Alternatives to jump or stutterwarp in your TU

[MichaelL65]

This has always been something of a pet peave of mine, as jump-drive seemed to be pulled out of thin air.

What alternatives has anyone used to jump and how did they work? I've seen a few posts on borrowing stutterwarp from 2300AD, but I was curious if anyone had adapted other FTL technologies. Hyperspace (Staw Wars), Warp-drive (Star Trek), B5 version of jump, maybe even Spelljamming

, or something of your own?

Be sure to explain how you think it works!

 

[Father Fletch]

Alderson Drive. This interstellar space drive is based on the discovery that instantaneous travel is possible between any two "adjacent" stars, if a ship is located at the correct "Alderson Point". Thus the problem of travel between star systems is reduced to the problem of travel within star systems. (Lifted from http://www.chronology.org/noframes/pournelle/timeline.html )
This is also similar in effect to the jump drive in Battletech. In that you have to get REALLY far out of the gravity well to jump. So far that CT jump is the equivalent of jumping while in port. In BT there are usually intersystem transit ships that go back and forth from the main world to the Jump ships, which NEVER enter the atmosphere.
The particular hand waves for each are not as important as the effect, which is that you have to jump in a limited series of connections, like in Harrington, or Vorkosigan universes. This makes for limited entry and exit points within a system, building spatial chokepoints for military concentrations.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Father Fletch:

<snip>
The particular hand waves for each are not as important as the effect, which is that you have to jump in a limited series of connections, like in Harrington, or Vorkosigan universes. This makes for limited entry and exit points within a system, building spatial chokepoints for military concentrations.

Actually the HH universe uses two forms of FTL travel. The terminal junctions allow for fast travel between two points, but a slower form of FTL is available if and when needed to travel to systems beyond the junctions.

I've done some tinkering with warp drives in place of jump drives. For some reason I always considered warp to be faster than jump. After looking at the numbers I was surprised to find I was wrong. Jump-1 equates out to about Warp 4.5 and Jump-6 is around Warp 8. I'm not sure how much the ability to 'drop out of warp' would transform the shape of say the Imperium though.

Hunter

 

[William]

Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Father Fletch:

<snip>
The particular hand waves for each are not as important as the effect, which is that you have to jump in a limited series of connections, like in Harrington, or Vorkosigan universes. This makes for limited entry and exit points within a system, building spatial chokepoints for military concentrations.

Actually the HH universe uses two forms of FTL travel. The terminal junctions allow for fast travel between two points, but a slower form of FTL is available if and when needed to travel to systems beyond the junctions.

I've done some tinkering with warp drives in place of jump drives. For some reason I always considered warp to be faster than jump. After looking at the numbers I was surprised to find I was wrong. Jump-1 equates out to about Warp 4.5 and Jump-6 is around Warp 8. I'm not sure how much the ability to 'drop out of warp' would transform the shape of say the Imperium though.

Hunter </font>[/QUOTE]I've always felt that the Stutterwarp was the best of the alternatives - it's fairly quick, but you have the 7.x lightyear limit. This gives a universe with chokepoints (though fewer that when the game was written - we know there are many more "brown dwarfs" than we used to. Still, it would make an interesting explaination for the origional "poor" jump drives of both the solomani and the hivers. Especially when you remember how the hiver drives self-destructed...

Just a thought...

William
(edit - yes, I saw the title. I still think stutter is the best of the alternates. It makes keeoing the "Traveller" feel possible. ST style warp doesn't to me.)

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by William:
(edit - yes, I saw the title. I still think stutter is the best of the alternates. It makes keeoing the "Traveller" feel possible. ST style warp doesn't to me.)

Oh I agree, it certainly isn't anything that would be introduced into the OTU. I just like to tinker with stats and rules mechanics

Hunter

 

[Ellros]

Originally posted by Father Fletch:
Alderson Drive. This interstellar space drive is based on the discovery that instantaneous travel is possible between any two "adjacent" stars, if a ship is located at the correct "Alderson Point". Thus the problem of travel between star systems is reduced to the problem of travel within star systems. (Lifted from http://www.chronology.org/noframes/pournelle/timeline.html )
This is also similar in effect to the jump drive in Battletech. In that you have to get REALLY far out of the gravity well to jump. So far that CT jump is the equivalent of jumping while in port. In BT there are usually intersystem transit ships that go back and forth from the main world to the Jump ships, which NEVER enter the atmosphere.
The particular hand waves for each are not as important as the effect, which is that you have to jump in a limited series of connections, like in Harrington, or Vorkosigan universes. This makes for limited entry and exit points within a system, building spatial chokepoints for military concentrations.

Pournelle's Falkenberg's Legion series uses Alderson drives and points, but they are not really detailed. But it does mention they have to travel quite a ways out before they can make the transition.

 

[Skylinkdave]

Originally posted by MichaelL65:
This has always been something of a pet peave of mine, as jump-drive seemed to be pulled out of thin air.

What alternatives has anyone used to jump and how did they work? I've seen a few posts on borrowing stutterwarp from 2300AD, but I was curious if anyone had adapted other FTL technologies. Hyperspace (Staw Wars), Warp-drive (Star Trek), B5 version of jump, maybe even Spelljamming

, or something of your own?

Be sure to explain how you think it works!

I'm surprised no one has suggested the Lazar drive (as detailed in Bob Lazar's video "The Lazar Tape"). This is a fairly simple and small device, not actually a "drive." It uses highly amplified and very tightly focused gravity waves to bend the fabric of space. One chooses where one would like to go, and the computer works out the details of how far and in which direction to "project" the gravity wave. The drive bends space so that your destination is brought to you, then once released, you are instantaneously where you want to be. Since the ship never actually moves, none of Einstein's theories of Relativity are violated.

For more information, I suggest viewing Lazar's video - if you can find it. If not, you can Google for numerous websites that summarize Lazar's tape. I make no assertions as to whether it actually works or not; I'm just putting it out there as a device for use in SF games. Either way, it's a neat idea.

Dave

 

[Nurd_boy]

has anyone read the novels of David Brins Uplift universe? (startide rising, upliftwar, brightness reef, infinities shore, etc )

in the later novels he creates not just one or two FTL systems but DOZENS...it's just each faster means gets more dangerous to use...

there is one where the ship enters a differnt layer of reality, AS something, moves (or runs) to a point, then re-enters our reality....imagine, your ship enters this 'reality' as a mouse on a carpet in a room (giant furniture and all)...has to scurry across the floor to the mouse hole to reimmerge at your destination...the danger, your attactked by rats!!! or a vacuumn cleaner, a cat, etc....

the reality is partly psionic and creates itself based on the mind of the pilot....

cool books to IMHO

 

[CarlP]

Nurd_boy,

Just as an FYI, the re-release of GURPS_UPLIFT is in the works, due out next spring or summer. I've already asked my local hobby shop to get me a copy. I'm hoping to mine it for some really useful ideas for MTU.

Carl

 

[Nurd_boy]

Originally posted by CarlP:
Nurd_boy,

Just as an FYI, the re-release of GURPS_UPLIFT is in the works, due out next spring or summer. I've already asked my local hobby shop to get me a copy. I'm hoping to mine it for some really useful ideas for MTU.

Carl

the uplift universe is my favorite series, glad to hear its coming back, only problem is.....I don't play GURPS.

 

[millican]

Iain M. Banks' culture universe used a version of FTL drive that was interesting. In the Banks' culture universe, the universe was bounded from alternate universes by energy fields. Black holes / white holes fed matter from that universe into the energy field. FTL travel was accomplished by shifting from real space of the universe to a nul space between the fabric of real space and the energy field or grid. Movement was a process of moving across the energy grid via a drive or "focuser". This would equate to tires on a car. Such that the better the focuser, the better the grip on the energy grid and the faster one moved. I believe the energy needed to do this was drawn from the grid itself. One of the more interesting malfunctions was that should a focuser "overload" or somehow fail one could get sucked down to the energy grid. The major problem for Traveller universes is that:
1.) I think it would work a lot like warp, with the problems described by my colleagues above and with which I agree;
2.) Banks' culture universe gets so advanced beyond TL 15 that ships move at kilo-lights (100 light years per hour) plus. This blows the whole scale out of proportion. However, you could link TL to focuser technology and seriously reduce the speed and increase the chance of a malfunction / mean time between failures such that it becomes workable. For more information, I recommend Banks' "Consider Phlebas" for an excellent description of the drives in action, and "Excession" for a description of the real space / energy grid relationship.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Nurd_boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CarlP:
Nurd_boy,

Just as an FYI, the re-release of GURPS_UPLIFT is in the works, due out next spring or summer. I've already asked my local hobby shop to get me a copy. I'm hoping to mine it for some really useful ideas for MTU.

Carl

the uplift universe is my favorite series, glad to hear its coming back, only problem is.....I don't play GURPS. </font>[/QUOTE]Now's a good time to start playing it then, isn't it?

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Dave:
I'm surprised no one has suggested the Lazar drive (as detailed in Bob Lazar's video "The Lazar Tape"). This is a fairly simple and small device, not actually a "drive." It uses highly amplified and very tightly focused gravity waves to bend the fabric of space. One chooses where one would like to go, and the computer works out the details of how far and in which direction to "project" the gravity wave. The drive bends space so that your destination is brought to you, then once released, you are instantaneously where you want to be. Since the ship never actually moves, none of Einstein's theories of Relativity are violated.

For more information, I suggest viewing Lazar's video - if you can find it. If not, you can Google for numerous websites that summarize Lazar's tape. I make no assertions as to whether it actually works or not; I'm just putting it out there as a device for use in SF games. Either way, it's a neat idea.

Dave

I used Lazar's 'alien tech' for my own sci-fi campaign (another good description of it can be found in Timothy Good's "Alien Liaison" UFO book). I just added a limit in that the further you jump, the greater the gravitational field generated at the ship by its ship's arrival at your destination. Effectively, the mass of the ship skyrockets momentarily as you arrive - this causes structural stress on the ship and its occupants (and also creates a gravitational anomaly in space that can be detected by grav sensors). Over shortish distances (a few parsecs) all you need to survive this are some comfy g-couches. Over longer distances, you need more extensive protection and sturdier spacecraft. Over very long distances, your occupants may die as a result of their vastly increased mass (bones break, ribcages implode, etc). Over VERY long distances, your ship might implode too.

 

[CarlP]

I don't play GURPS.

I don't play GURPS, either. But I think their books are excellent support material. I've got quite a few, and I'm not shy about buying more if it's something I'm interested in. I have GURPS basic rules, so I can convert any rules I need to. And the background information is generic enough that it will work for just about any game system. Don't let it being a GURPS reference book stop you from checking this one out--especially if you really like the universe!

 

[Nurd_boy]

I know the GURPS support books are good..heck, if I bought ALL the ones I'm interested in, SJG wouldn't need to ship to FLGS....but,$$$ limits what I can have so I have to be VERY choosey...

(hmmm, I don't NEED to pay rent or bills, I could live in a cardboard box under the freeway with all my game stuff !!!...yah, that's it !!!)

 

[esmdev]

I use a variant on hyperspace, at least in one campaign.

Within the campaign the Imperium found a technological gate of unknown origin which was a conduit into another dimension, one that is mostly filled with corrosive gasses and extremely hazardous gravity wells and a bad propensity for debris fields.

After some research (which was the focus of the campaign for awhile for the PCs) a ship was outfitted with the ability to shift back and forth. At first ships couldn't stay long because the hulls rapidly deteriorated and other problems popped up that caused lots of havoc with ship systems and navigation. As time progressed in the campaign, the PC scientists or assisting NPC scientists found a way around this problem or that problem.

After a time and a lot of mathematics (in game, I'm not that mean to my players) they found that they could travel from one place to another at a speed roughly twice that of maximum jump while using standard sublight engines in the other dimension.

In addition to the speed increase the PCs also found that there was a great deal to explore in this other dimension. Eventually, however, they discovered that they were really traveling through a parallel universe - but somehow smaller than there own. After a time they figured out the universe was rapidly imploding - rapidly from a big bang time line point of view, so nothing that they'd ever really need to care about.

At least three other races (from other dimensions entirely) use this form of travel as well, and one has attacked the Imperium more than once over the last hundred years, but their homeworld was never located (as it has been found to be in what is known as D3 (Dimension number 3).

The PCs have been part of the research project into this alternate dimension and potential new drive system from the start and it has led to some really great adventuring.

I didn’t really want to do much tweaking of the starship design system when I did this so I did a minor jury-rig. The engine is about the same size as a standard jump-2 engine. The fuel requirement is twice the standard requirement, half gets you in and the other half is needed to get you out. Weapons and such work about the same but, due to the previously mentioned hazards, sometimes weapons work less effectively than others.

Travel from system to system using this drive is possible however exit points within a system have proven difficult to predict because of the gravity influences along the way. Some times their ship has ended up far away from their intended exit point, but still in the correct system.

It was fun to develop and fun to game, and for one of my players (who has gamed with me since CT days and gotten a little bored with the norm) it was a new and different enough addition to get him excited about playing Traveller again.

Unfortunately I've not had a chance to run this particular campaign for over a year, but I have hopes that I'll get it going again soon.

 

[lightsenshi]

Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Father Fletch:

<snip>
The particular hand waves for each are not as important as the effect, which is that you have to jump in a limited series of connections, like in Harrington, or Vorkosigan universes. This makes for limited entry and exit points within a system, building spatial chokepoints for military concentrations.

Actually the HH universe uses two forms of FTL travel. The terminal junctions allow for fast travel between two points, but a slower form of FTL is available if and when needed to travel to systems beyond the junctions.

I've done some tinkering with warp drives in place of jump drives. For some reason I always considered warp to be faster than jump. After looking at the numbers I was surprised to find I was wrong. Jump-1 equates out to about Warp 4.5 and Jump-6 is around Warp 8. I'm not sure how much the ability to 'drop out of warp' would transform the shape of say the Imperium though.

Hunter </font>[/QUOTE]I am currently rereading the entire Harrington series. Let's see....

I recall the speed of 5000c being mentioned. This factors out to about 96 light years a week.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Lightsensei sez:
I am currently rereading the entire Harrington series. Let's see....

I recall the speed of 5000c being mentioned. This factors out to about 96 light years a week.
"Give us all your celery."
- Motto of the Treecat Liberation Army.
_________________________________________________
a parsec is 3.6 LY across..into 96 LY...comes to
1 week to do...looks like 26.6 parsecs! ZOOM-Zoom-zoom!
(All that gear heading makes me dizzy, I'm gonna go type some more)

 

[Nurd_boy]

If I remember the P. Anthony series 'bio of a space tyrant' they mentioned a large ring that when a ship entered it was transformed into energy and projected to another ring to be reintegrated....just don't miss that ring, otherwise your an energy beam shooting out into space for ever...that's how they defeated a group of vilians that was trying to kill them....

 

[Ben W Bell]

I like the Dune style psionic teleportation style of transportation. I believe this was actually touched upon in the TNE FF&S book.