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All the German Nations

K

kapitan

SOC-7
For a campaign i am planning, i started putting togeather a "netbook" of sorts about the german nations, notably Germany, Freihafen, Heidelsheimat, Adlerhorst and Nibelungen. I will concentrate on Germany (for my campaign calls for it), but i.e. Freihafen has already been described perfectly on the great tirane website.
I will post my progress here, bit for bit, in case anyone might be interested in it and in hope, maybe, for some input, feedack, critics or errata (my english aint perfect)
 
Flags

For starters i designed flags for the german nations. not the most important or useful thing, i know, but i needed a german flag since in the long run i intend to design some ships for the DSKM and they need hull flags, right?
actually, i only wanted to design a german flag, but then i got carried away and desgned 20, one for each state and independent ex-colony.
take a look, if you'd like, and i'd be glad to read any comments.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3jdj2ctye29
 
Road to War

i started writing on the post twilight history of germany, but for that i would have to know something 'bout ww3 and its background. well since the original twilight scenario isnt applicable anymore, and i dont know of a actualized version, i wrote up my own.
i think, to keep the original twilight feeling, it should be a conflict between east and wes, and i thought the most likely opponents would be the shanghai cooperation organisation and (most of) nato, warring over recource interests.
i finished the first chapter, two pages describing the road to war.
you can, shoud you be interested, download it here:
link obsolete and removed. see updated version below

i would very much apreciate to hear opinions on weather this scenario sound believable or not.
 
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okay, a homebrewn history of the twilight war aint exactly 2320 stuff, but i finished it anyhow. i aint much of a strategist or anything, so i dont know how believable it sounds. my main intention was for my campaign to create a believable ww3, an enemy for nato that is strong enough to force his way into germany, and a reason why germany should join a ww3 (kinda got bad luck with world wars) when her closest ally, france, would remain neutral.
i post it here in case anyone might be interested:
link obsolete and removed. see updated version in post #20
 
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Your homebrew Twilight War reads very well to me - I particularly like the way you have the conflict starting in Africa, so linking to the (re-) emergence of French power there. A Sino-American conflict sounds like a plausible basis for a Twilight War in modern conditions. And your idea that a power that saw itself as a rival to America could play on populist anti-Americanism in many parts of the world strikes me as quite plausible.

The only slight niggle for me is the idea that Russia would declare war on America more or less on China's say-so. I don't think Russia and China are real allies - far from it. Here's a quick suggestion (I'm sure you and/or others could do better): Russia, seeing that the overstretched US is now engaged with China, decides to throw its weight around in Europe, maybe bullying the Baltics or even intervening in Ukraine. France is inclined to let them, seeing no vital French interest in defending the sovereignty of the east Europeans, and is anyway committed in Africa. But Germany, being nearer the threat and possibly feeling a historical debt to the East Europeans, can't just sit back and do nothing...
 
hey marchand, thanx for reading and evaluating it. guess you know how it is, when you write or plan something on your own and wonder if it makes sense to anýone else. so i am glad to hear that the general story seems to make enough sense. i'm especially glad that you aprove of the story how the emergance of the french empire already casts its shadow in the twilight war, since that was my goal to make this actually more twilight2000 than traveller2320 background link closer to traveller2320.
thinking about it i agree with you that i'd have to give the russians a more independant role. even though i vision the shanghai coalition more close in 2019 than today, its still gonna be a marriage of reason, not of love. russia is gonna have its own agenda in this, probably retaking its eastern european buffer for securing that border, since, after all, they face threats from all sides. maybe russia wants to use the sino-american war to that end. they wait to see if the rest of nato kicks in, and when they dont desides its "safe" to try. i am gonna change the text accordingly in the next couple of days.
for your suggestion towards germanys participation in the war, i had thought of these reasons, too. i just also kinda liked the gladio story, since this actually happened in the past (not nuklear, of coures. gladio bombed the octoberfest in ~1980 to support an ultra-conservative in winning the election. i think a dozent or so died). but the reasons you suggested are also valid, and i wasnt sure for wich to decide. maybe i am going to do an amalgam of both. did you think, the gladio-story sounded at all convincing?
 
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Gladio and German Entry into the Twilight War

I think an amalgum would work fine.

The German government WANTS to enter the war, but the people are not convinced, there is a strong Peace Movement in Germany.

The GLADIO incident is the excuse that the German government can use to enter the war against Russia (and maybe gain back some territory lost after WW2). After the GLADIO attack, the people are whipped up into a war frenzy, similar to what happened in the US after 911. That frenzy in the US was used to justify the attack on Iraq (Please don't flame, this is a historical observation only). In your history the GLADIO attack could be the catalyst that moves Germany against Russia.

Seems very plausible to me.
 
hi plankowner, thanx for your reply and input. yes, i guess i was kinda thinkin' of 911 when i wrote the GLADIO incident, its a good example how public opinion can change by such incidents. also, i assume that in the early stages of the conflict, a worldwide propaganda war would be fought, as both sides tried to rally their allies or potential allies. the gladio incident could be part of a broader strategy. pictures and reports of russian atrocities in poland would be published across germany (real or forged, who knows. remember the american-spanish war. "You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war.") maybe propaganda would call russian POW camps in poland "concentration camps", deliberately playing with german guilt complexes. this would seriously have weakened the peace movement. add (fake or real) reports that jewish citizens of the russian federation were imprisoned in russia on charges of espionage (because of the israeli involvement in the war), and the GLADIO incident would hardly be needed to bring the german population in line for war. it was the last bit, that caused public opinion to actually shift. i think this would actually work.
 
kapitan - I like the seal of the Sino-Russian pact did you make that yourself? Or is it from something else?

Overall, I think your intention was to write a Twilight-esque nuclear war scenario and I think in that, you succeeded in quite nicely.

I wanted to toss out some ideas on my own end (I've flirted with rewriting the 2300 timeline a few times to account for the lack of a Cold War turning hot myself) as well as a few observations:

* The Russians and the Chinese have never really been that great of allies or friends as nations. There's actually a few documented instances of Chinese and Russian border guards fighting each other on occasion during the Cold War in addition to the two "communist" nations engaging in quite a bit of a competition for influence. While a union between the two powers neatly "threats from the East" mentality in Europeans, I think some explanation should be made of why they've become closer. Perhaps an "understanding" might work - starting as essentially an economic co-operation to corner markets, especially on raw materials.

* Chinese divestiture of the American economy would probably hurt China quite badly - almost as bad as the United States, I think. Divestiture from the United States would certainly render the yuan as worthless as the dollar after such a blunder and make buying oil from OPEC pointless. While the rural areas of China haven't really seen any improvement in their lifestyle, trade with the West, in particular the United States, has made many of the coastal cities extremely wealthy (and powerful and influential because of that wealth). The people who live in such places, and more importantly, the military and political leaders who stand to benefit from taxing such trade or getting kickbacks/bribes would probably be very upset by such an end to the gravy train. In fact, a decision like that might lead to a coup d'etat or at least an attempt of one in China itself.

* It's unlikely that the United States would take the occupation Taiwan lying down. For the matter, the Taiwanese government wouldn't be likely to take Chinese occupation lying down, either. There would be shooting unless China did something very subtle (something I find unlikely in the 2020 timeframe). While a bloodless occupation of Taiwan by China might make an exhausted United States find some way to renege on treaty obligations, a Chinese attack on Taiwan would require a military response. One perhaps that would be much worse than the US imagined (the US traditionally underestimates and mis-reads the Chinese, which has led to a number of bloody noses on the part of the US, courtesy of the Chinese). An exhausted United States attempting to do a war on a shoestring against what they imagine to be some 1950s Chinese military still operating T-55s and without any "sustainable" blue water operations but finding a modern military instead would be a rude surprise for the US and probably would result in a lot of bodybags.

* A dedicated response by the Japanese as you've described seems a bit unlikely to me. While a lot of things might change by 2020, it seems more likely to me that the Japanese would waffle - perhaps letting the US use their airbases in Japan, but doing little else besides making constant appeals for all sides to come to the bargaining table. Japanese troops invading anywhere makes a great reason most of the Far East, in particular South Korea, to flock to China's banners and even an exhausted US would be likely to know this. However, if you plan to use 2300's Earth/Cybertech geopolitical map, Japan's waffling (and perhaps declaring neutrality over a furious United States) would put it in a good position for it's (slightly unrealistic to me) hegemony of the Far Eastern seas in 2300. Japan depends upon a very export-oriented economy, so the economic upheavals of war are likely to do as much damage as North Korean nuclear weapons. Such a lukewarm response by the government, followed by widespread suffering in Japan anyway might convince the Japanese that passive/pacifist stance isn't really any better than being belligerent and would go a long way to explaining why the more bellicose/assertive Japan of 2300.

* The GLADIO thing is pretty interesting, but it reminds me too much of a "relic of the Cold War coming back" thing ("General Borscht has secretly assembled a huge Soviet army and plans to bring communist dominion to the world!" "In the year 2007?" "Um...yeah!"). It's also a bit too neat for me. I like more muddled things with more shades of gray. I've noticed that besides talking about the War on Terror, you mention very little of Islamic fundamentalism. I think the two could be linked in some interesting fashion. After the detonation, the immediate candidates for such a weapon would be Islamic terrorists or the Russian/Chinese coalition (perhaps both). In reality, who did it wouldn't be necessary to know (as truth is secondary to propaganda) and given the chaos after the war, the truth would never be known. Nevertheless, such a fascinating episode in history would probably be endlessly analyzed (perhaps over analyzed). The accepted theory in 2300 would probably be that the bomb was planted by Islamic terrorists taking advantage of the chaos of the war, and perhaps given Russian/Chinese expertise and supplies and simply told to "go cause trouble." However, history buffs and conspiracy theorists might find tantalizing clues and strange coincidences that strongly suggest that parts of the German Federal Police knew the bombing was going to take place, but did nothing (why they did nothing would probably be open for debate - some people in 2300 would say that Federal Police wanted Germany in the war, while others would say as the bomb was hidden in a Turkish immigrant neighborhood, the site of a number of civic events associated with the fest that year as a sign of Turko-German friendship - but German that racism in the Federal Police had something the bomb not being found). Another compelling theory might be that German Federal Police knew that there would be a bomb but pro-war supporters in the police concealed the information as they were not aware it would be nuclear. Perhaps there's many in Germany in 2300 who would say that there was actually no bomb - citing the curious lack of radioactive fallout from the bomb and claiming it was actually an accident or sabotage in a liquefied natural gas pipeline (and of course they'd have maintenance documents and a "Herman Koepler" as an municipal utilities repairman who signed his name on the inspection but of course civil records would have no record of such a man working there - which conspiracy buffs would point to as a saboteur but it's equally as likely the records were just lost - after all there are people who believe firmly that the moon landings were a joke).
 
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The Shanghai Cooperation Organization is very real. At their last meeting(or was it their first? I'm not sure how old it is) was when comrade Putin announced resumption of Bear flights to the edge of US airspace, possibly with nukes.

It's a pretty serious thing, and doesn't bode well for a US bogged down in pointless little wars all over the place.

I doubt if Russia would enter the Twilight War at the behest of China, but they could go along for their own purposes. I don't think Pootie Poot is at all happy about a NATO Poland.

This is about as reasonable as any Tom Clancy scenario, and has rather less of the cartoonish super-villainy than the 9-11 scenario.

The one problem I have with these early parts of future history(besides the rather nasty habit they have of becoming dated) is the difficulty of avoiding political discussions.
 
I hadn't heard of GLADIO. I admit, I'm fairly old-fashioned in that I like to think about international affairs in terms of national interests. It makes this kind of speculation game more fun for me to impose a little constraint on myself - as much as possible to be explained through rational state actors pursuing national interests. But 9/11 showed us what effects random fanaticism (not to mention sheer evil) can have. So, whatever works for you!

2 more thoughts:

1) In terms of the Middle East and Iran's entry into the war, I don't think the conservative Gulf monarchies would take it lying down. This could make the entire Gulf and Arabian peninsula a warzone; France would then have a peacekeeping role to play after the fighting ends (as per original 2300 timeline, I believe).

2) I hope you plan to extend this timeline further towards 2300!
 
hey guys, thanx a lot for your replies and input.
@epicenter00: [sorry epicenter, at first i adressed the wrong person here. but i just mixed up the handles, i didnt mix up you ;-)]
thank you very much for your very thorough analysis and input.
first to answer your question: as sadwillow already stated, the shanghai organization is real, the seal is their current seal (note that the picture of the member states includes taiwan as part of china) and i simply took it from wikipedia. it was founded in 1996,consists of russia, china, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, with iran, pakistan and mongolia having applied for membership, and its members hold large scale maneuvers together more or less regularly, sending thousands of troops cross thousands of miles, probably to gain expriance in geopolitical intervention. latge parts of the sino-russian military are currently beeing transformed into an intervention army. for further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation
let me reply to your other inputs, in some cases explaining some of the background i had thought about (but didnt go into in the text), in some cases trying to amalgam your ideas into the text (hoping on your help and response in that):
* The Russians and the Chinese ...
Click to expand...
i agree that the sino-russian doest seem like a love on first sight, especially since they have (or may develop) unsolved issues in sibereria. but they have been allys for over 10 years now, and the alliance grows increasingly stronger recently. they both have too much to gain: russia will be a valuably supplier of fossil fuels and is chinas only source of high tech military equipment. on the other side, russia will gain greately from chinas constantly growing defense spendings. chinas defense budget may surpass the us' within the next decade (at least in ppp). also, the us anti-missile shield might bring them togeather even more closely. i will add some of that in the text, and also describe in a few words that russia has its own agenda in this in the next version (maybe this weekend)
* Chinese divestiture of the American economy ...
Click to expand...
mmmhhh... i dont disagree with that. maybe i'll take out that "china buys all the oil" plot, was a little two-dimensional anyhow, i think. the economic attack on the us is quite real, though, i think, and i think china is much better prepared for this than the us. i once spoke to a chines who worked for the chinese defense ministy for ~30 years (and pretty well paied, too, so i guess he isnt too low ranking) and he said he firmly believes the chinese government is fully prepared to "go back to the 50s" (referring to the chinese economy) in case of a war i.e. over taiwan. (they are a lot less secretive about these matters today, a sign of their new self confidence).
also i think you underestimate that the vast majority of the new chinese middle and upper class is very nationalistic. if you talk to highly educated chinese yuppie 'bout taiwan these days, most will boldly cry out for war in case of "secession".
* It's unlikely that the United States would take the occupation Taiwan lying down....
Click to expand...
i dont assume taiwan accepted occupation, but picture there was a war (inter alias a way for china to test its new muscle and gain combat experience). in this scenario i assumed the us not intervening militarily for they were already vastly overstretched, and suffered from the cost for the iraq war (500 billion up to now, maybe 800-900 by then). the reason was mainly because i think the chinese would test the us before risking a real confrontation, i wanted to create a situation similar like wenn germany felt encouraged by beeing allowed to annex checheslovakia. do you think it sounds totally unrealistic that the us wouldnt get involved in taiwan?
* A dedicated response by the Japanese ...
Click to expand...
yeah, i wasnt too happy with japans involvement, either. thats why i took them out only a few months into the war. maybe japan half heartedly supported us with ist air force and navy, but no ground troops. japan does view china as major threat today, and is even rethinking its "no-nukes" policy and is building aircraft carriers, but still ...
anyhow, i think how little the japanese involvement might be, north korea would try to nuke them before their regime falls, just to "make the point".
* The GLADIO thing is pretty ...
Click to expand...
i already changed the gladio-scenario into beeing only one of several theories (even though beeing the one favoured by most historians in 2320) in the current texts i work on.
but do you really think the gladio sounds too much cold war? i dont want to do this "general borshtsh" mistake. but the chiefs of staffts of the 2010s were first lieutenants or captains in germany in the 1980s ...
and nato has a very longs standing tradition of using terrorist attacks (from the 50s to the 90s) on their own population to bring them in line against the enemy (no, i am not a conspiracy theorist ;-) the gladio episode isdocumented) dont you think nato would remember these methods and experiences, if the need arose anew?

@sadwillow
The one problem I have with these early parts of future history(besides the rather nasty habit they have of becoming dated) is the difficulty of avoiding political discussions.
Click to expand...
*grin* yep, i guess the probelm of getting outdated is the bane of any good apocalypse ;-) if the twilight 2000 is to be republished, they'll probably have to renew the destruction of the world on a yearly basis. sme kinda "anual apocalypse update".
but i seriously hope this doesnt end up in some kind of political discussion. we are all gamers, after all, and this is for fun.


@marchand
1) In terms of the Middle East ...
Click to expand...
mmmhhh, you are right, i hadnt though of that. i pretty much left most of the middle east out, for i really dont know how to fit them into that. there is absolutely no connection between the shanghai org. and the islamists. would the golf monarchies be strong enough to oppose shanghai backed iran? any suggestions/input?

2) I hope you plan to extend this timeline further towards 2300!
Click to expand...
i will, and am working on it. the rest will be more centered on germany, though, since that was my original intention. first thing will be a wikipedia style article about germany in 2320, with references to "read main article: history of ...", and the various main articles will be second.
i'll see where it leads. actually i am preparing a campaign centered around the german secret service from 2292 to 2320, but if there is interest i'll do it more thouroughly (and in my crappy english) and continue posting it here.
 
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kapitan said:
hey guys, thanx a lot for your replies and input.
@sadwillow

*grin* yep, i guess the probelm of getting outdated is the bane of any good apocalypse ;-) if the twilight 2000 is to be republished, they'll probably have to renew the destruction of the world on a yearly basis. sme kinda "anual apocalypse update".
but i seriously hope this doesnt end up in some kind of political discussion. we are all gamers, after all, and this is for fun.
Click to expand...

The Twilight 2000++ history will have to be put up on a website with continuous updates.

I'm all for political discussion. It's the flame wars I can do without.

kapitan said:
@marchand

mmmhhh, you are right, i hadnt though of that. i pretty much left most of the middle east out, for i really dont know how to fit them into that. there is absolutely no connection between the shanghai org. and the islamists. would the golf monarchies be strong enough to oppose shanghai backed iran? any suggestions/input?


i will, and am working on it. the rest will be more centered on germany, though, since that was my original intention. first thing will be a wikipedia style article about germany in 2320, with references to "read main article: history of ...", and the various main articles will be second.
i'll see where it leads. actually i am preparing a campaign centered around the german secret service from 2292 to 2320, but if there is interest i'll do it more thouroughly (and in my crappy english) and continue posting it here.
Click to expand...

Please do. Your English is quite good, better than many Americans on the net of lies, and much better than my German. I'm not sure what, "scheisskopf," means, but apparently I am one.
 
Scheist is feces. (roughly.)
Kopf is head.

Not something to admit to being...

:)
 
Political Discussion or T:2000 Possibilities

I think that this discussion so far is NOT political. It is about the What If's and What's Plausible given the world as we know it, or postulate it to be in a few years.

As long as we don't move much beyond that, we are fine. I actually like the tone that this discussion has taken and the non-pulpit nature of the discussions.

Keep up the good work!
 
"*grin* yep, i guess the probelm of getting outdated is the bane of any good apocalypse ;-)"

- I like that!

"@marchand

mmmhhh, you are right, i hadnt though of that. i pretty much left most of the middle east out, for i really dont know how to fit them into that. there is absolutely no connection between the shanghai org. and the islamists. would the golf monarchies be strong enough to oppose shanghai backed iran? any suggestions/input?"

As you say, Iran is an observer of SCO. My understanding is that Saudi Arabia would like to be strong enough to oppose any expansion of Iranian influence in the region, and one of the big worries about a nuclear Iran is that Saudi would want to go nuclear almost immediately in response. Not only is Saudi very rich in dollar terms right now, but their population is growing strongly. So, in all, I think there is sufficient grounding in contemporary developments to justify an Arab/Persian front in your rewritten Twilight War, opening the door to the French intervention in the Middle East that we saw in the original 2300 timeline.

P.S. I think your post above gave me credit for a lot of epicenter00's contribution.
 
new version

hey guys, thanx again for your feedback!
i worked a little on the apocalypse, and just uploaded a new version, where i tried to incorporate your input. if you are still interested, you can find it here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ci94dccz3dn

@ sadwillow
Please do. Your English is quite good
Click to expand...
thanx for the compliment :) still, should anyone of you help correct one of my worse germanisms or improve some of my more awkward phrasings, i would be much obliged.
Well dang. I thought those people liked me.
:sniffle:
Click to expand...
hey, nobody actually called you that, did they?!?!?!? otherwise i could teach you some fine german insults to reply ;-)

@aramis
Scheist is feces. (roughly.)
Kopf is head.
Click to expand...
but then, lets hope no minors are present ... *grin*

@plankowner
I actually like the tone that this discussion has taken and the non-pulpit nature of the discussions.
Click to expand...
i agree. i was just cautious since i am new to this forum and i am not very active in forums in general (this is the second i joined, i am old fashioned i guess). when i read some other forums, i was deterred at times, but i like the constructive tone around here.

@marchand
As you say, Iran is an observer of SCO ...
Click to expand...
yes, you are right. i just refrained from including that since i really dont see thru the middle east (then, who does?). i tried something in the new version, what do you think?

I think your post above gave me credit for a lot of epicenter00's contribution
Click to expand...
oops, sorry, i mixed up the hadles (copy and paste frees you from thinking ;-)
 
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