If a tachyon has a decay rate, it duration is measured in the distance it travels rather than in how long it lasts. For faster than light particles time is measured in distance traveled.
It could also be that there just aren't any Tachyons in the universe to detect. The superluminal drive would create them. Tachyons are a category of particle rather than a specific particle per se. Baryons are particles that move slower than light such as atoms. other than the property of velocity, baryons and tachyons could be identical. There's no reason why tachyons couldn't be found clumped together in the for of starships.
This FTL drive seems to be consistent for gaming purposes. I'm not going to argue whether it is really possible. Some would say that the possibly of time travel alone would indicate its impossibility, but there are other ways to preclude grandfather paradoxes than just to have FTL travel impossible. If one wishes to run a Time Traveller campaign, then the referee can allow time travel with this drive, but for a regular Space Opera campaign I'd disallow regular time travel. As an aside, to compensate for the instantaneous nature of this FTL drive, I'd increase the minimum safe jump radius from large masses so that it takes at least 2.5 days of average continuous acceleration, say at 3 g in order to activate the Superluminal drive. this would make the externally observed travel time comperable to the Jump drive as used in Traveller.
Two "handwaves" I did not see mentioned yet, although they probably are the same concepts with different words.
One is the MacroQuantum hole or effect. Similar to other descriptions of worm holes, this preposes that certain FTL effects at the quantum level can be expanded in scale creating a zero space which can be transited.
Similar in handwavium, is the Coordinated Quantum move technology, where all the atoms and energy of a ship is put through a series of quantum jumps in perfect coordination.
I don't use either but have considered running a campaign with dozens or more.
Others mentioned the Harrington universe, by my reading there are 3 or 4 FTL technologies not just two.
If your wanting to make up variations (as opposed to just explain/confine the Traveller jump drive)
you can manipulate energy costs, drive cost,drive size (max and min) , ship size (max or min) , reliability in achieving the correct transit, transit distancts, transit time, results of failures, effects on crew, special conditions (like 10 diameters...) needed, fuel requirements, external time effects, material effects...
Each of these attributes can be turned into lists, and the we have the Drive Character Generation system...
Oh, the found a low energy,cheap drive that fits in a pinkie ring and can move a planet over any distance, good every time in seconds of character lfie but the transitions takes a billion years external time and kills all the inhabitants.
That reminds me of another good SF variation, the space drive is really a time machine that takes you to before or after there is a fully expanded universe, move an inch there, pop back into current time and your 3 parsecs away.
One is the MacroQuantum hole or effect. Similar to other descriptions of worm holes, this preposes that certain FTL effects at the quantum level can be expanded in scale creating a zero space which can be transited.
Similar in handwavium, is the Coordinated Quantum move technology, where all the atoms and energy of a ship is put through a series of quantum jumps in perfect coordination.
I don't use either but have considered running a campaign with dozens or more.
Others mentioned the Harrington universe, by my reading there are 3 or 4 FTL technologies not just two.
If your wanting to make up variations (as opposed to just explain/confine the Traveller jump drive)
you can manipulate energy costs, drive cost,drive size (max and min) , ship size (max or min) , reliability in achieving the correct transit, transit distancts, transit time, results of failures, effects on crew, special conditions (like 10 diameters...) needed, fuel requirements, external time effects, material effects...
Each of these attributes can be turned into lists, and the we have the Drive Character Generation system...
Oh, the found a low energy,cheap drive that fits in a pinkie ring and can move a planet over any distance, good every time in seconds of character lfie but the transitions takes a billion years external time and kills all the inhabitants.
That reminds me of another good SF variation, the space drive is really a time machine that takes you to before or after there is a fully expanded universe, move an inch there, pop back into current time and your 3 parsecs away.
I think the thing to realize here is that FTL is fantasy....regardless of all the speculative theories that may currently exist in Physics; they are just that, speculative.
In fact, there are a lot of pieces of Traveller technology that make it more sci-fantasy instead of sci-fiction; but all of them have been discussed again and again on other threads, and my post here isn't an attempt to re-hash them.
Instead, I'm building on a comment made in an earlier post about different methods of FTL travel. I see no reason why there can't be co-existing FTL technologies, each derivative of the peculiarities of the species that developed them.
In fact, I don’t see any reason why FTL types are progressed through as technology increases. I’ve always had a problem with the tech tables as being 100 years per advanced TL, while the 20th Century occupies 3 or 4 TL alone. I think history shows that technological advancement progresses at a rate by which the time between each benchmark advance decreases. Heck, already the tech of the 70s and the future predictions that existed then have been blown away in a lot of ways.
I’d think that perhaps the earliest method of FTL would be those types that rely initially on naturally occurring phenomena. This could either be through some hypothetical and albeit fantastical ‘discrepancy’ in Space-Time. This could be progressed to an attempt to manually duplicate said discrepancy. The knowledge gained in those endeavors could then be used to create an all together different method of travel.
Perhaps something akin to a ‘space whirlpool’ <insert techno-talk on how/why here> and then as technology progresses the effort to manually create said whirlpool. Then, again, as tech progresses and scientific knowledge excels the realization that the whirlpool isn’t needed at all.
Or, better yet, something more akin to the how oceanic travel on this planet ensued. Currents exist in nature and when man took to water he made use of those currents to travel where they too him. In fact, many speculate this mode of travel was what populated the Pacific Islands.
If we precede from the purely wistful thought that nature (i.e. the universe) exists in such a way that once the ‘secret’ is discovered things are made easy. Take flight for example. Man had always dreamed of it. But, it seemed impossible and improbable. Even when balloons and other LTA craft were developed HTA was deemed impossible by most. But, once the ‘secrets’ were discovered it was actually quite simple and has now become common place.
So…what is this rambling point getting to?
I think what I’m trying to say is that 1) I think FTL travel will be easy and commonplace once the ‘secret’ is found; not though any scientific knowledge but from a believe in how the Universe works. And, that, 2) I think that there will and can be any number of different ways to achieve FTL.
Some FTL methods I’ve seen employed in the 20+ years I’ve been playing traveler:
1. Jump Engines don’t need fuel, just time to recharge
2. Jump Engines use Fuel Rods instead of ‘gas’ which require the toxic rods to be replaced after X jumps.
3. I’ve seen where the Jump number is treated as the speed of the ship either in LY per x time or Parsecs per x time
4. I even had one GM that used the tables, but they were called Warp Drives and the tables were expanded to J-9 (CT book 2). He ‘star trek’ ized the space stuff
5. I’ve seen (and run myself) games were there was no FTL and travel was via Star Gates. Ship designs were turned into hulking things where fuel and jump engines weren’t needed….a lot of space to pack stuff into your ship…
6. I’ve run a campaign that was local to a single system, all at TL9, with some modified rules for rockets and gravity and life-support….it proved as exciting as any FTL game I ever ran and my players still talk about it to this day as ‘feeling’ like they were in space.
Currently, I’m intrigued with the method of travel used in the Freelancer game and have been thinking how the ‘Trade Lanes’ method of accelerated travel can be implemented into a Traveller type setting……
Ramble mode off
In fact, there are a lot of pieces of Traveller technology that make it more sci-fantasy instead of sci-fiction; but all of them have been discussed again and again on other threads, and my post here isn't an attempt to re-hash them.
Instead, I'm building on a comment made in an earlier post about different methods of FTL travel. I see no reason why there can't be co-existing FTL technologies, each derivative of the peculiarities of the species that developed them.
In fact, I don’t see any reason why FTL types are progressed through as technology increases. I’ve always had a problem with the tech tables as being 100 years per advanced TL, while the 20th Century occupies 3 or 4 TL alone. I think history shows that technological advancement progresses at a rate by which the time between each benchmark advance decreases. Heck, already the tech of the 70s and the future predictions that existed then have been blown away in a lot of ways.
I’d think that perhaps the earliest method of FTL would be those types that rely initially on naturally occurring phenomena. This could either be through some hypothetical and albeit fantastical ‘discrepancy’ in Space-Time. This could be progressed to an attempt to manually duplicate said discrepancy. The knowledge gained in those endeavors could then be used to create an all together different method of travel.
Perhaps something akin to a ‘space whirlpool’ <insert techno-talk on how/why here> and then as technology progresses the effort to manually create said whirlpool. Then, again, as tech progresses and scientific knowledge excels the realization that the whirlpool isn’t needed at all.
Or, better yet, something more akin to the how oceanic travel on this planet ensued. Currents exist in nature and when man took to water he made use of those currents to travel where they too him. In fact, many speculate this mode of travel was what populated the Pacific Islands.
If we precede from the purely wistful thought that nature (i.e. the universe) exists in such a way that once the ‘secret’ is discovered things are made easy. Take flight for example. Man had always dreamed of it. But, it seemed impossible and improbable. Even when balloons and other LTA craft were developed HTA was deemed impossible by most. But, once the ‘secrets’ were discovered it was actually quite simple and has now become common place.
So…what is this rambling point getting to?
I think what I’m trying to say is that 1) I think FTL travel will be easy and commonplace once the ‘secret’ is found; not though any scientific knowledge but from a believe in how the Universe works. And, that, 2) I think that there will and can be any number of different ways to achieve FTL.
Some FTL methods I’ve seen employed in the 20+ years I’ve been playing traveler:
1. Jump Engines don’t need fuel, just time to recharge
2. Jump Engines use Fuel Rods instead of ‘gas’ which require the toxic rods to be replaced after X jumps.
3. I’ve seen where the Jump number is treated as the speed of the ship either in LY per x time or Parsecs per x time
4. I even had one GM that used the tables, but they were called Warp Drives and the tables were expanded to J-9 (CT book 2). He ‘star trek’ ized the space stuff
5. I’ve seen (and run myself) games were there was no FTL and travel was via Star Gates. Ship designs were turned into hulking things where fuel and jump engines weren’t needed….a lot of space to pack stuff into your ship…
6. I’ve run a campaign that was local to a single system, all at TL9, with some modified rules for rockets and gravity and life-support….it proved as exciting as any FTL game I ever ran and my players still talk about it to this day as ‘feeling’ like they were in space.
Currently, I’m intrigued with the method of travel used in the Freelancer game and have been thinking how the ‘Trade Lanes’ method of accelerated travel can be implemented into a Traveller type setting……
Ramble mode off