Alternate Force Fields
- Thread starter Typhonis
- Start date
Well, mentioned in the two Motie books (Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand) is the Langston field. I think This shield is also used in Jerry Pournelle's CoDominion series, but for cryptic reasons, I don't read his stuff unless Larry Niven's name is also attached.
The Langston field is similar in concept to the black globe, but there are a number of important differences, such that it's not the same thing.
In real life, there is a plasma shield that's recently been invented. Good at stopping lasers, as I recall. Also good for cleaning you off without killing you, or something like that. Been about a year since I read about it; you'll have to look it up.
Regarding Star Trek-type shields, there seem to be two different kinds (at least, if you've played enough games loosely based on it, you get that impression). One is a deflector and the other is an absorber.
The deflector tries to push away incoming energy. Think of it like an anti-gravity field; it pushes and deflects stuff away from the shield generator.
The absorber simply soaks up the energy, until it's full, and then shuts down. This is usually represented in an opposite fashion, such that you are knocking the shield down bit by bit, and able to regenerate it. Kind of like putting up a wall and strengthening it as it gets knocked away. MOO2's shields are a good example.
There's other methods. Sand casters are shields, after a fashion, as are repulsors. And of course, the venerable white globe and the Dyson Shield. I've heard too little about the Dyson Shield to tell you what it is. The first explanation I heard was that it absorbs incoming energy and adds it to the shield, making it stronger. The only way to defeat one of these things is with a bigger Dyson Shield. But I seriously doubt that's what the man meant, seeing as how he was a physicist and would know better. As I recall, though, it is mentioned in MT (not to be confused with a Dyson Sphere). And since it was like 15 years ago that I heard about it (and I have a lousy memory and was a teen at the time), I take no responsibility for the accuracy of the information in this paragraph.
The Langston field is similar in concept to the black globe, but there are a number of important differences, such that it's not the same thing.
In real life, there is a plasma shield that's recently been invented. Good at stopping lasers, as I recall. Also good for cleaning you off without killing you, or something like that. Been about a year since I read about it; you'll have to look it up.
Regarding Star Trek-type shields, there seem to be two different kinds (at least, if you've played enough games loosely based on it, you get that impression). One is a deflector and the other is an absorber.
The deflector tries to push away incoming energy. Think of it like an anti-gravity field; it pushes and deflects stuff away from the shield generator.
The absorber simply soaks up the energy, until it's full, and then shuts down. This is usually represented in an opposite fashion, such that you are knocking the shield down bit by bit, and able to regenerate it. Kind of like putting up a wall and strengthening it as it gets knocked away. MOO2's shields are a good example.
There's other methods. Sand casters are shields, after a fashion, as are repulsors. And of course, the venerable white globe and the Dyson Shield. I've heard too little about the Dyson Shield to tell you what it is. The first explanation I heard was that it absorbs incoming energy and adds it to the shield, making it stronger. The only way to defeat one of these things is with a bigger Dyson Shield. But I seriously doubt that's what the man meant, seeing as how he was a physicist and would know better. As I recall, though, it is mentioned in MT (not to be confused with a Dyson Sphere). And since it was like 15 years ago that I heard about it (and I have a lousy memory and was a teen at the time), I take no responsibility for the accuracy of the information in this paragraph.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
As TheDs says the humble sandcaster is a type of defensive shield. In Traveller they are clouds of reflective/ablative crystals launched into space between the defender and the attacking ship. In space they retain the vector of the firing ship and so if the ship maneuvers the sand cloud will be lost (but it will remain in space travelling at its own vector).
In Traveller2300 ships could be protected by a screen generator. The description of how it opperates is almost exactly the same with one very important difference - it stays in contact with the ship by means of an electromagnetic field so even if the ship moves it keeps its' sand cloud protection.
This could easily be adapted to Traveller just keep the sand cloud in contact with the ship with an EM or, at higher TLs, a gravitic field until it is burned away by weapons fire.
Don't forget to keep replacing those sand cannisters
.
In Traveller2300 ships could be protected by a screen generator. The description of how it opperates is almost exactly the same with one very important difference - it stays in contact with the ship by means of an electromagnetic field so even if the ship moves it keeps its' sand cloud protection.
This could easily be adapted to Traveller just keep the sand cloud in contact with the ship with an EM or, at higher TLs, a gravitic field until it is burned away by weapons fire.
Don't forget to keep replacing those sand cannisters
Rupert Boleyn
SOC-12
In TNE the cloud is manipulated by megnetic or, at higher TLS, gravitic fields and stays with the ship as it manoruvres. However it's still directional and disperses each round, so you have to keep topping the cloud up.
TheDS wrote:
"Well, mentioned in the two Motie books (Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand) is the Langston field. I think This shield is also used in Jerry Pournelle's CoDominion series, but for cryptic reasons, I don't read his stuff unless Larry Niven's name is also attached."
TheDS,
A wise choice. Without a collaborator, Dr. Pournelle's work is rather... (ahem) disappointing is the best word I'd guess. After re-reading Mr. Niven's descriptions of their work on MiGe, I'd hazard a guess that Dr. Pournelle was the setting man, while Mr. Niven handled the charecters and math. They both then tackled the plot.
"The Langston field is similar in concept to the black globe, but there are a number of important differences, such that it's not the same thing."
A Langston Field; supposedly the chance result of two completely different experiments on widely separated worlds that would never happen again(1), would make a wonderful addition to any Traveller campaign. As you wisely caution, the Field would greatly change that campaign's setting from the OTU setting. However, that shouldn't stop anyone from doing it! Much the opposite in fact!
The Field absorbs energy; kinetic, thermal, whatever, and stores it. The energy in the Field can only be radiated away, no capacitors to dump to as with the OTU black globe. While the Field seems to be always of a certain shape and a certain distance(2) off the ship's hull, it can be manipulated to create openings. These ports are used for weapons' fire (beam and missile), small craft movement, the vessel's reaction drive exhaust, and to poke sensor 'masts' through.
The Field radiates stored energy slowly; naturally considering it is in space, and can fail catastrophically once too much energy is abosrbed. You'll know just how much energy is in your opponent's Field by the color it radiates at; the Field slowly climbs up the Roy G. Biv's rainbow as the energy contained in it increases. Get your enemy's Field past indigo or violet and he'll either buy trying to surrender or has already been cooked inside.
Oh, and controlling the Field, creating all those ports and peepholes to shoot through and look out of takes energy too. Just using the Field means you're dumping energy into it.
Particularly energetic weapon strikes can produce 'burn throughs' in the Field. The energy impinging the Field can temporarily overwhelm that local region of the Field; apparently the Field can only transfer energy within itself at a certain rate, and thus damage the ship inside. Descriptions in the books speak of the areas of weapon strikes being bright white spots that slowly 'cool' the the surrounding Field's temperature/color. Damage and casulties in combat occur from these 'burn throughs' because Field failure results in a vaporized ship.
The Field apparently has some EW or ECM effects too. In the battle scene off New Chicago(3), MacAthur is able to complete her FLT Alderson transit and maneuver for some time before the rebel vessel Defiant, can engage her. The rebels know the Imperial ship has arrived but bringing her to battle still takes time.
Weapon ranges in MiGe are also much shorter than those found in Traveller. Battles apparently take place at ranges that allow pictures to be created with both opponents in view! Mentions are made of holos of the Empire's most famous battles being displayed and the ship's in them looking like colored beads connected by colored threads (a gaffe there, lasers wouldn't be visible). Also, against engaged vessels, small craft like the ones aboard MacArthur, are supposedly able to make 'torpedo' runs on enemy ships.
Finally, the Field is not instantly deadly if contacted by personnel; an officer aboard MacArthur comes into contact with that vessel's Field but is saved through quick action. The Field can also be deployed in atmospheres; New Scotland's settled regions are circular, only expanding as bigger Fields are constructed.
Langston Fields in Traveller would be a great deal of fun. Anyone care to try their hands at some rules for them?
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - The humans in MiGe refer to the Field in that manner several times; the result of a happy accident that could never be the result of a deliberate research effort. I have my doubts about that, espeically when you consider that the Motie Engineers immediately copy and improve upon the Field after observing it. I believe that MiGe's humans feel that the Field can't be 'theorized' and 'developed' because they didn't invent it that way. It's more a statement revealing of the 2nd Empire's cultural blinders and not of the nature of the Field itself.
2 - The Human's Field here, the Moties quickly develop and expanding Field that doesn't help them as much in certain combat situations as you would expect.
3 - Dropped from MiGe for reasons of length(!!!!)and published as a short story. Try and imagine that now with the +1000 page Mitchnerian-King monstrosities squatting on the shelves!
"Well, mentioned in the two Motie books (Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand) is the Langston field. I think This shield is also used in Jerry Pournelle's CoDominion series, but for cryptic reasons, I don't read his stuff unless Larry Niven's name is also attached."
TheDS,
A wise choice. Without a collaborator, Dr. Pournelle's work is rather... (ahem) disappointing is the best word I'd guess. After re-reading Mr. Niven's descriptions of their work on MiGe, I'd hazard a guess that Dr. Pournelle was the setting man, while Mr. Niven handled the charecters and math. They both then tackled the plot.
"The Langston field is similar in concept to the black globe, but there are a number of important differences, such that it's not the same thing."
A Langston Field; supposedly the chance result of two completely different experiments on widely separated worlds that would never happen again(1), would make a wonderful addition to any Traveller campaign. As you wisely caution, the Field would greatly change that campaign's setting from the OTU setting. However, that shouldn't stop anyone from doing it! Much the opposite in fact!
The Field absorbs energy; kinetic, thermal, whatever, and stores it. The energy in the Field can only be radiated away, no capacitors to dump to as with the OTU black globe. While the Field seems to be always of a certain shape and a certain distance(2) off the ship's hull, it can be manipulated to create openings. These ports are used for weapons' fire (beam and missile), small craft movement, the vessel's reaction drive exhaust, and to poke sensor 'masts' through.
The Field radiates stored energy slowly; naturally considering it is in space, and can fail catastrophically once too much energy is abosrbed. You'll know just how much energy is in your opponent's Field by the color it radiates at; the Field slowly climbs up the Roy G. Biv's rainbow as the energy contained in it increases. Get your enemy's Field past indigo or violet and he'll either buy trying to surrender or has already been cooked inside.
Oh, and controlling the Field, creating all those ports and peepholes to shoot through and look out of takes energy too. Just using the Field means you're dumping energy into it.
Particularly energetic weapon strikes can produce 'burn throughs' in the Field. The energy impinging the Field can temporarily overwhelm that local region of the Field; apparently the Field can only transfer energy within itself at a certain rate, and thus damage the ship inside. Descriptions in the books speak of the areas of weapon strikes being bright white spots that slowly 'cool' the the surrounding Field's temperature/color. Damage and casulties in combat occur from these 'burn throughs' because Field failure results in a vaporized ship.
The Field apparently has some EW or ECM effects too. In the battle scene off New Chicago(3), MacAthur is able to complete her FLT Alderson transit and maneuver for some time before the rebel vessel Defiant, can engage her. The rebels know the Imperial ship has arrived but bringing her to battle still takes time.
Weapon ranges in MiGe are also much shorter than those found in Traveller. Battles apparently take place at ranges that allow pictures to be created with both opponents in view! Mentions are made of holos of the Empire's most famous battles being displayed and the ship's in them looking like colored beads connected by colored threads (a gaffe there, lasers wouldn't be visible). Also, against engaged vessels, small craft like the ones aboard MacArthur, are supposedly able to make 'torpedo' runs on enemy ships.
Finally, the Field is not instantly deadly if contacted by personnel; an officer aboard MacArthur comes into contact with that vessel's Field but is saved through quick action. The Field can also be deployed in atmospheres; New Scotland's settled regions are circular, only expanding as bigger Fields are constructed.
Langston Fields in Traveller would be a great deal of fun. Anyone care to try their hands at some rules for them?
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - The humans in MiGe refer to the Field in that manner several times; the result of a happy accident that could never be the result of a deliberate research effort. I have my doubts about that, espeically when you consider that the Motie Engineers immediately copy and improve upon the Field after observing it. I believe that MiGe's humans feel that the Field can't be 'theorized' and 'developed' because they didn't invent it that way. It's more a statement revealing of the 2nd Empire's cultural blinders and not of the nature of the Field itself.
2 - The Human's Field here, the Moties quickly develop and expanding Field that doesn't help them as much in certain combat situations as you would expect.
3 - Dropped from MiGe for reasons of length(!!!!)and published as a short story. Try and imagine that now with the +1000 page Mitchnerian-King monstrosities squatting on the shelves!
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yep, I've checked Brilliant Lances to refresh my memory and Rupert you are correct, this is also the way sandcasters work in TNE. But then TNE ships borrowed a lot of ideas from T2300 
.
Didn't someone once say GDW toyed with the idea of using the stutterwarp for TNE or is that just a friend of a friend story based on FF&S
Anyway, my reply was based on OT, Mayday, T20, GURPS Traveller and, last but not least, Power Projection-Escort(excellent publication that it is). HighGuard, MT and T4 all abstract space combat so that how things work is not important in those systems.
I had forgotten that TNE did things differently, which is inexcusable considering I am currently trying to convert TNE ship designs to HighGuard/T20
.
Thanks for the reminder
.
.Didn't someone once say GDW toyed with the idea of using the stutterwarp for TNE or is that just a friend of a friend story based on FF&S
Anyway, my reply was based on OT, Mayday, T20, GURPS Traveller and, last but not least, Power Projection-Escort(excellent publication that it is). HighGuard, MT and T4 all abstract space combat so that how things work is not important in those systems.
I had forgotten that TNE did things differently, which is inexcusable considering I am currently trying to convert TNE ship designs to HighGuard/T20
.Thanks for the reminder
Weapon ranges in MiGe are also much shorter than those found in Traveller. Battles apparently take place at ranges that allow pictures to be created with both opponents in view! Mentions are made of holos of the Empire's most famous battles being displayed and the ship's in them looking like colored beads connected by colored threads (a gaffe there, lasers wouldn't be visible). Also, against engaged vessels, small craft like the ones aboard MacArthur, are supposedly able to make 'torpedo' runs on enemy ships.
There is a space battle described in detail in the second of the Death world comilations of short stories . Most of the other stuff is rubbish but if trying to recreate a space battle in that universe that story would be a useful reference if you can get it from a library
There is a space battle described in detail in the second of the Death world comilations of short stories . Most of the other stuff is rubbish but if trying to recreate a space battle in that universe that story would be a useful reference if you can get it from a library
Andrew wrote:
"There is a space battle described in detail in the second of the Death world comilations of short stories . Most of the other stuff is rubbish but if trying to recreate a space battle in that universe that story would be a useful reference if you can get it from a library."
Sir,
That's the 1st Empire vs. Sauron battle off Tanith? The Sauron's kick off an operation that eventually locks them into a spiral of attrition they can't win?
I remember not being impressed be either the operational planning or actual tactics of those particular battles. The maths didn't work out in many cases. The idea that two opposing fleets would blithely orbit opposite sides of the same planet until an attack was scheduled is laughable. Also, MiGe weapon ranges may be short, but during one battle the opposing ships' Fields actually interpenetrate!
You're right about the series of books; 'War World', btw, 'Death World' is the Harry Harrison classic, being a collection of rubbish. They barely rise above the level of transoceanic airflight mind candy. Like the 'Thieve's World' series, Dr. Pournelle created a 'shared universe' set in his CoDo/MiGe future. Most of the stories aren't worth the ink or paper they're printed on; including a nepotistic piece of excrement penned by one of Dr. Pournelle's children that can best be described as 'Horatio Hornblower meets the Saurons'. (shudder) Believe me, I kid you not. IIRC, S.M. Stirling even 'ported a barely diguised version of his Draka into the series. Talk about a one-trick pony!
Sincerely,
Larsen
"There is a space battle described in detail in the second of the Death world comilations of short stories . Most of the other stuff is rubbish but if trying to recreate a space battle in that universe that story would be a useful reference if you can get it from a library."
Sir,
That's the 1st Empire vs. Sauron battle off Tanith? The Sauron's kick off an operation that eventually locks them into a spiral of attrition they can't win?
I remember not being impressed be either the operational planning or actual tactics of those particular battles. The maths didn't work out in many cases. The idea that two opposing fleets would blithely orbit opposite sides of the same planet until an attack was scheduled is laughable. Also, MiGe weapon ranges may be short, but during one battle the opposing ships' Fields actually interpenetrate!
You're right about the series of books; 'War World', btw, 'Death World' is the Harry Harrison classic, being a collection of rubbish. They barely rise above the level of transoceanic airflight mind candy. Like the 'Thieve's World' series, Dr. Pournelle created a 'shared universe' set in his CoDo/MiGe future. Most of the stories aren't worth the ink or paper they're printed on; including a nepotistic piece of excrement penned by one of Dr. Pournelle's children that can best be described as 'Horatio Hornblower meets the Saurons'. (shudder) Believe me, I kid you not. IIRC, S.M. Stirling even 'ported a barely diguised version of his Draka into the series. Talk about a one-trick pony!
Sincerely,
Larsen
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
Here's another suggested TRAVELLER defense shield, an article by Ken Pick.
Plantier Shields by Ken Pick
Plantier Shields by Ken Pick
Oh, all right, after that fantastic explanation, I'll try and work out the details and include it in my project. atm, I'm kicking myself for not being able to find my copy of MiGE, which has a lot of the details. But I dare say, you have expounded a lot more than I noticed (or remember noticing) when I read the book (10+ years ago), and I didn't recall the thing about the extra space battle.
An electromagnetic field could prove to be a alternate force field. Torpedos and missiles would be stoped before they impacted with the hull, and may detonate, but away from the ship reducing the damage taken. with some sort of despencers, you could launch debries into the shild from the ship that could impeed eneggy baised weapons or weapons unafected by the magnetic field. With higher TLs, you could controll the magnetic field to the degree that might make it possible to stop missiles further away, or bunch up mass in the field to stop energy baised weapons.
Granpafishy
SOC-12
I like that. As for the debris, you already have sandcasters that direct the 'sand', there could be your debris. I'm using something similar in my game.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Sand isn't usually magnetic but the reflective/ablative particles used by "sand" casters at the lower TLs are
.
Forever War has a type of shield. It consists of two planes of electromagnetism. The first field charges an object, and the 2nd layer spaced further back is of the same charge and pushes the charged object away. Obviously only good for missiles and probably plasma gun bursts. It may work against Particle accelerator shots.
Cheers
Richard
Cheers
Richard
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Electrostatic armour is mentioned in FF&S. The simple explanation is the armour is charged and connected to an accumulator, when a projectile touchs the armour the entire electrical charge is dumped through it and hopefully vaporises it. Effective against shaped charge warheads, plasma and fusion weapons, half effect on dense KEAP penetrators and of no use at all against lasers, particle beams and meson weapons.
