Alien Sex Gods (caution: Mature topic)

[rancke]

Well, not being a scientist, but merely an interested student, I go with morphology and the difference in DNA, sort of like chimps which share 98% of their DNA with us humans, yet no one calls them human (though based on the culture, tool use, making war, and of course their enjoyment of those human tendencies for murder and rape one could say they are pretty damned close to human by more than just chemical makeup).

As for morphology, chihuahuas and St. Bernards are both the same subspecies, as are pygmies and those very tall people whose name I forget. As for difference in DNA, chimp's and humans are not capable of having fertile offspring, no doubt due to the 2% difference in DNA. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While there are cases where that definition is problematical, I wonder what would make Neanderthals capable of interbreeding with Cro-Magnons be one of those cases. Other than a preexisting determination to regard them as a separate species, what objective grounds are there for this view?

(The wikipedia article I read says that a majority of biologists consider them a separate species, but it doesn't say what that is based on (unless I missed it; I just skimmed the article)).


Hans

 

[sabredog]

Well, not being a scientist, but merely an interested student, I go with morphology and the difference in DNA, sort of like chimps which share 98% of their DNA with us humans, yet no one calls them human (though based on the culture, tool use, making war, and of course their enjoyment of those human tendencies for murder and rape one could say they are pretty damned close to human by more than just chemical makeup).

mmmm...maybe its really that we share 98% of our DNA with them?

Actually, that 98% thing has always been taken wrong because people don't understand how genetics works. Seriously, we all have the same four base proteins with a few add-ons depending on some small variables. But basically every animal on Earth has the same four DNA components. The chains differ in length - and that is the primary way greater complexity and variation is allowed for in animals, but since we all have the same building blocks it is easy to say we share darn near 90% of the same DNA with nearly every mammal that exists. We also share about 30-50% of our DNA with plants. Rodents, primates, canids..... they all have 90-99% of the same DNA as we do - depending on what you are looking for.

Its like the difference between a Ford Mustang today vs. an original '64 1/2: they are both Mustangs, they both share the same evolutionary lineage and DNA, but they are in the end very different animals that cannot interbreed true. You could swap engines and such - with effort, they both use the same gas - but one runs better on one kind than the other and vice versa, and they are both made of the same basic materials. But really they are far and away different in the end and not much in either really matches up equally except eh most fundamental processes and structures.

BTW: the reason pigs are used to experiment in growing new organs for transplant into humans is because we share 98% of the same DNA with them, too. It meshes closely enough in places that we can do the organ thing - but it is far from perfect. And pigs aren't even on the same evolutionary branch as we are.

Oh, and I was using this article (fascinating article, too) a while back to work up some evolutionary processes in one of MTU's new alien races for my upcoming campaign where transgenic chaos is part of the story arc. It shows how we even share nearly 70% of the same DNA expression in our eyes as an octopus has. That shows how much DNA any given species shares depends a lot on where you are looking and what you are looking for.
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/14/8/1555.long

 

[sabredog]

Oh hey....I saw this on i09 a couple days ago! Highly pertinent to the thread as it works out some of the 'moves' a desperately adventurous traveller would have to master.

http://kotaku.com/tentacle-alien-sex-card-game-isnt-as-perverted-as-youd-1638675233

 

[aramis]

If we know that (which I hadn't heard that we do¹), then we also know that Neanderthals are not a distinct species of human but a subspecies of Homo sapiens, namely Homo sapiens neanderthalensis capable of interbreeding with Homo sapiens sapiens.

¹ I know that it has been a subject of debate for decades, but I didn't know that the debate had been resolved.​

As for Zhodani, early library data states that they are H. sapiens [LDNZ:32], so they are capable of interbreeding with other human subspecies. However, they find the idea very distasteful and claim to be Homo zhdotlas, a different species; they are nevertheless Homo sapiens zhdotlas, merely a different subspecies.


Hans

Actually, Hans, the ability to interbreed is no longer the definition for subspecies versus species. That definition was deprecated 20 years ago.

The definition for species is much blurrier than it used to be, and involves stable populations and isolation. Essentially, it boils down to "breeds true, has a distinct population, and does not routinely breed outside its grouping"

In part, because they don't want to be redefining dozens of species. In part, because it's not clear cut in several cases.

Most of the big cats can interbreed; Leopards, Lions and Tigers are capable of viable hybrid offspring, but I've not heard of any being allowed to breed, so reproductive viability isn't known. Another viability group is Felis familiaris, Felis sylvestris, Lynx lynx, and Lynx canadensis all can produce reproductively viable offspring. Not all offspring in the latter group are viable, and not all viable individuals are reproductively viable.

And then Canids... Foxes, Coyotes, and Wolves are all separate species, but can, again, produce viable offspring, and some of those are reproductively viable.

And then there are "ring species" - several cases exist of a group of 3-6 subspecies which are able to reproduce with their neighbors, but not with their neighbors' neighbors, exist. The traditional definition would rule that a 4 species ring is actually 2 separate species. Under the modern, that none of them is an isolated breeding population means they're all one species, in 4 subspecies.

H. neanderthalensis DNA has been sequenced. It's been compared. It's clearly distinct from H. sapiens, but certain traits of modern H. sapiens genetics do not appear prior to 50KYA, but are in H neanderthalensis.

We know that H. neanderthalensis was a stable population in isolation for 70ky - and that's sufficient for a species definition.

Hell, Urus maritimus (polar) is a separate species from Urus arctos (grizzly). But they produce reproductively viable offspring... but generally do not interact. And generally, a female polar bear won't accept a male grizzly, unless there are no male grizzlies around. Distinct diets, distinct habitats, multiple biomorphic adaptations... but still able to interbreed.

 

[sabredog]

Hybridization is also no guarantee of healthy offspring, either. That is why Ligers are not bred - the chances are greater for them to not have healthy offspring than if more Ligers are just hybridized off existing tiger/lion pairs.

Two aline species might be able to interbreed and produce offspring, but the offspring could be prone to all sorts of genetic and immune response disorders. Deformities and other physical problems could be common, with the rare healthy offspring being the exception.

 

[rancke]

Actually, Hans, the ability to interbreed is no longer the definition for subspecies versus species. That definition was deprecated 20 years ago.

In that case it hadn't been deprecated when LDNZ and other Traveller sources were written, so the definition used then would have been the old definition. And since it had happened when GT: Humaniti expounded on the definition in 2003, Imperial scientists have evidently gone back to that old definition.

The definition for species is much blurrier than it used to be, and involves stable populations and isolation. Essentially, it boils down to "breeds true, has a distinct population, and does not routinely breed outside its grouping"

Since that definition would make several known latter-day human groups different species (at least until they met), I'm not all that inclined to take it seriously.


Hans

 

[JimMarn]

As for morphology, chihuahuas and St. Bernards are both the same subspecies, as are pygmies and those very tall people whose name I forget.

Hans

Masai is the group you are likely thinking of.

 

[mike wightman]

Better yet - denisovians, neanderthals and cro-magnon were all inter-fertile.

 

[JimMarn]

I have decided to go with a 'carnivorous plant' for a new race in my galaxy.

One part of the plant is a large bush, it can move, but only very slowly. The other part of the plant looks like a blond human woman from a distance.

I haven't decided yet which part is the lure for the carnivorous plant...

 

[Silver]

Best rule of thumb, insofar as I tend to run my Traveller universes (or most other scifi games with aliens in them) is that most mammalian species that share an environment can have intercourse, but they have to be pretty closely related to interbreed.

In Third Imperium-specific games, this means that the variants of Humaniti can interbreed, but a Human/(Non-Human) couple would have to adopt if they wanted kids. Cross-species relationships are, at best, not spoken of in polite company (the same way one wouldn't talk about being in the BDSM lifestyle in real life). Never mind the reactions one would likely get in the Aslan Heirate or the Solomani Conferdation...

 

[Jason M Durkish]

Best rule of thumb, insofar as I tend to run my Traveller universes (or most other scifi games with aliens in them) is that most mammalian species that share an environment can have intercourse, but they have to be pretty closely related to interbreed.

In Third Imperium-specific games, this means that the variants of Humaniti can interbreed, but a Human/(Non-Human) couple would have to adopt if they wanted kids. Cross-species relationships are, at best, not spoken of in polite company (the same way one wouldn't talk about being in the BDSM lifestyle in real life). Never mind the reactions one would likely get in the Aslan Heirate or the Solomani Conferdation...

Could they make use of genetic science technology ?
Because in my universe they can .

 

[rancke]

Could they make use of genetic science technology ?

Sure, but not to create half-aslan, half-human hybrids. It might be possible to graft a bit of Aslan DNA onto a human gene or vice versa, but that would be the extent of it.


Hans

 

[Silver]

Could they make use of genetic science technology ?
Because in my universe they can .

Normally, no. The kind of genetic sciences necessary isn't something that exists in most of my campaigns, at least for civilization writ large. There might be an ancient facility or artifact that would allow it, perhaps. I can't see Grandfather wanting to meddle again (At least in a way that would be so public), but there might be an Ancient hospital out there in working condition that could manage a hybrid between infants.

That said, I've run games where the Ancients were closer to the Engineers/Space Jockeys in the Alien verse; their tech is primarily organic, but it tends to do unpleasant things to ordinary human beings. Making cross-species pregnancy possible is absolutely trivial for them, though.

That said, I would point to this quote from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri as to my general guideline:

"Remember, genes are NOT blueprints. This means you can't, for example, insert "the genes for an elephant's trunk" into a giraffe and get a giraffe with a trunk. There are no genes for trunks. What you CAN do with genes is chemistry, since DNA codes for chemicals. For instance, we can in theory splice the native plants' talent for nitrogen fixation into a terran plant."
-Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "Nonlinear Genetics"

 

[Jason M Durkish]

Cool it gave me some ideas on how to handle interspecies relationships and what would be needed to create a hybrid .