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Alienating Your Vilani Pronunciation

Supposedly the Vilani were removed from Earth about 300,000 BP. At that point, human language on Earth was not to arise for at least two hundred millenna, by current estimates. Hell, there's reasonable doubt that that Homo sapiens was even available for Yaskodray to hoik up off to Vland.

So need Vilani sound anything like a Solomani language? In the pursuit of optimized perverseness, I say NO!

Canonically, Vilani has the consonants transcribed as <p b d k g s z sh kh r l m n>. I have some... rather different suggestions on how those could actually be pronounced.

The series <p b m> are not bilabial, as we've assumed. They're labiodentals. In other words, pronounced with the same articulatory gesture as English /f/ or /v/ -- but, in Vilani, they are stops, not fricatives. English actually does have a labiodental nasal -- it's the allophone of /m/ before an /f/ in normal speech, for example "comfort" or "symphony". In Vilani, though, it's the normal pronunciation.

The series <d n> are also not dental-alveolar; they're linguolabials. That is, the tip of the tongue reaches forward and forms a closure against the upper lip. Acoustically, to an English speaker, they can sound like a frustrating mixture of "d" and "b".

<s z>, well, I haven't thought of anything too special for them yet. <sh> I suggest is a strongly retroflex sibilant; specifically a subapical palatal sibilant -- i.e., the tongue curls back so far that it is the bottom of the tip of the tongue that makes contact against the palate.

Likewise, <r> is a subapical palatal approximant (or perhaps tap/flap) -- the tongue does not make (full/sustained) contact with the palate.

<l> is a velar lateral approximant. Not a velarized lateral, mind you, but a proper velar approximant (without lip-rounding/compression, either). The tongue does not make contact with the upper surface of the mouth anywhere except at the velum, way there in the back. You hear it in some American dialects' pronunciation of the "l" in words like "clay" or "glad" (voiceless and voiced, respectively). A lovely sound.

<k g> are still awaiting their exoticization. I suppose they could be left as conventional velar stops. Though it might be fun to present them as palatal stops, or uvular stops, instead; or perhaps as voiceless and voiced fricatives (respectively).

<kh> is my favorite, though. It's not a velar or uvular fricative like people used to think. No, it's a voiceless bidental fricative! Clamp your teeth together, pull your lips apart, flatten your tongue, and blow. (Works better if you have an underbite or overbite, to get the sweet sh~f combination; otherwise it comes out as a slightly whistly "h" sound.)

You'll note that this doesn't involve freaky pharyngeal or epiglottal points of articulation, nor glottalized/ejective/ingressive stops, much less clicks. It's actually easy for the average speaker of S.A.E. to pronounce, after some practice. So why not spice up your boring old Vilani nomenclature in your Traveller game with some extremely funny accent?

(I have not talked about vowels and the dreaded subject of tones... yet...)
 
Supposedly the Vilani were removed from Earth about 300,000 BP. At that point, human language on Earth was not to arise for at least two hundred millenna, by current estimates. Hell, there's reasonable doubt that that Homo sapiens was even available for Yaskodray to hoik up off to Vland.

Wrong. There's no doubt whatsoever, reasonable or not. There may be doubt about the existence of archaic Homo sapiens 300,000 years ago in our own universe, but our universe and the Traveller universe differ in some particulars. One particular is that there is no doubt that archaic Homo sapiens (known to Imperial scientists as Homo sapiens antiquus did exist 300,000 years ago. How else could Yaskoydray have hoiked some of them off to Vland?


Hans
 
The homo sapiens Omo Remains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omo_remains) are about 195,000 years old.

Hey, there's no reason to doubt that, if Grandfather wasn't completely satisfied with the species when he found them, that he didn't do something that wouldn't change the entire population.

So he channeled the evolutionary processes of the entire species, regardless of location.

How's that for scary?
 
Hey, there's no reason to doubt that, if Grandfather wasn't completely satisfied with the species when he found them, that he didn't do something that wouldn't change the entire population.

I have a reason. I really, really, really dislike that idea.

I'm much happier with either saying that present-day theories about when Homo sapiens first showed up are wrong and the theories the GDW writers knew about 30 years ago are right (These are, after all, only theories; how do you prove that Homo Sap wasn't around 300,000 years ago?) or alternatively (if someone do manage to prove it) that in the OTU those 30 year old theories were indeed correct.


Hans
 
I have a reason. I really, really, really dislike that idea.

It seems in character for Grandfather, though, and it is even in character for Traveller uber-high technology.

I'd say it's just as likely as a 300kya Homo Sapiens Idaltu.

Of course, neither of us is arguing canon at this point, we're just fanboys trying to rationalize it.

[...] in the OTU those 30 year old theories were indeed correct.

...which is similar (of course, not the same) to saying that Grandfather manipulated reality.
 
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Getting back to the OP, I'd love to alienate my Vilani pronunciation, but I'm unable to turn the linguistic directions. ("Labiodentals? Fricatives? I'd like my labiodental medium well, with only a side of fricatives.") Would it be out of the question for somebody to put up mp3s or wav files of someone more skilled sounding these things out? I'd do it myself, but it'd be a little like having the little Dutch boy design your hydroelectric plant...
 
Re: the flavor(s?) of Homo that Yaskodray & Sons, Inc. took away from Earth, Hans's solution is entirely reasonable and effective. Personally, I don't like it.

First, because I spent too many years in anthropology, and take the realism and accuracy in that field to be as vital to my enjoyment of the game/setting as the engineers, comp sci, gunfondlers, physicsts, etc. do with their own domains.

Secondly, and more importantly, because it's way more interesting and fun to have the Ancient-derived M.H. "races" be more remotely related to Solomani humans.

Re: Vilani pronunciation, there are probably audio files around on the WWW, likely in linguistic department websites at various unis. Maybe Wikipedia? I should check on that. I don't think the microphone on my computer is good enough to get worthwhile recordings, but I'll give it a shot later.
 
So Vilani are Homo heidelbergensis? :D Always knew I preferred Solomani for some reason!
 
Secondly, and more importantly, because it's way more interesting and fun to have the Ancient-derived M.H. "races" be more remotely related to Solomani humans.
Whereas I think that other human races that are interfertile with the people of Earth is a lot more interesting and fun.

You do have more remotely related Minor Human Races, such as the Dynchia and the Luriani. But the Vilani (and several other MHRs) are explicitly said to be interfertile with modern Solomani, that is to say, Homo sapiens sapiens. Indeed, it is an integral part of the history of the OTU. And as long as you have just two populations of Homo sapiens that have spent 300,000 years apart and are nevertheless interfertile, you are left with two possible explanations: a) Their latest common ancestor was already Homo sapiens or b) the two speciece have evolved by convergent evolution to become interfertile.

I'm very far from having spent a lot of time with anthropology, but I do know enough about biology to prefer virtually any explanation to one that involves convergent evolution of that kind.

(And, yes, I am very firmly and deliberately ignoring the possibility that Yaskoydray tampered with the hominids he left behind on Terra. As far as I'm concerned, he grabbed some to experiment with and left the rest behind. Some of his kids grabbed groups of their own, but none of them bothered to tinker with the stock on Earth itself.).


Hans
 
So Vilani are Homo heidelbergensis? :D Always knew I preferred Solomani for some reason!

IMTU, the Vilani are a separate species within the genus Homo, one that does not and never did exist on Earth -- they evolved separately on Vland (with or without Ancient tinkering) from some flavor of Homo erectus. There were presumably other, now-extinct, intermediate species between the transplanted Homo erectus and modern "Homo vlandensis".

Likewise, the Geonee, Suerrat, Darrians, Zhodani, Answerin, Azhanti, et al. are each a distinct species of human.

As much as it would be fun to have some of them actually be uplifted hominoids -- e.g., the Suerrat are gibbon-people (Symphalangus sapiens)! The Geonee, chimp-men (Pan khuzdulii)! -- it's a little too twee for my taste. (At the moment.) So they're all Homos. Yes, even Norris and Dilgaadin!
 
Whereas I think that other human races that are interfertile with the people of Earth is a lot more interesting and fun.

Heh. With different end-points as our goals, it's not surprising we're envisioning different histories to base them on :)

But the Vilani (and several other MHRs) are explicitly said to be interfertile with modern Solomani, that is to say, Homo sapiens sapiens. Indeed, it is an integral part of the history of the OTU. And as long as you have just two populations of Homo sapiens that have spent 300,000 years apart and are nevertheless interfertile, you are left with two possible explanations: a) Their latest common ancestor was already Homo sapiens or b) the two speciece have evolved by convergent evolution to become interfertile.

Or... the biologically-sophisticated Terrans, back in the Interstellar Wars or the early Rule of Man, gene-tinkered the Vilani to be interfertile with Terrans. To make their women impregnable with decent human babies, and breed the backwards dead-end Vilani right out of existence! The allegation if not the reality of biological warfare against the First Imperium is already canon... ;)

I'm very far from having spent a lot of time with anthropology, but I do know enough about biology to prefer virtually any explanation to one that involves convergent evolution of that kind.

I completely agree.

(And, yes, I am very firmly and deliberately ignoring the possibility that Yaskoydray tampered with the hominids he left behind on Terra. As far as I'm concerned, he grabbed some to experiment with and left the rest behind. Some of his kids grabbed groups of their own, but none of them bothered to tinker with the stock on Earth itself.).

And I agree with this too!

I only differ in being perfectly content with the various Ancient-scattered human populations not being interfertile.
 
Would it be out of the question for somebody to put up mp3s or wav files of someone more skilled sounding these things out? I'd do it myself, but it'd be a little like having the little Dutch boy design your hydroelectric plant...

Still trying to figure out my recording capabilities on a 5-year-old iMac with no speshul peripherals. Tech advice is welcome.

Assuming Dutch boys keep their fingers out of this dyke; natch :p
 
Ah, Classic, we miss you so.

Still trying to figure out my recording capabilities on a 5-year-old iMac with no speshul peripherals. Tech advice is welcome.

Assuming Dutch boys keep their fingers out of this dyke; natch :p
Remember back in the Classic Mac OS you could just do that with a widget that you could just stuff in the Control Bar. I miss those days. *sigh* So much native coolness just abandoned in OS X.

Still you think there should be an Application that would let you use the base Sound Input you use for Voice Commands. That would be the first thing I would look into. Also, nice to have is a external mic, but you should be able to use the internal if you don't.

Well, off to hit the rack.

Laterness,
Craig.
 
Remember back in the Classic Mac OS you could just do that with a widget that you could just stuff in the Control Bar. I miss those days. *sigh* So much native coolness just abandoned in OS X.

Still you think there should be an Application that would let you use the base Sound Input you use for Voice Commands. That would be the first thing I would look into. Also, nice to have is a external mic, but you should be able to use the internal if you don't.

Well, off to hit the rack.

Laterness,
Craig.

??? I have a MAC OSX computer which has a voice-control-widget! And it isn't even a relatively new one!
 
Classic, you know OS <9.

??? I have a MAC OSX computer which has a voice-control-widget! And it isn't even a relatively new one!
As I said that was in Classic Mac OS, you used to be able to just record stuff, but it has been a while and I am not digging out the PowerBook 540 to remember how.

Also, I checked my System Preferences (in OS X) and didn't see anything but Speech.

At this point, I would look to an Application.
 
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There was a sound recorder in OS9's utilities.

It's not in OSX, but if running OSX 10.1 or 10.2 with Classic support, you can still run it. (In many ways, I, too, miss MacOS 9. It really was a better OS to work with.)

You can find a 3rd party app for OS X pretty easily, tho'.
 
As I said that was in Classic Mac OS, you used to be able to just record stuff, but it has been a while and I am not digging out the PowerBook 540 to remember how.

Also, I checked my System Preferences (in OS X) and didn't see anything but Speech.

At this point, I would look to an Application.

It's a circle-shaped small object that sits at the corner of your screen when you have a relevant application on and is activated with the Escape key, and interprets your speech while you have the Esc key held down.
 
Yep.

It's a circle-shaped small object that sits at the corner of your screen when you have a relevant application on and is activated with the Escape key, and interprets your speech while you have the Esc key held down.
Yeah, now if you only had a relevant Application then you could probably do it.

And my Cousin Aramis, I think we should start a Bring Back Classic Mac OS group like the Bring Back the LLB for T5 group. :devil:


Back to the OP, dude, I am really waiting to hear your interpretation of Vilani. Rob had a copy floating around of the phonetics (?) for the language, but not being a language nerd like him I can't quite get my head around the sounds. Too damned American and not as well travelled as I could be also is probably part of the problem.

I decided I would hunt them down, here they are: Vilani Phonics. Rob has tons of Vilani tools and toys.
 
I would love for a Classic OS option, seriously. One of the few games I've ever really enjoyed was pre-X-gen: Cythera.

Re: Vilani audio files; sorry. Been under the weather recently and preoccupied otherwise. Will dig into the guts of this handsome but late-generation beast on my coffee table, and will see what recording options I have without having to acquire any more frelling pieces of fracking hardware crap. [Edit: if someone has pointers for OSX 10.6, I would gladly accept them -- at the moment, it's all 'too much ⌧ing fussing to ⌧ with' for me.

Would need to practice more with my latest take on Vilani 'tonology' -- it's not too weirdly or difficultly tonal, or anything; but it's just not like the system of any language I've ever personally tried to speak, or tried to listen to, before. It gets confusing; I fall back on the familiar.

(Because Vilani aren't Homo sapiens!!! Nyah, nyah, nyah, Hans! ;) )

And yes: Rob has put together the biggest compilation of Vilani language materials in the Known Universe. He has more than I do, and at one point I figured I was the boss of that scene. Seriously, it's an awesome compilation of incredibly obscure pedantry! :-D

[Edit #2: How many of you knew that Peter Ladefoged, one of the preeminent Solomani phoneticians right up to the recent day, was the inspiration for and consultant to the unfortunate film adaptation of that nauseous musical "My Fair Lady"? And, that few of even his own students were really certain about how his surname was supposed to be pronounced? [Those Danes, man... nothing but trouble ;) ]
 
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