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Alien Languages (food for thought)

Try imagining learning hieroglyphics without something like the Rosetta Stone. Or deciphering Cretan Linear A.

Edit Note: I have studied hieroglyphics, and still have all of my books. One problem is that the meaning of some of them changed over the course of 2,000 years, and some went obsolete. Then, of course, there is about 1,000 of them to know.
 
I doubt whether a language exists which doesn't have something that fills the place of nouns. But if you're a referee and none of your players are linguists, you can tell them that a particular alien language lacks nouns, then watch them flail about, because it seems to me that that DOES create a situation where a language is incomprehensible to most of us.

I remember an episode of ST:TNG where the Enterprise encountered a vessel from another race, and the translator was doing it's job with their words, but the other race referred to everything using metaphors. Interesting concept, but it was messy. Even if that was a primary means of communication, they'd need the normal structure of language to describe the first even that became referential. It seems too complicated for regular use.
 
I remember an episode of ST:TNG where the Enterprise encountered a vessel from another race, and the translator was doing it's job with their words, but the other race referred to everything using metaphors. Interesting concept, but it was messy. Even if that was a primary means of communication, they'd need the normal structure of language to describe the first even that became referential. It seems too complicated for regular use.

Darmok and Jhalad at Tanagra. I liked that episode for that reason. Picard told his alien counterpart about Enkidu and Gilgamesh at Uruk.
 
On a standard language alien race, they will need a language of international navigation, A language of international diplomacy, a language of international commerce, A Language of Scientific & Technical Exchange and a core language protocol for their equivalent of the internet.

hear on earth for diplomacy and to a lesser extent commerce in the past couple of centuries we tried French, but in the past half century English has started to come in to vogue. For Navigation particularity Air Navigation in the past half century it has bean English as the language of choice, for Science we've bean taking a muili-lingual approach but English is on the top of the list when you publish.

in the late pre-stellar era one of a races languages will emerge as "Common", it may not be the first language of the majority of the race but it will be a wide spread second that is used in a wide variety of planet wide fields.
 
hear on earth...

With language, we often do.

for diplomacy and to a lesser extent commerce in the past couple of centuries we tried French, but in the past half century English has started to come in to vogue.

It's driven by economic and cultural and military dominance. For the western world for a long time it was Latin. Spanish almost became it, but France was larger and more dominant in Europe than the Spanish were (yes I know, that's debatable). When the 20th C hit us, US power was apparent after WWI, and those elements segued from a British to a US sort of flavour, with English being common between them.

China today has set up Confucius centres to teach Mandarin and Chinese culture in an effort to set Mandarin itself up as the successor to international English. It will take a lot more than government sponsored cultural centres to achieve this though. There's an interesting essay on it here
 
On a standard language alien race, they will need a language of international navigation, A language of international diplomacy, a language of international commerce, A Language of Scientific & Technical Exchange and a core language protocol for their equivalent of the internet.

hear on earth for diplomacy and to a lesser extent commerce in the past couple of centuries we tried French, but in the past half century English has started to come in to vogue. For Navigation particularity Air Navigation in the past half century it has bean English as the language of choice, for Science we've bean taking a muili-lingual approach but English is on the top of the list when you publish..

But when you consider the nuances diplomats gain much meaning and intent from but which are undetectable to non-diplomats (see Retief), and the specialized jargon of business, and compare those to the "leet-speak" of geeks and hackers ... they are still separate and incompatible languages.
 
you will likely see similar dynamics on alien worlds, one close language group or even one language will rise due to the forces of Colonial Legacy that will transition in to Technical & Economic dominance likely paired with a Military pre-eminence.
 
I doubt whether a language exists which doesn't have something that fills the place of nouns. But if you're a referee and none of your players are linguists, you can tell them that a particular alien language lacks nouns, then watch them flail about, because it seems to me that that DOES create a situation where a language is incomprehensible to most of us.
Unless you happen to be playing with a bunch of Algonquin or Cherokee, I suppose. A very great number of indigenous North American languages are heavily verb-based, to the point where some fella once remarked that a Mi'kmaq speaker could easily go the entire day without ever having to utter a noun.

I learnt about this a couple of years ago, when I was experimenting with the idea of giving the Geonee a main language that was nounless. Basically, if you needed to identify an object you would do it polysynthetically, by building a verb-based description of it 'on the fly'. Ultimately there might be some agreement within a group how to describe it, thus creating pseudo-nouns, but these would be limited by the fact that different groups (families, clans, or 'clades', as I referred to the largest groupings) would come to use different collections of descriptors -- or even change them, depending on how the function of the object changed with time.

Which, it turns out, is sorta like what a lot of NA Indian languages already did.
 
I learnt about this a couple of years ago, when I was experimenting with the idea of giving the Geonee a main language that was nounless. Basically, if you needed to identify an object you would do it polysynthetically, by building a verb-based description of it 'on the fly'.

Ah, a grokking here. Adjectives, abstractnesses, and verbitude to dance around rather than pin down. Apparently otherwise a supreme utility somehow?
 
Ah, a grokking here. Adjectives, abstractnesses, and verbitude to dance around rather than pin down. Apparently otherwise a supreme utility somehow?

Working is from talking, burdening also.

More unpleasant than little green instructing-was on imaging recording outputting-was.
 
Working is from talking, burdening also.

More unpleasant than little green instructing-was on imaging recording outputting-was.

The owned thinking-is hurting-temporary-is, but please into thinking-owned solid-metallic-shooting-be done.
 
The owned thinking-is hurting-temporary-is, but please into thinking-owned solid-metallic-shooting-be done.
Dang. I've got absolutely nothing clever enough to add here, so I'm just going to be pedantically academic instead:

I think you're creating too many nouns here for this to work, no doubt because that's just the way you're linguistically (and maybe even, at this point, neurologically) wired up to do. From what I've read, verb-centered languages are more concerned about the action itself, rather than categorizing it as an interaction between classifiable objects. Noun-oriented languages, on the other hand, are much more concerned about identifying the objects first, and perceiving any action as a subset of how those objects affect each other.

In other words, reality to a verb-based speaker is perceived as a constant flow of malleable processes, whereas a noun-based speaker sees reality as a collection of interrelated, but discreet, objects. To a noun-based observer, then, verb-based languages would come off as too vague and timeless to get anything meaningful done, whereas verb-based speakers regard noun-based languages as intellectual straight jackets, to obsessed with sorting and categorizing everything in the world around it to get anything valuable done. Broadly speaking, of course.

Here are a couple of interesting essays on the topic (assuming you're into that sort of thing)...

'Manifest Worldviews in Language': http://hilgart.org/enformy/dma-wv.htm -- just read the section titled 'Noun Habituation' if you don't want to wade through the whole thing.

'Blackfoot Physics and European Minds': http://www.fdavidpeat.com/bibliography/essays/black.htm -- The section titled 'Language' is most relevant here, although of course the entire essay is worth a read.
 
To take this in a completely orthogonal direction, there is an idea of a metaphor only language, as show in the ST:NG episode Darmok. Though I completely agree with this criticism, that while poetic, it is completely unworkable in reality.
 
And yet another interesting variation on language. Herein it is postulated that all spoken human languages are made up from a small subset of sounds combined into different variations. The article goes on to describe a language where each word has a whole, and completely different, sound. An auditory complement to an ideographic written language.
 
And yet another interesting variation on language. Herein it is postulated that all spoken human languages are made up from a small subset of sounds combined into different variations. The article goes on to describe a language where each word has a whole, and completely different, sound. An auditory complement to an ideographic written language.

The human vocal apparatus can only produce some 60 discrete sounds, and only about 50 of them have significant audibility.

F in the following refers to an unspecified frequency. The following are general musical "truths"... §

Most people can hear a pitch difference of about F:F*2^(1/24) (F:F*1.0293).
Many people cannot meaningfully tell the difference between F and 2F, and if F, 2F, and 4F notes are sounding, they'll only be able to discern 4F and one of the others. (this is foundational for all known musical systems, and is due to the law of harmonics.)

Western musical systems all approximate a system of 12 discrete "half-steps"...
halfstepsFrequencyIntervalSolfege, MajorSolfege, Minor
0F * 2^(0/12)TonicDoLa
1F * 2^(1/12)m2
2F * 2^(2/12)M2ReTi
3F * 2^(3/12)m3Do
4F * 2^(4/12)M3Mi
5F * 2^(5/12)P4FaRe
6F * 2^(6/12)A4
7F * 2^(7/12)P5SolMi
8F * 2^(8/12)m6Fa
9F * 2^(9/12)M6La
10F * 2^(10/12)m7Sol
11F * 2^(11/12)M7Ti
12F * 2^(12/12)OctaveDoLa
The Major Mode uses a scale running Do to Do; Minor is La to La.
Most other scales also use the same 12 half steps, but not the same arrangement of 7 out of those 12 notes . Several (especially the semitic ones) use 9 of them. Several african ones use 5 of them. Some particularly noisome composers use 4...
And it cycles; each octave resets as tonic for the next. Thus a 2 octave range is from F to 4F (=F*2^(24/12)=F*2^2)
When using Solfege, it's common to indicate the second octave by affixing a single quote ('), and a 3rd by a double quote (").

Given this system, and noting that most people have a comfortable singing range comprising F to 2F... we can get from our 8 note scale 64 potentials... but we cannot use those 64, because the listener has no reference for where it's starting, and absolute pitch (the ability to hear a note and know what frequency F is for that purpose) is actually quite rare, while almost all can be trained to hear relative pitch easily.

So, we have to pick a reference note, and use it consistently in the same spot. Since I use church chant a lot, I'll note that it almost always ENDS on tonic... but that's not as linguistically useful as starting on tonic.

So, since we can pick any of the halfsteps in the person's comfortable range as our start, and the second has to be within that same comfortable range...we can get 15 combinations.

Unity: Do-Do
Rising Sequences: Do-Re, Do-Mi, Do-Fa, Do-Sol, Do-La, Do-Ti, Do-Do'
Falling Sequences: Do'-Ti, Do'-La, Do'-Sol, Do'-Fa, Do'-Mi, Do'-Re, Do'-Do

Adding a third note multiplies by more than 8 but less than fifteen...
Do'-Do'-(Do to Do") is 15
Do'-Re'-(Re to Do") is 14
Do'-Mi'-(Mi to Do") is 13
Do'-Fa'-(Fa to Do") is 12
Do'-Sol'-(Sol to Do") is 11
Do'-La'-(La to Do") is 10
Do'-Ti'-(Ti to Do") is 9
Do-Do'-(Do to Do') is 8
And the falling patterns mirror image the rising ones...
So the 3 note sequence is 169 patterns (=15 + 2*14 + 2*13 + 2*12 +2*11 +2*10 +2*9+2*8)

For simplicity of calculation (because I don't care to do that much figuring), additionals are a continuously falling multiple of greater than 8 but less than 15...

But once we get past 2 notes, we're already into discrete patterns.

However, if we use the full 12 halfsteps, we can get 23 meaningful combinations from our comfortable octave.

We also have 8 singable vowels (ă, ä, ā, ē, ĭ, ŭ, ō, er) and 2 singable consonants (m and n) ... so we can get 230 discrete sounds without repetitive elements.

That's not enough for non
for 10 singable sounds.

By using the 40-odd consonants as well, we can get about 9200 discrete sounds, packed into a 2-beat, audible and discernable sequence.
Inflection would then be by duration, rather than the European typical use of pitch.

9200 is plenty - tho' not nearly the number in the largest english dictionaries (which count around 1 million), it's as many as quite a few lower-vocabulary languages. And well more than the stable creole called Taki-Taki, at under 800...

If we instead allow our 10 singable sounds, and only 10 consonants, always leading, but three notes, of an 8 note scale, we can get 110*169=18,590 words... about comparable with a teenager native english speaker. Oh, and common daily use is only about 3000-5000 discrete words per day of a much larger vocabulary. (Typical US adults have a 25,000 to 30,000 word vocabulary, but use only 10% to 20% regularly)

If we add a trailing consonant...but never the same as the leading... that gives us 185,900 words. Which is pretty reasonable and awfully compact.

And would scream "SYNTHETIC LANGUAGE"...


§ Truths in quotes because, while generally true, many individuals have better than this level.
 
Y'all ought to go sign up for the 'Linguistics 101', or even better 'Anthropology XXX: Introduction to Anthropological Linguistics' class, at your nearest community college or uni. Not knocking your smarts, just a couple of your foundational assumptions.

Yes, I'm being trollishly argumentative. No, I just don't have the energy any more to argue basics with angry Elois, any more. However you react, at least I'm not gonna be offended.
 
I am thinking that by the time humans start traveling to other solar systems.
There will probably only be one or two or maybe even three languages.
That humans will be speaking by that time .
And people of none human species will be no different.
But that's only my theory
 
Some people cherish their heritage, which includes language. That's why we see efforts to preserve languages in Europe, France being the exception - Occitan is looking pretty endangered right now.

While there'll always be a few dominant international languages, with one ascendant, unless there's a concerted effort to stamp them out then there's every chance local languages will likely continue.
 
Bah. Chomsky's been repudiated, and epiphenomena is just doctoral-thesis-speak for "just stop thinking and start talking". And the article doesn't really offer any help -- regardless of where Earthian languages come from, Dyirbal (for example) is unintelligible to those who don't know it. Speaking *Proto-World to Dyirbal speakers will not help. Especially if it doesn't have split ergativity. Ha ha. Ha?

Disclaimer: I am not a linguist, so what I wrote above is a complete load of hogwash.

You do just fine, Rob. I think many of the most innovative thoughts in many areas come from outsiders rather than "experts" from the academy.

And Chomsky hasn't been so much repudiated as disputed. Many still find his theories persuasive. I still think some of the ideas have merit or something of value even if the greater numbers of linguists out there disagree with it. Scientific consensus is all too often a popularity contest than a real tour de force of the scientific method in action. Political footballs often override good scientific sense.

Although at least one scientists disagreeing with Chomsky, named his test primate Nim Chimpsky in homage and good fun.

On the Gripping Hand, we DO happen to have at least two people on this forum who know a lot about linguistics, who I think could write better on the matter.

*** Who are the two people you were thinking of? ***

I am one of the folks on the forum who is a polyglot and also has graduate linguistic studies under his belt.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
 
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