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ability scores

DrSkull

SOC-14 1K
While methods of rolling ability scores can't be mentioned in the d20 Traveller book, I was wondering what method people were planning to use.

I know I'm torn between 4d6, drop the lowest, but roll "organically", i.e., once per ability score in order; or, on the other hand using the "point-buy" method.

Point-buy worked well in D&D for me, but I'm afraid of everyone ending up with 8 Charisma, Social Status and Wisdom. On the other hand, I'd like players to be able to engineer a Baron if they really want to.

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Dave "Dr. Skull" Nelson
 
On that note:

I am mulling over releasing in PDF format an OGL Character Creation manual. One of the main methods I would present (other than the standard 4d6 drop lowest) would be a point buy system.

Thoughts, comments?

Hunter
 
Might be a good idea to do that.

I would defintely offer a point-buy method in the document. It would be especially key for a "Living Traveller" camapaign, where people wopuld be porting around characters.

I had no bad experiences with the D&D point buy. I guess I'm just imagniing trouble.

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Dave "Dr. Skull" Nelson
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrSkull:
Might be a good idea to do that.

I would defintely offer a point-buy method in the document. It would be especially key for a "Living Traveller" camapaign, where people wopuld be porting around characters.

I had no bad experiences with the D&D point buy. I guess I'm just imagniing trouble.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Munchkins will be munchkins no matter what we do.

On a side note, such an OGL Character Creation supplement is actually something that Ryan Dancy has openly encouraged someone to do.

Hunter
 
Originally posted by hunter:


Munchkins will be munchkins no matter what we do.

On a side note, such an OGL Character Creation supplement is actually something that Ryan Dancy has openly encouraged someone to do.

Hunter
Have you actually done this? It is still a decent idea, just wondering if you've had the time or yet have the inclination.
 
The mere mentioning of a "Living Traveller" camapaign has got me all excited. Is anyone curently working on one?

PS. Hunter, after the first three previews of T20 I am now adicted to them like crack :D . Will there be one this week to feed my addiction?
 
Will you be able to increase your ability scores durring the living history like the past traveller games? Can you get hurt and loose them as well? Does age still have an effect?
 
Originally posted by NDS:
The mere mentioning of a "Living Traveller" camapaign has got me all excited. Is anyone curently working on one?
The mention of Living Traveller makes my spleen ache, personally. I am definitely an opponent of Living Campaigns advancing a timeline past a base-point in directions I don't want my campaign to go. Just give us everything at Year 1000, and let us make further history in our own homes, please.

I do remember some older posts along the lines of Living Imperium for RPGA-style play, though.
 
Well for myself having used the dice rolling method for the last 20 years, i approached the point buy method in 3e with some trepidation, but i'm pleased to say it's great, prevents cheating, allows PC's to get the kind of character they want and allows GM's to maintain party balance by ensuring everyone is of a similar power level.

Point Buy is the way to go!
 
As a GM, going all the way back to late 1st ed days, I've always done this:

"Everyone take out a piece of paper and 3D6, we're going to roll ability scores for your characters. Now put the dice away, this is what you all rolled - 18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10."

Unless convinced otherwise, I envision doing the same in my Traveller campaign.
 
I have always liked randomness. The roll of the dice is more fun than the point buy system, or assigned results. Mind you it does have its flaws. I ran a D&D campaign recently and got three identically stupid half orc barbarians. So as a comprimise between freedom and uniformity I went with an optional method.

Roll 4d6 in order for all six stats. You may then re-roll any single result if you choose, and take that new roll if it is more to your liking. You may then switch any two other scores. You may not switch the re-rolled score, if you re-rolled strength, it must stay strength.

I've found this gives plenty of latitude in character creation, while retaining the fun of rolling, and at the same time makes sure that you dont get carbon copied characters.
 
Hmm. I wonder. Does offering alternate methods of generating ability scores the same as describing how to create a character?

Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but if I were to look up the Character Creation Basics in D&D Player's Handbook, I assume only the step-by-step directions in big bold letters, not the normal text that follows.

In the OGF, we have discussed allowing alternate XP charts, just as long you do not describe how to use it (Trademark License forbid describing the process of advancing a character). Are third-party publisher allowed to offer alternate ability score generation method?
 
Over the years I've used many many methods of generating characters, and the one that's stuck -- the only one I'd use if I were to run a new campaign of ANY rpg -- is "generate stats, in order, for up to 12 characters; player picks which set to keep." As far as I'm concerned, that provides the best mix of random chance with allowing players to have characters they actually want. Note that many 'roleplayers' tend to keep the first or second character generated, regardless (or maybe they're just in a hurry...).

For tournament or con games where you're playing with strangers and it's important to be able to tell if someone's cheating I'd go with a point-buy method, but never for a long-term in-house campaign. Generating and attaching a number to every detail of your character's history and personality before play ever begins may provide extra depth right out of the box, but is severely limiting in terms of continuing character growth and development over an extended campaign -- you're less likely to change and evolve your character concept when you've got a bunch of perfectly-balanced numbers attached to it.
 
Originally posted by Reginald:
Hmm. I wonder. Does offering alternate methods of generating ability scores the same as describing how to create a character?

Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but if I were to look up the Character Creation Basics in D&D Player's Handbook, I assume only the step-by-step directions in big bold letters, not the normal text that follows.

In the OGF, we have discussed allowing alternate XP charts, just as long you do not describe how to use it (Trademark License forbid describing the process of advancing a character). Are third-party publisher allowed to offer alternate ability score generation method?
Yes if it is released strictly as OGL and not under the d20 license.

Hunter
 
For 3E point-buy, I generally use 28+1d6. I don't much like 4d6-low. Too many times I see one player roll a demi-god, while the other gets the near-minimum playable. Ugh. If you have to tweak with numbers afterwards, why bother rolling in the first place?

To counter munchkinism — as I warn my players — I make sure "dump stats" are exploited at least once an "adventure". I find that most players start beefing up their weaker stats with level bonuses... just like real life; they learn from their weaknesses.

-

Slightly off topic...

A friend of mine is designing a game. He is paranoid about letting other designers see it until it actually is published. As he explained it to me; an entity can copyright the actual text and logos of a game, but not actual game mechanics. i.e. Anybody could release their own version of Chess.

SO, if this is true, how does the OGL and SRD work? Couldn't you just make product for d20 and just call it an unofficial supplement or imply but not use the actual d20 term, thus avoiding the whole WotC hoop-jump?

OR am I totally missinformed?
 
Originally posted by bozzutoman:

SO, if this is true, how does the OGL and SRD work? Couldn't you just make product for d20 and just call it an unofficial supplement or imply but not use the actual d20 term, thus avoiding the whole WotC hoop-jump?

OR am I totally missinformed?
You could, it's been done before. WotC has trademaked a number of D20 terms (including D20), which you would have to avoid altogether. Accidently include one, or a bit of text directly copied from the SRD or published rule books could get you sued out of business.

The reason so many publishers are going through this exercise is so they can put the big red and white D20 logo on the cover. This is what attracts those much^h^h^h^h D20 players like flies to honey. They feel (probably correctly) that the hassle of jumping through the WotC hoops is worth the extra sales it generates.
 
Originally posted by bozzutoman:
Too many times I see one player roll a demi-god, while the other gets the near-minimum playable. Ugh. If you have to tweak with numbers afterwards, why bother rolling in the first place?
While I'd never force a player to keep an obviously inferior character (though I've had a few choose to, and prosper), I've never had much problem with unbalanced 'demi-god' characters. I've found that in the types of encounters I usually run -- roleplaying and/or problem-solving -- outsized stats/skills aren't much of a help and success depends much more on the abilities of the player than on his or her character. The only places where 'unbalanced' characters become a problem are 1) when the super-character is so ridiculously overpowered that he renders other characters' 'specialties' obsolete (i.e. the 'pilot' who just happens to also have Medic-3 and Engineering-3 -- this becomes much more of a problem with systems (like TNE & T4) where skill effectiveness is largely dependent on character stats), 2) in combat (though I always skirted this in a metagaming sense by 'coincidentally' always having the toughest opponents go after the uber-characters), or 3) when PCs face off against one another (which is really a combination of cases 1 & 2; not to mention that if you reach this point the game's likely spun well out of control already).

What it comes down to is that I learned long ago that while some players (i.e. 'good' ones) can prosper and have fun with even poor-to-mediocre characters, others only enjoy the game if they're playing a superhero (with the usual unspoken corollary that they're the only one playing a superhero). As long as I know who's who up front, why should I try to enforce some sort of artificial 'parity' between them? I say let everyone enjoy the game the way they choose.
 
Originally posted by T. Foster:
While I'd never force a player to keep an obviously inferior character (though I've had a few choose to, and prosper), I've never had much problem with unbalanced 'demi-god' characters.
The biggest problem isn't really the lucky roller; the world is his oyster... it's the poor player that got schtooped by Lady Luck. He wanted to play someone at least heroic and he's stuck playing Skreetch. Why deal with it... or worse re-roll the character, when the whole problem's resolved with a simple point-buy? Nobody can really complain that someone else got an unfair advantage. I've still got a 1d6 variable for some variety, but it'd be really picayune to complain about such a small differential.

[snip]... in combat (though I always skirted this in a metagaming sense by 'coincidentally' always having the toughest opponents go after the uber-characters)...

[snip]

What it comes down to is that I learned long ago that while some players (i.e. 'good' ones) can prosper and have fun with even poor-to-mediocre characters, others only enjoy the game if they're playing a superhero (with the usual unspoken corollary that they're the only one playing a superhero). As long as I know who's who up front, why should I try to enforce some sort of artificial 'parity' between them? I say let everyone enjoy the game the way they choose.
I don't really see how metagaming an enemies' preferential target is any less of artificial 'parity' than initial character points. It also lets one player steal too much limelight.

Also, how is forcing players to rely on luck to determine stats more liberating than letting them decide their own character's strengths and weaknesses? There's plenty of time in the actual game that lady luck will have her chance to screw the players.

I agree that a "good" player can even make the Skreetch character shine. But I'm not talking about them; they're self-sufficient. I'm talking about "average" players. The ones that don't necessarily demand they play Luke Skywalker but definitely don't want to play Porkins.
 
Originally posted by bozzutoman:
I don't really see how metagaming an enemies' preferential target is any less of artificial 'parity' than initial character points. It also lets one player steal too much limelight.
Yeah I'll confess that I'm imposing artificial parity, but not that I'm letting one player steal the limelight. In fact, just the opposite -- if one PC's noticably more adept at combat than the rest and all opponents are essentially equal then you're going to get either 1) the uber-character taking out all the opponents single-handed while the other players sit back and watch, or 2) the 'normal' characters getting waxed and their players sitting back and watching, hoping their uber-companion can at least force a draw before they all bleed to death.

By cooking the books to provide an uber-opponent for the uber-PC and normal opponents for everybody else a balance of play-focus is maintained -- the uber-PC should require about the same amount of play-time and effort to defeat his opponent as the normal folks do to defeat theirs. Artificial? Definitely. As artificial as forcing all characters to be exactly equal? Perhaps, but certainly not to my feelings.

Also, how is forcing players to rely on luck to determine stats more liberating than letting them decide their own character's strengths and weaknesses? There's plenty of time in the actual game that lady luck will have her chance to screw the players.

I agree that a "good" player can even make the Skreetch character shine. But I'm not talking about them; they're self-sufficient. I'm talking about "average" players. The ones that don't necessarily demand they play Luke Skywalker but definitely don't want to play Porkins.
Both of these go back to my post on the first page of this topic where I mentioned my prefered method of generating character stats: roll up to 12 characters randomly and pick your favorite. With this many characters to choose from, the chance of anyone getting 'stuck' with Skreetch is vanishingly small. Usually by at most the 3rd or 4th set of stats everybody's found someone they can work with (unless they've trying to match a detailed predetermined concept or really NEED that super-character, in which case they keep going).

As for players being 'liberated' to determine their own strengths and weaknesses, that's fine if you've already decided exactly what you want your character to be like, but IMO the biggest fun of rpgs isn't in assuming some pre-defined dream-role, but in exploring, learning about, and developing your character naturally over the course of a campaign. IMO characters should grow and deepen organically as the campaign progresses and the players become accustomed to their quirks and idiosyncracies, not pop forth fully formed like Athena from the head of Zeus.

When forced to choose and pre-determine everything before play begins players tend to fall back on the same sorts of 'comfortable' carbon-copy archetypes over and over, but when allowed to improvise and adapt to unusual or unforseen circumstances, great new discoveries can be made and, if you'll excuse my waxing philosophically touchy-feely, players have a better chance of actually 'learning' something from the game.

Of course it all comes down to matters of personal taste and play style, and in many/most campaigns expanding the players' minds falls right at the bottom of the priority-list, but I've found from ~20 years of play that for the types of games I prefer both to run and to play in a random/organic char-gen system fits much better than a predetermined/cookie-cutter one. YMMV, and for what it's worth I very much agree that for one-shots, tournaments, and other short mini-campaigns where there isn't enough time to organically develop a character from scratch, point-buy char-gen is definitely the way to go.
 
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