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Alternate Ship Design Systems

"First, "all time is relative" is a common misconception of Relativity. That is no more correct than saying "all distance is relative." In truth, distance is absolute. You can't slow down below zero velocity. The distance perceived at rest (and corrected for intervening relativistic effects on measurement) is the true distance. Likewise time at rest is absolute, you can't make time go faster."
Zero velocity is relative to a frame of reference, such as another starship or a planet. One cannot speak of a velocity unless its in relation to something else. In the case of a traveller campaign velocity is relative to the average velocity of all the stars in the campaign area, but relative to a starship traveling 0.1c in relation to them all the stars are travelling 0.1c in relation to the starship. Both points of view carry equal weight as far as the laws of physics is concerned. Most stars may travel at a certian velocity, but that fact doesn't give the velocity any more weight to claim to be the at rest velocity than does a single starship traveling at 0.1c and this should hold true for FTL velocities if there is symmetry on both sides of the speed of light. The starship above starts at 100c when in engages its FTL drive. The drive is turned on for a short burst and then turned off. The starship is travelling 100c in relation to the planet it just left and it happens to be roughly the same velocity as most of the stars in the campaign area. the starship gets 25 hours to accelerate at 2-g or 50 hours to accelerate at 1-g before using up half its fuel supply.

To do the calculation you divide 1 by the velocity: 1/50c = 0.02c.

At a confortable 1-g of acceleration the starship can accelerate for 50 hours.:
50h x 60 x 60 = 180,000 seconds ship time
180,000 seconds x 10 meters per second = 1,800,000 m/sec.

0.01c = 3,000,000 m/sec

Now subtract the cange in velocity from 0.02c:
3,000,000 m/sec - 1,800,000 m/sec = 1,200,000 m/sec.

now convert it to a fraction of the speed of light.

1,200,000 m/sec / 300,000,000 m/sec = 0.004c.

Now flip it:

1 / 0.004c = 250c
 
For ease of reference here are my rocket substitutes for maneuver drives that I used in the above scout/courier example:

Maneuver Drives
Type_________________ TL Size____ Cost____ Fuel Usage
Fission (50 tons)____ 7_ 2 tons__ Mcr 6___ 2.9 tons/min
Fusion (50 tons)_____ 9_ 1.5 tons Mcr 4.5_ 7 tons/hour
Fusion (50 tons)_____ 13 1 ton___ Mcr 3___ 3.5 tons/hour
Fusion (50 tons)_____ 15 1 ton___ Mcr 3___ 0.18 tons/hour
Fusion (50 tons)_____ 16 1 ton___ Mcr 3___ 0.09 tons/hour
Antimatter (50 tons)_ 17 1 ton___ Mcr 1___ 0.015 tons/day antimatter + 0.015 tons/day hydrogen

Now of the FTL Drive Units there is only one it appears at TL9, weighs 1 ton and requires 1.25 tons of fuel for each jump. When a jump is made at a velocity equal to the planet of departure, the initial velocity is 100 times the speed of light. You count the linear acceleration made prior to and after the FTL jump when calculating your maximum FTL Speed.
 
Zero velocity is relative to a frame of reference, such as another starship or a planet. One cannot speak of a velocity unless its in relation to something else. In the case of a traveller campaign velocity is relative to the average velocity of all the stars in the campaign area, but relative to a starship traveling 0.1c in relation to them all the stars are travelling 0.1c in relation to the starship. Both points of view carry equal weight as far as the laws of physics is concerned.
Not at all! A measurement from either reference carries equal validity, but we are 100% certain that we accelerated the ship while the rest of the universe stayed put, not the other way 'round. On the other hand, we can match velocities and get an absolute measurement of distance and time (light speed signal travel time) which will not be exceeded in any reference frame.
Most stars may travel at a certian velocity, but that fact doesn't give the velocity any more weight to claim to be the at rest velocity than does a single starship traveling at 0.1c&#133
Almost everything in "normal" experience is too slow to be noticibly different from "at rest," so it doesn't matter which one we choose to use as a datum. At 0.1c the relative time and distance in travel between here and Alpha Cen doesn't change enough to matter. "Hey, after 42 years we really did arrive 2 months earlier than the Newtonian calculation. It's a good thing because 2 more months of this and I'd have beaten somebody to death with my cane."
…this should hold true for FTL velocities if there is symmetry on both sides of the speed of light.
I don't think inverting the velocity and applying subluminal energy requirements is a consistent model. You can generate power by deceleration via electromagnetic braking in a star's magnetic field. Theoretically you could decelerate from FTL to c+(plank length/s), trip the FTL drive to skip to c–(plank length/s), then decelerate to a subluminal velocity. This would effectively generate infinite energy twice.

The best you might do is treat c as a singularity and then resume with a sufficiently massive base energy level for ~1.0c and go up from there on some contrived function, perhaps k(v/c)^n.
 
"Not at all! A measurement from either reference carries equal validity, but we are 100% certain that we accelerated the ship while the rest of the universe stayed put, not the other way 'round. On the other hand, we can match velocities and get an absolute measurement of distance and time (light speed signal travel time) which will not be exceeded in any reference frame."
So what if the ship accelerated in the beginning? When you say something moves at 0 m/sec you are saying that it has matched its velocity with something else. You can go below that velocity in relation to that thing, but in relation to something else where both the reference frame and the object are moving at 10 m/sec you certainly can. The acceleration and decelleration are only important if you want to compare relativistic time dialation. If you have two objects that pass each other at high velocities and you start measuring time elapsed starting at the point where the two objects come closest, then each object will see the other as slower than itself. Which ever object is slowed down in relation to the other will experience a greater time slowing than the object that remained in motion, it doesn't matter which or which object was accelerated in the first place to achieve its motion as you only start counting when the two objects pass each other.


"I don't think inverting the velocity and applying subluminal energy requirements is a consistent model. You can generate power by deceleration via electromagnetic braking in a star's magnetic field. Theoretically you could decelerate from FTL to c+(plank length/s), trip the FTL drive to skip to c–(plank length/s), then decelerate to a subluminal velocity. This would effectively generate infinite energy twice."
Its a fairly consistent model. Remember in our hyperspace diagram a velocity is simply the slope of an objects world line. The horizonal axis is space and the vertical axis is time. The slope of the line is the distance traveled in a certain amount of time. The units of distance are light seconds and the units of time are seconds.

In our normal slower than light domain all objects travel less than 1 light second every second, sometimes the don't move at all which is shown by a vertical line (0 light seconds per second) Light always travels at 1 light second per second. (a 45 degree line from the vertical axis) Anything that travels faster than light would travel more than 1 light second per second. (and the slope of that line would be at greater than a 45 degree angle from the verticle time axis. In the FTL domain you don't increase velocity by increasing the distance covered for a constant rate of time; instead you decrease the amount of time elapsed for a given amount of distance covered. For the FTL object this distance covered is its "Time axis" It is possible in this sceme to reduce the time elapsed to 0 which in the STL domain would look like an infinite velocity. It is even possible to reduce the time elapsed to less than zero, which according to the STL domain is backward time travel. In an interstellar campaign where most of the focus is exploring other planets, the GM may want to restrict access to starships that are capable of reducing the amount of time elapsed per distance covered to less than zero. The easiest way to do this is to make it very expensive for the PCs and to reduce the incentives of time travel. For instance if history can't be changed then time travel is useless as a weapon against one's enemies, and it can't make one rich by predicting the future. If you send someone into the past to buy certain stocks that you know will increase in value, that would require altering the past as those investements were not made. Anything that changes a historical fact cannot be done or if it is done then the doer is shifted to a parallel timeline that is unseen by the sender in the present. The Present is the result of a certian sequence of historical events that cannot be altered or else you would have a different present. The Present can send time travellers back in time all it wants but it will not change anything in the present for the better or the worse. Anything sent back is already a part of history or it never got there. For the first-person time traveller things are different, he is free to change history, but the consequence is that he loses the present he came from. Since future time will no longer follow the path he knows, he benefits little from knowledge of future events since that knowledge is no longer true, its the same as if he got stranded on a primitive planet with a bnch of high tech equipment, he no longer knows the winning lottery numbers because hence forth the lottery numbers drawn will be different from what he expects. Historical figures may experience untimely deaths or not experience timely ones.
 
So what if the ship accelerated in the beginning? When you say something moves at 0 m/sec you are saying that it has matched its velocity with something else. You can go below that velocity in relation to that thing, but in relation to something else where both the reference frame and the object are moving at 10 m/sec you certainly can.
Please explain to me how you go "below that velocity in relation to that thing." Velocity is a vector, in other words, it includes both magnitude and direction information. If you go at a "speed" below zero (which in an absolute reference would be called "backwards") your velocity still has a positive magnitude.
<snip a bit> it doesn't matter which or which object was accelerated in the first place to achieve its motion as you only start counting when the two objects pass each other.
This corresponds to what real-life example, exactly? As I explained above, we know that the universe does not undergo arbitrary accelerations relative to a ship, therefore relativistic motion is subjective to the ship. Your example of ships passing is a trivial exercise in mathematics, not a relavent example of measuring distances between stars and energies for putative FTL travel.
Remember in our hyperspace diagram a velocity is simply the slope of an objects world line. The horizonal axis is space and the vertical axis is time. The slope of the line is the distance traveled in a certain amount of time. The units of distance are light seconds and the units of time are seconds.
But "time elapsed" is a subjective measure, not an external measure. Your model is saying the exact opposite of your claim. You've modeled it with a Time axis that is absolute, so that a photon travels 1 LS/s. You are implying a prefered reference frame. Just because you can draw a line sloped less than 45° doesn't mean such an event is possible, otherwise all the GR geniuses would be saying FTL is possible.

The whole point of GR is that it is subjective. You may perceive things around you moving according to your absolute time diagram. But your perception is given by the subjective "existence vector" described above. The vector of another object (the passing ship) is projected onto your existence vector, and is then by definition canted from your time and distance perception. It can never exceed your perception of time, it will always appear, to you, to be slowed.
In the FTL domain you don't increase velocity by increasing the distance covered for a constant rate of time; instead you decrease the amount of time elapsed for a given amount of distance covered. For the FTL object this distance covered is its "Time axis" It is possible in this sceme to reduce the time elapsed to 0 which in the STL domain would look like an infinite velocity.
But in an external measurement there is no difference between "increasing the distance covered for a constant rate of time" and "decreas[ing] the amount of time elapsed for a given amount of distance covered." Only in subjective measurements can the distinction be made, but the subjective time experience is already "zero" at c and can't be decreased.
It is possible in this sceme to reduce the time elapsed to 0 which in the STL domain would look like an infinite velocity. It is even possible to reduce the time elapsed to less than zero, which according to the STL domain is backward time travel.
Again, you are confusing subjective and external observational references. One test is the two-way travel time. I "sit still" and you hop in a ship, jump to Alpha Cen, jump back, and I time the interval. By your own model you might be going 100c in transit, and so the time interval I measure would be about 32 days. There is no time travel, nobody goes "backwards."
 
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So what if the ship accelerated in the beginning? When you say something moves at 0 m/sec you are saying that it has matched its velocity with something else. You can go below that velocity in relation to that thing, but in relation to something else where both the reference frame and the object are moving at 10 m/sec you certainly can.
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"Please explain to me how you go "below that velocity in relation to that thing." Velocity is a vector, in other words, it includes both magnitude and direction information. If you go at a "speed" below zero (which in an absolute reference would be called "backwards") your velocity still has a positive magnitude."
Please excuse me, that was a typo. I meant to say, "You can't go below that velocity in relation to that thing," The thing to which the frame of reference is referenced to. Some times I type so fast that a miss a few character's, namely the ('t) at the end of (can). For instance if you measure your velocity in relation to Earth, you can't go below 0 m/sec. Earth is traveling around the Sun at 29,790 m/sec, so it is certainly possible to travel at 28,000 m/sec and go below the velocity of the Earth if you change your reference frame.
There is no absolute velocity, 0 m/sec ref-Earth = 29,790 m/sec ref-Sun and there is a direction involved, usually at approximately a right angle to the direction of the Sun as seen from Earth. Relative to the Earth, the Sun is traveling at 29,790 m/sec. The Sun does not orbit the Earth however because it is Earth that is undergoing gravity-induced acceleration around the Sun, but for any given instant the motions of both bodies approximate a straight line.


"But "time elapsed" is a subjective measure, not an external measure. Your model is saying the exact opposite of your claim. You've modeled it with a Time axis that is absolute, so that a photon travels 1 LS/s. You are implying a prefered reference frame. Just because you can draw a line sloped less than 45° doesn't mean such an event is possible, otherwise all the GR geniuses would be saying FTL is possible."
Whenever you talk about velocity, you have to pick a reference frame, there is no absolute velocity except for the speed of light. The speed of light always takes the same value no matter what reference frame you use. In my FTL Drive, I'm extending that definition to include "Faster Than Light" reference frames. To a "Faster Than Light" reference frame the speed of light is the same as in a "slower than light" reference frame. In fact our reference frame is "Faster Than Light" as seen from an FTL reference frame. Velocity is relative under this assumption. I have not proved that FTL is possible, but I am creating a model of FTL that is based on STL motion. Every STL velocity in a STL reference frame has an FTL counterpart in that same STL reference frame. (The STL reference frame itself is moving in relation to something else but lets not digress.) a velocity of 0 light-seconds per second has an FTL counter part of 0 seconds per light-second. In the FTL realm the light-second (STL reference frame), is a measurement of time and the second (STL ref) is a measurement of distance. What ticks for an FTL clock is 300,000,000 meters (approx.) in distance. For every tick of that clock, the FTL ship moves another 300,000,000 meters in the STL reference frame, and it can't help it. What an FTL ship can do is move back and forth in time; it can move forward 1 second or backward 1 second in the same way that an STL ship can move forward or backwards 300,000,000 meters. While a STL ship can't move 300,000,000 meters in less than one second, it is equally true that an FTL ship can't move 1 second in less that 300,000,000 meters (or 1 light second. By changing its velocity in time, an FTL ship changes its velocity as seen by us; that is why a FTL ship that changes its velocity from moving 300,000,000 meters in 0.5 seconds to moving 300,000,000 meters in 0.25 seconds will double its velocity in our STL reference frame. The FTL ship sees it differently, to them they are moving from half the speed of light (as measured from a commonly accepted FTL reference frame) to one quarter the speed of light. Moving at infinite velocity to them is simply stopping in the STL time units that they use to measure their distances with. (In relation to the FTL frame of reference.) An object that does not move forward in time to us but covers a distance moves at infinite speed to us.

That is my self consistant FTL system. Under this system, its harder to go from 2c to 10c than it is to go from 10c to 100c as the inverted fractions are 1/2 c to 1/10 c and 1/10 c to 1/100 c. The distance between 1/2 and 1/10 is greater than between 1/10 and 1/100. To preclude time travel in relation to the STL reference frame, you design the rockets so that they can't produce quite enough velocity to come to a complete stop along the STL time axis. (In relation to the standard reference frame used in the game). This assumes that you leave enough fuel for the ship to speed up again to match its initial FTL velocity of 100 c and then jump to sublight. It could even be said that the engineers of starships purposely do this, they do not allow for enough fuel to cross the threshold into backwards time travel. According to this view, ships that do go back in time meet with disaster (are distroyed for the most part) and banks are unwilling to finance the purchase of ships which can go back in time. There are also certain failsafes in the ships computer's that banks require which prevent the starship's pilot from taking it back in time. These things can be modified of course, extra fuel can be stored, and the computer can be reprogrammed, but such alteration is considered illegal and a theft of the bank's collateral that represents the value still owed it. The PCs might care less and prefer to skip back in time, but they never know that they won't meet with disaster until they actually make the trip. As far as the standard FTL setting is concerned, time travel might as well be impossible if not in actuality. Many theorists will say that in theory they spaceship's worldline splits and one branch moves to a parallel timeline when time travel occurs, but they can never prove this because those branching worldlines never return to the timeline from which they originated from, they can return to similar timelines but never ones that are quite the same. As far as the original timeline is concerned, those ships are simply gone.

I've hoped I have made myself clear in this explaination, it was never my intention to debate physics with you. I'm merely trying to explain how this FTL system works. I think its far more consistent that the standard Jump drive system used in Traveller. In the straight FTL system, there are no distance limits; the greater the distance simply means the greater the waiting time for the ship's occupants. If the ship goes 100 light years then 100 years pass inside the ship and low berths are a requirement for every passenger and crewmember of the ship. Generally the ship accelerates outward until it reaches 100 diameters of the planet, then it jumps to FTL and accellerates some more until it uses about half its fuel supply, then the engines shut off and the starship coasts through FTL as the crew and passengers climb into their low berths. The ship's power and systems then shut down except for the emergency standby power system that runs the ship's clock. (The temperature of FTL space is 3degrees k by the way, so no power is required to maintain the low berths.) When a certain amount of time has passed, the ship's clock turns on the ship's computer which then powers up the ship's systems and revives the passengers and crew. The ships engines start up again and slow the ship down to 100c and then another jump is made, but this time back to STL. If the astrogation check is made, the ship should appear right in front of the destination planet and be travelling at just the right speed so that it can slow down and land on the planet.
 
Here is an example of an FTL Scout/Courier with TL16 fusion rockets:

SCOUT/COURIER
Class: Starship, type S
Tech Level: 16
Size: Medium (100 tons)
Streamlining: Streamlined
FTL Speed 294c: Acceleration: 2-G
Fuel: 25 tons
Duration: 55 hours
Crew: 1
Staterooms: 4
Small Cabins: 0
Bunks: 0
'Couches: 0
, Low Berths: 4
Cargo Space: 20 tons
Atmospheric Speeds; NoE = 275kph
Cruising = 825kph, Maximum = 1100kph
Other Equipment: Air/raft, fuel scoops.

EP Output: 4 (2 excess)
Agility: 2 (+2 EP)
Initiative: +2 (+2 agility)
AC: 12 (+2 agility)
Repulsors: 0
Nuclear Dampers: 0
Meson Screens: 0
Black Globes: 0
AR: 0
51: 100
Main Computer: ModeJ/1 (5 CPU)
Sensor Range: Close (Model/i)
Comm. Range: Close (Model/i)

Cost: MCr42.258 (new)

TAS Form 3.1 (Condensed)

Design Specifications
Installed Components Tonnage Cost EP
100-ton Hull +100 MCr12
Bridge -20 MCr0.1
Computer -0.1 MCr0.4
Flight Avionics -0.4 (MCr0.9)
Sensors -0.3 (MCr0.6)
Communications -0.2 (MCr0.5)
FTL Drive -3 MCr12
FTL Fuel -5
Fusion r TL16(200 tons) -4 Mcr 3 +4 and 2-g .36 tons/hour
Fusion r TL16(200 tons) -4 Mcr 3 +4 and 2-g .36 tons Underside
Fusion Fuel -20
Fuel Scoops MCr0.1
1 Hard Point MCr0.1
Double Turret MCr0.75
Air/Raft -5 MCr0.273
Staterooms (4) -16 MCr2
Low Berths -2
Cargo 20
Totals 0 MCr35.723

Double Turret: empty

Ship's Data (Commercial)

The greater efficiency of the fussion rockets allows the ship to carry less fuel and use the savings to have a 20 ton cargo capacity. Now the following is a scout/courier with an illegal modification done to it:

SCOUT/COURIER
Class: Starship, type S
Tech Level: 17
Size: Medium (100 tons)
Streamlining: Streamlined
FTL Speed -33 1/3c: Acceleration: 2-G
Fuel: 25 tons
Duration: 333 hours, 20 minutes
Crew: 1
Staterooms: 4
Small Cabins: 0
Bunks: 0
'Couches: 0
, Low Berths: 4
Cargo Space: 20 tons
Atmospheric Speeds; NoE = 275kph
Cruising = 825kph, Maximum = 1100kph
Other Equipment: Air/raft, fuel scoops.

EP Output: 4 (2 excess)
Agility: 2 (+2 EP)
Initiative: +2 (+2 agility)
AC: 12 (+2 agility)
Repulsors: 0
Nuclear Dampers: 0
Meson Screens: 0
Black Globes: 0
AR: 0
51: 100
Main Computer: ModeJ/1 (5 CPU)
Sensor Range: Close (Model/i)
Comm. Range: Close (Model/i)

Cost: MCr42.258 (new)

TAS Form 3.1 (Condensed)

Design Specifications
Installed Components Tonnage Cost EP
100-ton Hull +100 MCr12
Bridge -20 MCr0.1
Computer -0.1 MCr0.4
Flight Avionics -0.4 (MCr0.9)
Sensors -0.3 (MCr0.6)
Communications -0.2 (MCr0.5)
FTL Drive -3 MCr12
FTL Fuel -5
Antimatter r TL17(200 tons) -4 Mcr 3 +4 and 2-g .06 tons/hour
Antimatter r TL17(200 tons) -4 Mcr 3 +4 and 2-g .06 tons Underside
Fusion Fuel -20
Fuel Scoops MCr0.1
1 Hard Point MCr0.1
Double Turret MCr0.75
Air/Raft -5 MCr0.273
Staterooms (4) -16 MCr2
Low Berths -2
Cargo 20
Totals 0 MCr35.723

Double Turret: empty

Ship's Data (Commercial)

Notice that this ship has antimatter rockets, and its fuel comsumption is reduced to 1/6th of the TL16 fusion rocket yet it keeps the same amount of fuel stored. Also notice that its FTL Speed is -33 1/3c. The minus sign indicates that goes backwards in time at this speed. If you divide the distance in light years by this speed you get how long it takes to make a given trip. Lets say for this example the destination is 100 light years away:

100 light years / -33 1/3c = -2.999 or about -3 years. The ship's crew still experience 100 years ship time, unless they are in their low berths, but when they make the second jump after slowing down to 100c, they find that they arrive 3 years before they departed from their origination point. Under my time travel rules, they probably shift to a parallel timeline as well.
 
Some times I type so fast that a miss a few character's, namely the ('t) at the end of (can).
Thou art absolved. Go and sin no more. ;)

I dunno about the rest of this… eeeyyyrrrgh, where to start…

:paragraph: The idea of inverting time and space for FTL is a curious one, but ultimately unworkable. For example, the prevailing mathematical solution for GR causes a "convolution" (iirc, that is the technical term) when curvature reaches extremes near a massive singularity. The the radial spacelike dimension and the timelike dimensions get crossed, as it were, such that each dx is also a -dt. This is why photons can't escape, because they curve back on themselves. Otherwise it would make no difference how steep the gravity well, nothing could prevent a photon from eventually escaping.

Personally, I feel (as a layman who can barely comprehend the level of math involved) that such a solution is broken, and recently another method of solving GR by invoking A-bar (free space energy tensor) as a means of including gravitational energy density. Normally A-bar is allowed to cancel out of the solution. GR traditionalists claim that adding gravitational energy density into a gravitation curvature calculation is "double accounting." But, hey, the counter-intuitivity cat is out of the bag and they can't stuff it back in.

In this model a black hole never becomes a true singularity. When neutron degeneracy breaks down the star collapses to an as-yet-undefined state of real matter, perhaps quark degeneracy. The event horizon is permeable. Passing outward takes a photon, neutrino, or extremely energetic particle moving exactly normal to the mathematical EH curve. Crossing the EH is rare enough that escaping radiation can't be detected from interstellar distances.

Anyway, the point of my babble is that swapping time and space "just because" doesn't work. The mathematical consequences of convolution aren't good for matter, unless you prefer your ship in plasma form. :)

:paragraph: Second, your model doesn't support the time-space swap. The time and space axes of your cone model don't swap just because you tilt more than 45°, the angle still corresponds to a trigonometric extension of the STL relationship between the axes. Externally there is still the same relationship between "distance per unit time" and "time per unit distance."

A math genius might be able to show whether a non-Euclidean geometry with that relationship between time and space can exist. If it does exist, then the relationship between energy and velocity will be inherent in the metrics. I don't think a metric can exist in which it takes less energy to accelerate than it takes to decelerate.

Why not just have the jump to FTL instill an inherent velocity that you can't mess with, and then don't mess with it? Why have this odd inversion of energy levels and mysterious function of STL drives producing FTL acceleration? At the very least it is an unnecessary complication that clouds your model of FTL travel.
 
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Originally posted by Straybow:
I don't think inverting the velocity and applying subluminal energy requirements is a consistent model. You can generate power by deceleration via electromagnetic braking in a star's magnetic field. Theoretically you could decelerate from FTL to c+(plank length/s), trip the FTL drive to skip to c&#150;(plank length/s), then decelerate to a subluminal velocity. This would effectively generate infinite energy twice.

The best you might do is treat c as a singularity and then resume with a sufficiently massive base energy level for ~1.0c and go up from there on some contrived function, perhaps k(v/c)^n.
Actually he can't slow down if he is assuming tacyons. Which from his description he is doing (Treating c as a singularity is not bad, as essentially that is what it is mathematically in this case)

If he expends energy to slow down, while at FTL speeds, he ends up speeding up. To be consistent with the rest of his assumptions on his FTL drive, that is the way it has to work.

Now if he directs his fusion rockets such that it is the equavalent of speeding up, he'd slow down, no matter how contrafactual that may seem
 
Originally posted by Straybow:
Anyway, the point of my babble is that swapping time and space "just because" doesn't work. The mathematical consequences of convolution aren't good for matter, unless you prefer your ship in plasma form.


I think you may have a point here. However I will mention that Tom does have a precident on his side. This is part of the Schwartzchild solution for "radial symetric gravitational sources" like planets and black holes. (It does this TWICE in Kerr Newman, or rotating black holes)

[And before someone jumps on this, Schwartzchild treated the mass as a point source for his formula. Outside the event horizon, it does not matter, planet or black hole, they act the same. So the same math works for planets as well.]

Inside the event horizon, mathematically, x and t do swap. What this means is still unclear to me, but it can't be good for the ship.
 
"Second, your model doesn't support the time-space swap. The time and space axes of your cone model don't swap just because you tilt more than 45°, the angle still corresponds to a trigonometric extension of the STL relationship between the axes. Externally there is still the same relationship between "distance per unit time" and "time per unit distance.""
Einstein invented the notion of time-space, where time is the forth dimension. Most particles take up 3 dimensions spacially and the fouth for time, but which dimension is the time dimension? Is there some unique property of the forth dimension that causes it to be used as the time axis for the particles in our domain or is it merely chance that caused it to be that way? Perhaps there are some other particles that use the third, second, or first dimension as their time axis, particles that do this would have an inexorible forward motion in the dimension that they use as time, these particles would to us be moving faster than the speed of light. Where are they? If they were created in the big bang they would be gone by now. What is the fate of a tachyon? Since space covered is time elapsed for them, all the protons would have decayed by now since most of them would be moving very fast, they'd cover alot of distance fairly rapidly. Only the high energy tachyons would still linger, these would be the tacyon equivalent to cosmic rays, they'd go only a little faster than the speed of light. I don't know about black holes, I try to stay away from them for the most part, they do have one useful property though, they can turn a tachyon around 180 degrees since they bend space.

I admit the weak point in my model is how to turn regular spaceships into tachyon spaceships, this is the part that requires a little Science Fiction magic of future technology. I try to keep science fiction magic to the minimum required to have an Interstellar campaign. One of the requirements is to have reasonable travel times as seen by the outside universe. The theory or relativity allows for reasonable transit times for the ships crew, but then I'd have to update the universe on a regular basis and write hundreds of years of additional future history with each trip, that won't do so we need FTL.

The hard part is getting past the speed of light without matching it precisely. I like to get that painful pinprick over with in one jump and once in the FTL realm deal with FTL motion in a Newtonian fashion by inverting the time axis with a space axis in the direction of motion at the time of the jump. The FTL ship can speed up or slow down using ordinary rockets, not warp drives.

Look at the Star Trek Universe as an alternative! They had to invent an entirely new form of motion and create some more bogus physics to govern its FTL speed through the galaxy! There is a warp for light speed, and various warps that increase exponentioally, but moderated by an additional fudge factior called warp 10 called infinite velocity, requiring infinite energy. With each new episode they have to invent new physics to cover this or that. The whole thing is ugly, and I'd rather have one simply model to cover FTL speeds.

Traveller has this Jump Drive, you press a button and you spend a week in this undefined space called Jump Space. You fuse a substantial fraction of the ships volume in hydrogen to go a specified distance and you have to keep adding power to the jump drive to keep the ship from disappearing in jump space. If you leave the ship while in Jump space or your power plant conks out, you disappear forever! I don't like all this bogus Jump space physics. People sit in their spaceships for 6 days with nothing to do except do not look out the window or you might go crazy. No one know what Jump space is, but people use it all the time and you have not just one Jump drive but 6 and each kind of jump drive carries your a different distance in space. The pilot then has to worry about whether the next stay system is close enough to make it in a single jump and large empty spaces between stars become barriers. The Jump Drive makes intergalactic travel all but impossible unless you are willing to foregoe FTL travel and instead travel slower than light. Alot of bugus physics gets in the way and players have to deal with it. I like my FTL system because it gets the FTL overwith in a pinprick and the FTL physics is modeled on STL physics. No power needs to be generated to stay in the FTL domain, you don't go insane from looking out the window. What you see outside the FTL window is quite rational, basically all the STL objects you see out the window appear ahead of the ship and those are the objects that are shining from behind the star ship. The light is not catching up to the ship, but the ship is catching up to the light. The image is therefore reverse and the stars appear to be moving further away in the direction of the ships motion, its a little weird but it won't drive you insane.

I don't know if its physically possible to go FTL in this manner, but I think gamewise it sure beats the Star Trek Warp Drive or the Traveller Jump Drive, because in those systems everywhere you go you run into bogus physics. FTL is only a mechanism to get from one star system to the next, I don't want it to dominate the story and have to revisit it by adding one patch of bogus physics on top of another to cover different situations. Sometimes in Star Trek you want to have time travel, but most of the time you don't, the rules of FTL travel are consistent.
 
The hard part is getting past the speed of light without matching it precisely. I like to get that painful pinprick over with in one jump and once in the FTL realm deal with FTL motion in a Newtonian fashion by inverting the time axis with a space axis in the direction of motion at the time of the jump. The FTL ship can speed up or slow down using ordinary rockets, not warp drives.

Look at the Star Trek Universe as an alternative! They had to invent an entirely new form of motion and create some more bogus physics to govern its FTL speed through the galaxy! There is a warp for light speed, and various warps that increase exponentioally, but moderated by an additional fudge factior called warp 10 called infinite velocity, requiring infinite energy. With each new episode they have to invent new physics to cover this or that. The whole thing is ugly, and I'd rather have one simply model to cover FTL speeds.
Actually, the original ST used a simple speed = c·(warp factor)³, but lack of discipline among the multiple writers led to escalation. That enemy could go warp 8, and they were defeated. This enemy can go warp 12, and the next warp 15, etc.

With ST:TNG they changed the warp factor to be approximately e^(warp factor), blending into an infinite asymptotic at warp 10. They tried to instill more discipline among writers with a nod to energy requirements, but along came the Borg and a re-invoking of Hyperwarp from one of the ST movies to get aroung the warp 10 barrier.

Inverting the energy-velocity relationship is just as bad as radiation/technology of the week. As I mentioned before, if you want to reintroduce a semi-Newtonian aspect to FTL it can be done simply with energy requirements in the form of k·(v/c)^n or perhaps k·ln(v/c) if you want to make higher velocities accessible.
 
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"Inverting the energy-velocity relationship is just as bad as radiation/technology of the week. As I mentioned before, if you want to reintroduce a semi-Newtonian aspect to FTL it can be done simply with energy requirements in the form of k·(v/c)^n or perhaps k·ln(v/c) if you want to make higher velocities accessible."
This would distroy the symmetry between STL and FTL, and the idea of time as just another dimension. I don't know. The idea with most SF has been to separate the FTL functions from the time travel functions by making timwe travel impossible with FTL devices. But then if you later want to include time travel you add another fudge factor such as "The Guardian on the Edge of Forever" (Star Trek) or "The Sling Shot manuever" around the Sun to allow for an element of time travel. I think its far simpler to find a way to live with the possibility of time travel by introducing a time travel mechanic that makes paradoxes and changing history an impossibility. People who do so leave the timeline and those on the original timeline are left with the impression that the time travellers were killed because they went back in time, a strong disincentive not to attempt time travel. People instead try to get as close to the threshold as possible without going over it. I don't know why you need a building preclusion of time travel in physics, when all that is necessary is to prevent the occurance of time paradoxes. I just assume leave that feature in but make it difficult to use by standardizing ship designs to prevent it and making antimatter scarce and difficult to get.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Einstein invented the notion of time-space, where time is the forth dimension. Most particles take up 3 dimensions spacially and the fouth for time, but which dimension is the time dimension? Is there some unique property of the forth dimension that causes it to be used as the time axis for the particles in our domain or is it merely chance that caused it to be that way?

At this juncture of our tech level, I can only offer my opinion. I do think that the time dimension is fundamentally different from the rest. First off, it does not commute with the other three nicely. In some forms of the metric, the time dimension is given an 'i', multiplied by the square root of negative 1, while in most, it is of a reverse sign than the other 3 spatial dimension. Using the same sign gives a garbled or wrong answer to the question the metric was trying to determine.

Einstein was able to combine space and time into a single concept, because the Lorentz contractions worked on BOTH space AND time. And by including time in the dimensional structure, this does make it conceptually easier, as well as fit observation.

But how you can swap time for space, I don't really see a way to do it. Or really what the effects would be. Would it be limited to a single spatial dimension, or would it be inclusive of all three? And more importantly, just what is the mechanism or even the meaning of a spatial dimension becoming a temporal one? Is it still a spatial dimension if a particle sees it as a temporal one?
What is the fate of a tachyon?
From what I read, tachyons are thought to decay in energy, which causes them to speed up. They get faster and faster and fly away.

Something I never got, was why it was improper to talk about a photon's frame of reference. It travells at a set speed, does not accelerate or decelerate. Part of the problem is that for the photon, there is no time. Its two endpoints in its flight path are essentially, in its frame, identical. There is no time elapse for the photon between its origin and its destination, even though millions of years might elapse for us between the two events.
Only the high energy tachyons would still linger, these would be the tacyon equivalent to cosmic rays, they'd go only a little faster than the speed of light.
Not according to standard tachyon theory. Only the low energy or fastest tachyons would survive.
I don't know about black holes, I try to stay away from them for the most part, they do have one useful property though, they can turn a tachyon around 180 degrees since they bend space.
you might want to investigate Kerr Newman black holes. These have a double event horizon, and you can get some really weird effects by slipping between them. But generally speaking staying away from black holes is a good idea. They suck.

Look at the Star Trek Universe as an alternative! ...The whole thing is ugly, and I'd rather have one simply model to cover FTL speeds.
I could not agree more if I tried with all my might. However, a lot of that is unnecessary, and more due to dramatic concerns rather than actual travel concerns.

And again, I want to plug Alcubierre's work. It does take care of the FTL problem, and to date, it is logically consistent with GR and what we know. The "rubber science" needed to incorporate it are minimal
Traveller has this Jump Drive, you press a button and you spend a week in this undefined space called Jump Space. You fuse a substantial fraction of the ships volume in hydrogen to go a specified distance and you have to keep adding power to the jump drive to keep the ship from disappearing in jump space. If you leave the ship while in Jump space or your power plant conks out, you disappear forever! I don't like all this bogus Jump space physics.
I can sympathize with you here. I have many of the same feelings. However, I will point out there are some dramatic concerns that Jump drive does cover, and I think was designed essentially for those concerns.

Earlier in another post, I was sentenced either to a special hell or the rubber room for noting that if your FTL speeds get too high, you get too much cross culture, or cross planet/system contamination of the cultural sort. Things like McDonald franchises scatter throughout the 11,000 worlds become much much easier as you are able to move faster. Before long the entire galaxy begins to look very Vland.

If the entire galaxy becomes copies of a single world, your chances for diverse adventures decrease dramatically. So you need FTL for Traveller (or any science fiction/space opera game) but you have to keep the speeds down, or else you will essentially be only going to the same planet again and again and again.

Also, fuel considerations govern cargo load. Even if you have slow FLT, big ships with lots of goods can cancel out many of the anti-homogenizing effects that slow FTL presents. So you kind of have to restrict it to small ships (relatively speaking) and slow FTL if you want to create a universe that is diverse culturally, and spread out

So might I suggest working on the problem backwards. Identify in game terms what you need to accomplish with your FTL drive, and then work out the physics based on what you know, as well as what is believable to you and your players. What kind of universe you want, will go far in aiding this kind of analysis.

The pilot then has to worry about whether the next stay system is close enough to make it in a single jump and large empty spaces between stars become barriers.
This is a feature, not a bug. making players worry about making it to the next system, or essentially blocking off some systems appears to be a design consideration, rather than a flaw. I can't address the insanity issue too much, as I never got it.
I don't know if its physically possible to go FTL in this manner, but I think gamewise it sure beats the Star Trek Warp Drive or the Traveller Jump Drive, because in those systems everywhere you go you run into bogus physics. FTL is only a mechanism to get from one star system to the next, I don't want it to dominate the story and have to revisit it by adding one patch of bogus physics on top of another to cover different situations. Sometimes in Star Trek you want to have time travel, but most of the time you don't, the rules of FTL travel are consistent.
Well again, because I ain't got my very own personal starship, I can only offer opinion. I will note that Star Trek appears to be the impetus for Alcubierre's work however, that there is less required rubber science today than there was 30 years ago, when either Star Trek and Traveller were first created. And that Alcubierre's paper did help me get to some semblance of competence in dealing with GR and the math especially. As a matter of fact, there is at least one physics professor that uses the paper and the subsequent arguments as a teaching tool for his GR class.

I have noted where your system deivates from what is thought to be known at this time, or what is theoretically conjectured as of now. It is my opinion that there is still too much rubber physics for me. I have strong doubts that tachyons exist, and it boils down to the meaning of imaginary numbers and what it means in the real world. I am not saying that such numbers do not have their place in reality. I have noted an experiment that found Mandlebrot structures in the real world, which indicate that despite their name, imaginary numbers do have some physical reality.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I think its far simpler to find a way to live with the possibility of time travel by introducing a time travel mechanic that makes paradoxes and changing history an impossibility. ...I don't know why you need a building preclusion of time travel in physics, when all that is necessary is to prevent the occurance of time paradoxes.
When players start monkeying around with the FTL rules and figure out how to do time travel once, you got problems as a GM. Its like handing the players as Omega 13 device and expect them not to use it to reroll their last failed save.

I do think you have a cleaner universe, a lot less book keeping by making time travel impossible. Granted it limits your stories, but I don't see a lack of time travel adventures as being all that great a loss. They make for interesting fiction, but if one is trying to model a real world, I don't see it making the cut.

You have to admit, by rendering time travel impossible, it does effectively remove any chance of potential paradoxes.
 
"When players start monkeying around with the FTL rules and figure out how to do time travel once, you got problems as a GM. Its like handing the players as Omega 13 device and expect them not to use it to reroll their last failed save.

I do think you have a cleaner universe, a lot less book keeping by making time travel impossible. Granted it limits your stories, but I don't see a lack of time travel adventures as being all that great a loss. They make for interesting fiction, but if one is trying to model a real world, I don't see it making the cut.

You have to admit, by rendering time travel impossible, it does effectively remove any chance of potential paradoxes."
On the other side of the coin, time travel also solves some problems like the number of habitable planets. I think in a realistic setting, habitable planets won't just happen. Planets may have life on them, but that won't necessarily make them habitable for us, it would only be habitable for the life that evolved their. Also the search or extra-terrestrial intelligence has so far been unfruitful, I think that says something about our immediate stellar neighborhood. There are no Klingons, no Vulcans. Most planets we would encounter would not be suitable for habitation without major modification (terraforming). With time travel, you can terraform a planet before its "discovered". I think time travel should be allowed but be extremely expensive and beyond the player's means. A powerful NPC might have access to time travel though. One sort of activity the NPC might undertake would be to send a terraforming crew back in time and then find a planet that is suitable to terraforming with minimual resources. The terraforming project takes tens of thousands of years to complete. The crew goes back in time one and from that moment on only goes forward in time via their cold berths, waking up at certain intervals to check on the progress of the terraforming project until they are back in the present. The result is a planet suitable for imediate colonization for humans and the thousands of years of terraforming may have produced some unexpected surprises as well. Some historical time travel may also be possible, basically this is the "marooned in time" scenario. The PCs go back in time once, and from that moment on, can only move forward, as the time travel itself was not of their own agency. The important thing here is not to have the PCVs go back in time to correct their mistakes or to rescue fallen comrades. Time travel should be a story starter, not a means to solve problems.

Maybe the time dimension is unique, not that I care, it just seemed to me that flipping time with the forward motion of the spacecraft was an elegant solution to FTL travel. The physics isn't perfect, but then again physics is rarely designed for ease of use. We must deal with physics as it is. There are some things in physics that hint at the possibility of time travel, and opther things that hint at the possibility of parallel realities. Everytime you roll a dice, maybe there is a universe where you rolled a 2 and another one where you rolled a 3. As for the conservation of mass, we don't know if that applies to the Universe as a whole. The expanding multiple realities might just be another part of the Universes expansion.

Warp drive has something to be said for it. One way to warp space is with an antigravity field. The general theory of relativity states that a gravity field would slow down time. Suppose you surrounded a spaceship with a transparent sphere and that sphere created a powerful antigravity field. Looking outward from that sphere would be similar to looking down an immense gravity field. Light would be red shifted as it climbed up the anti-gravity field just as it would when climbing out of a gravity well. Time would seem to tick slower for the general universe than it would on the starship. Since time would move faster in the starship light would move faster with that accelerated time. By moving close to the local speed of light and carrying the sphere along, you can cancel out the sntigravitational time compression with special theory time dialation of moving close to the speed of light. In fact you could increase the antigravity field as you accelerated, effectively accelerating the local speed of light as you went. How does that sound as a warp drive? Of course it would tend to push things waya from itself as well.
 
I think the energy input of the warp field would be that required to redshift every photon and bend their light paths away, as well as that required to repell all the objects within range. The acceleration of antigravity near the sphere would have to be enourmous to redshit incoming light. Lets say the sphere or ring is 100 meters in diameter. The area inside the ring or sphere whould not be directly effected by the antigravity since the fields would cancel out to produce a level gravitational platue inside. Outside all particles nearby would be accelerated away to near the speed of light. All incomming objects whould be slowed down and turned away. If the incomming object is too massive for a reasonable amount of energy to accelerate them away, the warp field would collapse. Warp ships have to get away from all massive objects and areas of strong illumination in order to operate effectively. The main problem with warp fields is that they make rockets and familiar newtonian motion obsolete. You can use a warp field to leveltate off the surface of a planet if you repel the planet's surface away from it. All warp ships would also have force fields that protect it from micrometerites, and laser beams would be redshifted to harmlessness unless they exceeded a certain intensity.
 
When all else fails, you can have a slower than light starship:

SCOUT/COURIER
Class: Starship, type S
Tech Level: 17
Size: Medium (100 tons)
Streamlining: Streamlined
Maximum Speed 0.052c: Acceleration: 2-G
Fuel: 26 tons
Duration: 433 hours, 20 minutes
Crew: 1
Staterooms: 4
Small Cabins: 0
Bunks: 0
'Couches: 0
, Low Berths: 4
Cargo Space: 20 tons
Atmospheric Speeds; NoE = 275kph
Cruising = 825kph, Maximum = 1100kph
Other Equipment: Air/raft, fuel scoops.

EP Output: 4 (2 excess)
Agility: 2 (+2 EP)
Initiative: +2 (+2 agility)
AC: 12 (+2 agility)
Repulsors: 0
Nuclear Dampers: 0
Meson Screens: 0
Black Globes: 0
AR: 0
51: 100
Main Computer: ModeJ/1 (5 CPU)
Sensor Range: Close (Model/i)
Comm. Range: Close (Model/i)

Cost: MCr42.258 (new)

TAS Form 3.1 (Condensed)

Design Specifications
Installed Components Tonnage Cost EP
100-ton Hull +100 MCr12
Bridge -20 MCr0.1
Computer -0.1 MCr0.4
Flight Avionics -0.4 (MCr0.9)
Sensors -0.3 (MCr0.6)
Communications -0.2 (MCr0.5)
Antimatter r TL17(200 tons) -4 Mcr 3 +4 and 2-g .06 tons/hour
Antimatter r TL17(200 tons) -4 Mcr 3 +4 and 2-g .06 tons Underside
Fusion Fuel -26
Fuel Scoops MCr0.1
1 Hard Point MCr0.1
Double Turret MCr0.75
Air/Raft -5 MCr0.273
Staterooms (4) -16 MCr2
Low Berths -2
Cargo 26
Totals 0 MCr35.723

Double Turret: empty

Ship's Data (Commercial)

The price does not include the cost of the Antimatter. With this starship Alpha Centauri is 84 years away. Low Berths are required as the ship can only be fully powered for 433 hours and 20 minutes at 2-g and for 866 hours and 40 minutes at 1-g acceleration. The ship will have to be shut down and people put in their low Berths when half this time has elapsed. What sort of civilization do these sort of starship's imply?
 
Wow dudes, you're going all-out here!

I was just looking for variant rules which meshed closely with Traveller... improvements and simplifications which kept the look and feel.
 
One thing I forgot to mention: The antimatter rockets are also TL16 Fusion rockets with 6 times the rate of fuel consumption as the antimatter rockets. The mission profile of this slower than light Scout/Courier is to get to its destination as fast as it can using up its entire supply of antimatter. Once there, it does some exploration, and fills its tanks with hydrogen from a local gas giant of the planet's oceans. It can then accelerate for a total of 72 hours and 13 minutes, splitting it to 36 houra at 2-g to get to 0.00864c and the remaining rocket time used to slow down again, or twice that at a more leisurely 1-g acceleration. it will take 509.25 years to return to Earth from Alpha Centauri to give an example, but the crew has its cold berths and can wait that long, but it can beam back all the data it has gathered back to Earth at the speed of light, so those whove sent out the Scout ship get their information back in 88.4 years and that's what's important to the investors or taxpayers back home.
 
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