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A Question on Different Traveller Systems

PFVA63

SOC-13
Hi,

Over the years I've messed around with Classic Traveller, Twilight: 2000, and 2300AD, and have also read through MegaTraveller, T4 & The New Era but haven't really gotten into GURPS or Traveller D20 yet.

Anyway, I kind of remember years ago (I think when TNE came out) someone put out an article or booklet describing the changes between MegaTraveller and TNE. And now looking over T20 and GURPS Traveller it got me wondering if anyone has put together anything similar comparing the differences between all the different versions of Traveller especially helping explain things like the differences in setting, character generation, ship design, combat/task resolution, and die rolling convetions etc.

From looking at alot of the posts here I've seen alot of discussion on some of the different aspects, but was just curious if anyone had ever pulled some of this stuff together anywhere.

Regards

PF
 
Well, the book to which you refer is GDW's Survival Margin: Gateway to the New Era.

Really, the CT to MT changes are too dramatic and yet, not so much. Describing them is easy, listing them is hard. It added a Task system, added Special Duty and Bonus Skills rolls, replaced many skill entries with cascade groups, went to a striker derived but not compatible combat system, added a striker derived but not fully compatible design system for ground, grav, and space vehicles, and added skill rolls to psionic tasks. Setting was thrown into a rebelion; later, the rebellion stalls into separate camps; and many areas blasted to near inhospitablility. Stats still 1-15 avg 7. Setting area expanded from Spinward Marches to Domain of Deneb, but Solomani Rim excluded. Uses reduced Jfuel volumes.

TNE changed skill aquisition to skill choices, but with similar CG rolls, and more careers. TNE changed the task system resolution process, dropping the time element, and using multiplications of a stat+skill asset for various difficulties, and introduced the first non-d6 Traveller engine, as it used a d20. It polished up the Twilight 2000 & Dark Conspiracy engine (which said polish was added back the other direction later). Stats are 1-15 avg 6, adds Charisma stat, as well. Setting is 70 years after MT's Hard Times, and Virus used to "Wipe the Slate"... Many CT and MT fans upset; man new players attracted by the Smash and Grab oriented setting resulting. Aging starts earlier, but is less profound; possible to generate characters far less hurt by aging at more advanced ages. Setting changed to the Reformation Coalition, near Sol-Gateway domain borders; Domain of Deneb added later, with drastic changes (so much for the Preserve mentioned in Survival Margin...). Uses semi-realistic MDrives (HEPlaR chided for unrealistically high exhaust velocities... near C...

T4 went to a variable d6 roll low system, with number of dice by difficulty. It also massively increased skills per term (from CT's 1-5 avg 1.3, MT's 1-8 avg 1.8, and TNE's 1-7 avg 3 or so; all are rough estimates) to 4-8 avg about 5. All CG tables changed to roll-low, and 6 skill tables per career, fewer careers. Used TNE's technical architecture. Stats 1-15 avg 7. Due to CGen and task system issues, strong tendency towards highly raised stats; C&D atts not uncommon. Setting supposedly reverted to "start of the Third Imperium" eras (Year 0, Year 40), but stats for systems mishandeled. Whole imperium (with mangled stats) presented with 1100 era borders... primary setting is Core sector. Adds back CT/MT style Thrusters (reactionless).

GT: 3d6 system, roll low, 4 stats (St Dx Ht IQ), 2 pseudo stats (Move, Will), point based CG, template based careers for those who need them, ship design in 500 CuFt spaces, similar to but not compatible with CT Bk5. Very different task system, as task labels simply modify Skill levels; Skill levels derived from Attribute+ skill "Level" (which may be as low as -4, and isn't defined as such). Loads of details in setting materials, setting is CT advanced sans rebellion to the rebellion time frame. Primary setting is Spinward Marches and Domain of Deneb. Numerous small issues with setting book make for annoyance of long term players; utility of supplements generally considered a plus.

HeroTraveller: Standard here is 3d6 Roll High combat, 3d6 roll low skills. Point based. 10 attributes, 8 figured attributes. Attribute range 1-20, average NPC is 8, PC base is 10. (That's stock hero.) Do not know what the standard setting is, nor the details, as it's brand new and I don't have it yet.

T20:
8 Stats, 1-20+, avg 10.5. Uses variant damage and combat systems from Traveller and D20, but feels fairly travelleresque. Setting is pre-CT by about a decade, and domain of Gateway, rather than Deneb. Design sequences derived from and compatible with CT Bk5, but many additions. Many supplemental materials dual stat CT & T20.

2300 (Traveller 2300, 2300AD): Not "really" traveller; uses MT aka DGP-CT task system but repacing 2d6 with 1d10. Choice based skill gains, no way to raise stats. Very much "Halfway between CT and TNE" (far more so than MT, really) mechanically; system creation rules are VERY different. Combat system very different very flexible, quite deadly. No playable aliens. Setting uses different FTL tech from Traveller line, as well as different STL tech.
 
Cool

Hi,

Cool. That was really informative. Its just what I was looking for and I think I even understand most of it. Thanks for your help.

Regards

PF
 
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HeroTraveller: Standard here is 3d6 Roll High combat, 3d6 roll low skills. Point based. 10 attributes, 8 figured attributes. Attribute range 1-20, average NPC is 8, PC base is 10. (That's stock hero.) Do not know what the standard setting is, nor the details, as it's brand new and I don't have it yet.

All Hero task rolls, combat or not, are 3d6 roll low.
 
Traveller Hero I know something about. As has been said, all rolls 3d6 roll low; skills are rated based on stats with a lot of options for bonuses; starship construction melds some of the flexibility of Hero vehicle construction with some design sequences derived from and compatible with CT Bk5. CG uses "package deals" to make characters like the ones from Bk4-7, but without having to do a lot of number-crunching; CG is front-loaded. Setting is approx. 1100ish; stats are given for a number of conversions, so you can theoretically use any Trav setting you like.

My understanding of the different Traveller eras (IY stands for [Third] Imperial Year):
CT: IY 1105, Spinward Marches/Solomani Rim
MT: IY 1116, Spinward Marches
TNE: IY 1201, Reformation Coalition/Regency
T4: IY 0, Core Sector
T5: ????
GT: IY 1120, alternate Spinward Marches
T20: IY 1000, Gateway Domain
 
Well, as to 2300, it used the same task system (DGP's UTP) with a tweak (1D10 instead of 2d6), and was originally sold under the traveller banner at the same time as the later CT and early MT products.... Yeah, it's right on the border. But many people are playing far more divergent settings with TNE rules....

As to timelines, we need to include the "Half-editions":
later CT materials are 1107 (post 5th Frontier War), while earlier range from 1103 up...
MT Hard Times is 1120-1130
T4 has materials set in the 40's.
GT is 1116 on in alternate spinward marches
GTIW is many centuries before IY0. about -3500 to -3300...

TNE runs to around 1230; Recent TNE setting materials are to about 1250... MJD's turf, as I recall.
 
Rtt

Hi,

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any input on what this RTT is that occassionally gets posted about?

Regards

PF
 
Minor correction on the dates.

CT material started with 1105. Covered 5FW of 1107-1110. Final setting material was dated 1110. Final JTAS items are dated 1112.

MT material starts in 1117. While the assassination takes place in 1116, the setting starts in 1117. Various products cover up through 1128.

TNE is set in 1201 for the Reformation Coalition, and 1202 in the Regency. Published material doesn't advance much farther than that.

TNE:1248 is set in, oddly enough, 1248.

GT is initially set in 1120 in the Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim. (I don't have Rim of Fire; it might be set in 1121.) Since then the time in the setting has slowly advanced; "current" date is 1124.

T20 is set in 993. I don't think the time was ever advanced beyond that.
 
As in Ruyard Kipling's story about a brave little mongoose named Rikki-tikki-tavi... thus, Mongoose Press version is Rikki-tikki-Traveller.
 
Vargas & Blackbat242

Hi,

Thanks, that helps clear things up for me. I guess people call it RTT so that it won't get confused with MegaTraveller (MT).

Regards

PF
 
This is a great post.

May I ask for a bit more?

I don't want to start any kind of argument but could I ask which versions you like and why?

I played CT for almost 10 years after it came out. Before the Spinward Marches we rolled our own. Then we played in GDW's universe and later we played there but used other rules to game.

I never collected MT but did get some of TNE. No one wanted to play Traveller :( by then of any sort.

I really only have CT experience. I listened on the MT thread and think I have a good handle on it, it being close to CT (unless I'm mistaken, in which case correct me). What about TNE? The different task system, different character gen. I know that T4 was, politely, screwed up in editing. But if you get past the edit problems (and the task system) what do you think of it? Or is it too compromised? I've seen T20 but not in depth. I was too slow. My FLGS got a copy of all the printed material, but while I was pondering it sold out. I understand D20 so how does it differ? How does it differ from Traveller ... I mean how does the different system effect the game in terms of starships, character gen etc
 
There is a T20 Lite pdf somewhere.

Yes, of course. I have it.

Actually I was wanting YOUR opinion. What do you think? Just kicking the tires doesn't tell you much. Taking it for a test drive does. Since no one is going to loan me all the rule sets I can't do that.

You (the collective) have them. You (the collective) have the experience I lack.

I was asking you to share that experience.
 
TNE's task system uses the same levels as the DGP-CT, MT, and 2300 engines. It uses 1d20 vs (Stat+skill)xDiffAdj, tends to produce skills in the range of 1-7, with 2 being employable, and 5 being professional (vs 1 & 3 for CT/MT).

DiffAdj by difficulty is: Impossible x1/4, Formidable x1/2, Difficult x1, Routine x2, and Simple x4; to add the T4 tasking level, it would be x1/3, and the other refs I know made simple merely x3, and Innane x4....

Hit points are by location for PC's and "Major NPC's" and everyone else has a single location... with 20HP... Head Shots do double, as do critical hits.

Experience is a point system, where you buy at a cost based on current level of skill.

Big complaints about the task system: skills are far less important than stats; the catch is, stats don't climb anywhere nearly as fast. You don't see many "F" stats. Several solutions have been put forth; one was to halve stat and double skill, making Joe Normal's 7 & 2 in field produce a base of 7.5 instead of 7, but his brother Doctor Normal is 7 & 5, and has a 13 instead of a 12; while Mr Spiff is 12 & 2 giving a mere 8 instead of 14, while Dr Spiff is 12 & 5, giving 16 instead of 17...

In general, TNE makes life easier on lower skilled high stat characters.

Unarmed damage can get excessive with high STR and skills over level 5. (Successfully Karate Chop a tank for damage kind of levels)

Psionics are less reliable than CT (on par with MT), but some quirks do apply (specifically with teleport; it makes Zhodani Teleport Troops less than useful); they are, however, not limited by psionic points... so the same low level of skill can keep doing it again, and again, and again....

T&C is Bk 7 style, nearly identical in presentation to MT.

Overall, it's a solid game, but it doesn't feel like Traveller to me. It's missing the imperium, missing the skill-driven characters, missing the design sequences, and when they came out, they made MT look easy. (I've never seen a TNE FF&S design done right the first time... it's too involved and too detail oriented.) Few erratta issues except for the design sequences; Major erratta for FF&S... just a few items, but they mostly were key elements in FF&S.

T4:
CGen: doesn't work any better than CT or MT; built on 1 skill per year, rather than 1 per term. Skill list comparable to TNE or MT; gives about 2-3x the skills. Six table rather than 4 for skills, and Pick or CHoose is the way it works. If picked, skills will generally either be broad and shallow, or few and deep. Random rolls produce broad, shallow, but often with a deep spot.

Tasks: I find the T4 task system simply excreble. Horrid. Nice idea, but it is cumbersome. (No game has had much success when using xd6 vs Stat+Skill where x varries by difficulty since Metagaming's The Fantasy Trip...) It was so bad, my players demanded a different task system; I went to 3d+ Stat/3 + skill vs TN's... I forget what they were at the moment, but run a search for me and 3d6 task system, and you should find it...

The psionics rules are top notch. Best ever. The Psionics Institutes book is good, but castrates the psionics system, while making it far broader (and giving more than a dozen special abilities).

The combat system is simple, CT-like, but armor absorbs damage. (I don't like it, but I can say it is a decent one anyway; I prefer MT's over it, just like under CT I used Striker/AHL rather than CT combat...)

There are a few nifty ideas hidden in various supplements... like heredity in Character Generation (In Pocket Empires).

The core book has a badly broken design system (supposed to have been a subset of the FF&S2 set, but FF&S2 doesn't replicate the results!) that, by itself was playable.

I never got to ship combat.

Overall: a poor engine, IMO. Several good bits, some of which can be ripped right out. (Psionics, for one!)

CG tables could be ripped out and used with MT skill rates easily enough.
 
I'm more of a setting / story referee than a mechanics referee.

CT is just classic. The traveller book was all you needed.

Megatraveller, I thought whoopee, yoo hoo! upon release. till i got to the rules for naval ships, and robots, and saw that there were a lot of holes. Somne profreading and charts errors, but overall solid, and well loved by many, with some house rules. I liked the rebellion setting also, but never used it, preferring my own.

T4, Ditto to more or less what Aramis has said, though I personally like and Enjoy T4, as a better done Megatraveller, in many ways, especially the characters generation section. It feels like Traveller, cleaned up, under marc's hand. Yes, it has many errors, also in other sections.
I personally have 4 copies of book 1, the hardback and softback of mileau zero, and everything in print for it, except Nobles, which was never released. (Which i use GURPS Nobles as source)

GURPS Traveller to me was a strange but cool mix of well Gurps, and Traveller. Some of the most intense, and best rules and flavor is locked away in G:T. It's Traveller in the way that there is a setting, and it's similar, it's just not as readily accessible as the Traveller book, but it has some very nicely done characters with quirks and flaws as GURPS does the best job of, other than say oh Hero Games 5th.

Whereas TNE feels like, looks like, plays like, and in my opinion was derived for the most part from Twilight:2000 2.2 when GDW tried to go to a one true / house rules system for all their games.

I didn't like it when it first came out, but over time it grew on me, especially after I plugged in Survival margin, from my old campaign, and started torching planets by stages of the destruction.

Lots didn't like the TNE destruction of the universe. I personally thought it was pretty cool, as i also like and enjoy many other post-apocalyptic games, but the detractors felt typically that the whole universe was "Smashed and destroyed wholesale for a new rules set"

I didn't see that, instead seeing it as a brave new world of challenge.

2300, well i liked it, it had an age of sail we're all "French, American, German and Chinese out here fighting the new cold war via the banana republics planets" feel. Except with nuclear pumped X-ray lasers and stutter warp.

If you liked cyberpunk in your traveller, 2300 had a small thin supplement for it, the cybertech sourcebook, but it really didn't go into a lot of detail as we all saw that if you wanted cyber, it would be a different game, and people would either cobble from or play Cyberpunk by R. Talsorian. The included scenarios packs for the 23000 game range from really cool to majestic and strange to totally unbelievable in some places. When it was out it was new it seemed sleek, but it seemed like it lost ground fast, relative to other editions. I had high hopes for it, though. And the star chart is waay cool.

I have, but don't play T20, (never really dived into it, was gonna use it for some d20 crossover recruitment, but the d20 players around here want D&D.) So you'd have to get info from somewhere else on T20, i'm not versed, nor qualified.
 
T20 uses the D20 task/skill/save system, class and level structure (if not the usual strictures), and feat concept. It changes armor/damage mechanics (so that no one ever stops being afraid of guns) and bolts on prior career (and thus exp) procedures that are, thanks to the strictures of the D20 Trademark License, more than a little confusing in the original book (but there are experts about, so explanations are available). T20 retains (from Traveller) a ship construction system strongly derived from High Guard.

The default setting for T20 is the Solomani Rim Wars period (998-) but at the far end of the Imperium in Gateway. Another Solomani-geneered race has been added to the mix, and a Gateway-specific Minor Human Race detailed.

There was much hue and cry over the use of class-and-level, but it functions as a simple study/experience/breakpoint mechanic due to the "weakly differentiated" nature of the classes, which (unlike the strongly differentiated classes of D&D) run a fairly smooth range from martial to academic with quite a few flavors of "worldly" in between.

A number of skills from previous versions of Traveller have been replaced or augmented with feats, which not everyone likes.

The other D20 borrow that players of other editions seem to dislike is BAB, mostly on the basis that overall combat competence is some sort of myth and individual weapon prowess and stats should be the only factors. There are several house rule variations around to replace BAB with some number of weapon-only skill points (as well as a few that simply drop weapons unto the general skill pool, though that can really skew the classes badly) so someone new coming in who didn't like BAB wouldn't need to re-invent the wheel.
 
aramis
Merxiless
GypsyComet

Thank you. :p Those are the kind of things I wanted to know.
GypsyComet said:
...bolts on prior career (and thus exp) procedures that are, thanks to the strictures of the D20 Trademark License, more than a little confusing in the original book (but there are experts about, so explanations are available).
Could you give me a little more explanation about this? I don't want tables or such but what kind of confusion results and why? Perhaps an example?

:confused:

[FONT=arial,helvetica] The other D20 borrow that players of other editions seem to dislike is BAB[/FONT]
What is BAB? I guess I'm not cognizant enough with D20 to recognize it if it's from there, and if it's fromT20 I certainly don't know it.

:toast:
 
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