A Heretical Traveller Universe

[rancke]

Are you an authorized agent of Marc/Avery, the copyright holder of record?

He doesn't have to be. He just has to know what he's talking about.



Hans

 

[robject]

It sounds like a neat setup to me, too.

 

[Timerover51]

It sounds like a neat setup to me, too.

Are you referring to the idea of the map or of the Universe in general? It the map, will modifying it result is copyright problems? I would rather not have to pay my copyright attorney $125 an hour to contact Marc and get a positive or negative response.

 

[Timerover51]

I am beginning to get the idea that putting together an alternate Traveller universe is not a viable proposition. Given the amount of canon that I will be tossing out or massively re-writing, like no Zhodani means no Frontier Wars ever, which means no Emperors of the Flag. No war with Terra in 990, so no Solomani Autonomous region, and no Terran occupation. Chucking out the Sword Worlders from the Spinward Marches, with the Zhodani, means no Outworld Confederation, and a lot of different planet writeup, with major differences from the Traveller Wiki. My concept of Vilis and Garda-Vilis is totally different from the Wiki.

What I might do is restrict anything new to the Rimward of the Solomani region, ignore the Imperium totally, and simply say to use the Sectors you need Traveller.

 

[Timerover51]

I have been going through H. Beam Piper's various books which are available online at Project Gutenberg, and are in the public domain. The most useful ones are his Future History series covering the Terran Federation of Planets. He had a view of planetary settlement quite different from Traveller, which can be summed up in the following quote from Space Viking.

Any planet that wasn't oxygen-atmosphere, six to eight thousand miles in diameter, and within a narrow surface-temperature range, wasn't worth wasting time on.

Given his hyperdrive, which had a speed varying, depending on the book, from one parsec a month (Uller Uprising) to a light-year an hour (Space Viking), and acceptance of long duration trips, that makes sense. His hyperdrive had no limitation on the duration of time in hyperdrive, so supply and human endurance were the governing factors.

The result is that just about all of the planets named in the various books are what would be called Terran Prime to Terran Norm worlds in Traveller without the atmosphere taints. The planets in Andre Norton's books that are in the public domain follow a similar pattern. All are inhabitable by humans without artificial environments or equipment. Given the number of worlds mentioned, especially by Piper, with snippets of information on most of them, putting together a sector using anywhere from 2 to 4 of their planets, with additional star systems having less readily inhabitable planets looks like it should work. Basically, the remaining systems will be what Piper would call:

Class II, inhabitable only in artificial environment, like Mercury or Titan. (from 4-Day Planet)

Putting all of the various worlds into the Traveller world classification with short write-ups will take time, and I will have to do some thinking about Uller, which has the oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere, but the lifeforms are all silicon-based, so surviving on the planet does require a lot of food growing support. It should be interesting.

Edit Note: It looks like a slightly modified form of Mongoose Traveller's Hyperdrive would work best for what I am thinking. I will have to see to what extent I can work on that and fission fuel consumption with Matt.

 

[BillDowns]

You can go that route, but consider that "truck stops" along trade routes might be a nice option. Like an O'Neill style colony servicing pass-thru trade. Small population, high-tech of necessity, rather like some of the western towns along Route 66 before Interstate 40 came into being. These might offer interesting short adventures.

 

[Timerover51]

You can go that route, but consider that "truck stops" along trade routes might be a nice option. Like an O'Neill style colony servicing pass-thru trade. Small population, high-tech of necessity, rather like some of the western towns along Route 66 before Interstate 40 came into being. These might offer interesting short adventures.

I assume that the non-optimum planets will be used for refueling and probably have other goodies as well. Niflheim, discussed in Uller Uprising has a "C" atmosphere, quite nasty really, but is loaded with uranium with a higher U-235 concentration than Earth, so a really good mining under severe conditions planet. Uller is no Heavenly Paradise either. I plan on having the systems spread out, so Jump-2 will be essential for extended exploration, but there will be some Jump-1 clusters as well.

 

[Timerover51]

Since I have called this my heretical Traveller Universe thread, might as well get as heretical as possible and dump the requirement for massive quantities of Liquid Hydrogen for jumping. The odd thing about dumping it is that in doing so, I am being in some respects, totally canonical. The case in point is the Annic Nova, featured adventure in JTAS 1 and also the very first short adventure, written by none other than Marc Miller.

The Annic Nova, for those unfamiliar with it, is an abandoned ship of roughly 600 dTons, which is capable of both Jump-2 and Jump-3, but has no power plant, nor any provision for tanks holding some 300 dTons of Liquid Hydrogen. There are no fuel tanks at all, except for those on the two 40-ton pinnances. Now, there is no suggestion in either the magazine article or adventure that the jump system of the Annic Nova is sufficiently unique such that the Imperium would take steps to immediately seize the ship from any party that manages to recover it. No requiring a Liquid Hydrogen jump bubble around the ship for safety, or anything like that.

So, good by to massive amounts of Liquid Hydrogen needed. Besides that, if you are using Hydrogen or Deuterium for your fusion plant, water is a much better storage mechanism, besides being much easier to handle and having the benefit of supplying large quantities of oxygen when electrolyzed. A cubic foot of distilled water weighs 62.4 pounds, and contains just under 7 pounds of hydrogen (6.933 pounds to be more exact). A cubic foot of Liquid Hydrogen weighs 4.423 pounds per cubic foot. You get over 50% more hydrogen by weight in the same volume of liquid.

However, while I do do away with the Liquid Hydrogen requirement, what I am putting in its place does cost significant money, compared to the Liquid Hydrogen storage, which for some reason did not cost anything.

 

[salochin999]

You can go that route, but consider that "truck stops" along trade routes might be a nice option. Like an O'Neill style colony servicing pass-thru trade. Small population, high-tech of necessity, rather like some of the western towns along Route 66 before Interstate 40 came into being. These might offer interesting short adventures.

Yes.

I tend to agree with this as the basic idea at least during the earlier lower-tech colonization phase:

Any planet that wasn't oxygen-atmosphere, six to eight thousand miles in diameter, and within a narrow surface-temperature range, wasn't worth wasting time on.

If you do this as an exercise, picking a start system and only seeking to colonize the nearest prime systems then you get a chain of truck stop systems between each "alpha" colony for refueling/repair etc. Initially these would be J1 stops and over time some of them may end up bypassed and turned into ghost towns. Truck stop systems both make sense and provide endless opportunities for "wilderness" adventures.

The other thing about this in a Traveller context is the Ancients and their genetic modification. IMTU there are lots of modified humans - often largely restricted to the worlds they were modified for (or the type of worlds they were modified for).

 

[Timerover51]

The other thing about this in a Traveller context is the Ancients and their genetic modification. IMTU there are lots of modified humans - often largely restricted to the worlds they were modified for (or the type of worlds they were modified for).

As the sector that I am working on will be to Rimward of Terra, the amount of tampering by the Ancients will be very limited. Also, there will be other prior Space-faring Races leaving remains behind them, more recent than the Ancients. I am still debating having a planet colonized by humans from Ancient Egypt picked up by the Baldies shortly before the Baldie civilization collapsed. Then, there is always the Pied Piper of Hamlin and the Lost Colony of Roanoke, along with the Bermuda Triangle.

 

[kilemall]

So, good by to massive amounts of Liquid Hydrogen needed. Besides that, if you are using Hydrogen or Deuterium for your fusion plant, water is a much better storage mechanism, besides being much easier to handle and having the benefit of supplying large quantities of oxygen when electrolyzed. A cubic foot of distilled water weighs 62.4 pounds, and contains just under 7 pounds of hydrogen (6.933 pounds to be more exact). A cubic foot of Liquid Hydrogen weighs 4.423 pounds per cubic foot. You get over 50% more hydrogen by weight in the same volume of liquid.

However, while I do do away with the Liquid Hydrogen requirement, what I am putting in its place does cost significant money, compared to the Liquid Hydrogen storage, which for some reason did not cost anything.

Problem with water as your hydrogen storage medium is that you would have to electrolyze it as you go, which might work fine for just the power plant, but not the massive dumping of fuel to form the jump bubble.

Another reason to stick with L-Hyd is ready access to gas giant refueling, where many systems may not have water or may have it at distant Oort clouds.

 

[Jame]

Problem with water as your hydrogen storage medium is that you would have to electrolyze it as you go, which might work fine for just the power plant, but not the massive dumping of fuel to form the jump bubble.

Another reason to stick with L-Hyd is ready access to gas giant refueling, where many systems may not have water or may have it at distant Oort clouds.

Which is why I have the house rule that the power plant has greater endurance than listed.

 

[kilemall]

Hmmmm.

Does beg the question though, why not store a second jump's worth of hydrogen as water to be run through the refiner?

Given a 4:1 volume ratio, you could have 40% of the ship volume for a Jump-4 ship, then commit another 10% for the water. At end of jump start 'purifying' the water, be loaded for jump within a day without facilities, tankers or High Guard risks at the gas giant.

Be a GREAT extender for scout missions too, a proper functional form for dedicated tankers that could top off multiples of ships off it's tanks, and just the thing for pirates on the lam to outwait their pursuers' patrols.

Off the top of my head, I would have to think water tanks are different from L-Hyd tanks so you can't mix them. The refueling from oceans bit would be just floating there while refining in place.

 

[rancke]

Problem with water as your hydrogen storage medium is that you would have to electrolyze it as you go, which might work fine for just the power plant, but not the massive dumping of fuel to form the jump bubble.

The real problem is that the requirement that the entire amount of jump hydrogen used on a jump be present in hard fuel tanks does not in any way preclude carrying power plant fuel and spare jump fuel in the form of water. So why not do both? 10xJn% jump fuel tankage but much less than 1xPn% power plant fuel tankage. This could be a real volume saver¹ and there is no reasonable explanation why it's not a routine feature of starship design.

¹ Assuming, of course, that you're accepting those ridiculous power plant fuel consumption rates in the first place.​

Another reason to stick with L-Hyd is ready access to gas giant refueling, where many systems may not have water or may have it at distant Oort clouds.

Gas giant refuelling is something that only military ships, scout vessels exploring unknown territory, and a vanishingly small number of civilian starships would use. Certainly not worth spending potentially revenue-generating cargo tonnage on.


Hans

 

[kilemall]

¹ Assuming, of course, that you're accepting those ridiculous power plant fuel consumption rates in the first place.​

I'm looking at fuel consumption to also be reaction thrust fuel, and in looking up my general issues on L-Hyd found that it could be a massive coolant for hot reentries, if that is IYTU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_X-30#Development

​

Gas giant refuelling is something that only military ships, scout vessels exploring unknown territory, and a vanishingly small number of civilian starships would use. Certainly not worth spending potentially revenue-generating cargo tonnage on.


Hans

In general I agree, not only do you lose cargo tonnage for saving centicreds on the credit in fuel cost, but the time cost and risk is just not worth it.

Indeed, whatever savings you make in fuel you lose in crewing costs, losing time or having to pay storage for cargo delivery, and likely will have morale problems long term if traditional merchant shore leave is constantly cut.

EXCEPT.

If the method allows you to get to places far faster, or to places no one can usually operate a trade route for, and there is a payoff for doing so.

Let's say you have a Jump-3 merchant ship, pretty high end for players but not too outrageous. Add the 10% for the water load (actually could be a bit less, let's call it 8%), then instead of sticking to the Jump-3 corridors you cut across by jumping to empty space, on a Jump-6 route.

Depending upon how the subsector is laid out, you may cut WEEKS out of a normal J-3 routing. The GM would then have to figure out what that is worth to passengers and cargo clients and if that figure surpasses a more mundane jump route operation with more cargo space.

In the case of a Jump-4 plus fueling, could be able to reach across a jump-8 rift and get system trade going that have never had effective interstellar interaction. Do drop tanks, and that could be a Jump-12 route.

Well, until the big boys show up and operate in the same manner....

 

[whartung]

Well the other detail is getting the water to store it in the first place.

It's a fine idea, but acquiring it can be a challenge for many ships.

This also brings up the question of where do star ports get their refined fuel. Are they breaking water down mostly? Has to be cheaper to dip the fuel from a water world than fly out to the local Gas Giant and bring it back. Plus you get free Oxygen for the high port's use.

 

[Timerover51]

Might as well get back to this.

I did some number crunching on the energy output of the fission reaction of U-235/Pu-239 and the Deuterium fusion reaction.

The fission of 2 ounces of either U-235 or Pu-239 will give you a power output of 132.4 kilowatts per hour for an entire year. The fusion of 2 ounces of Deuterium will give you 385.8 kilowatts per hour for an entire year. For a power output of 10 Megawatts per hour for an entire year, you would need to fission 151 ounces of U-235/Pu-239 or fuse 51.85 ounces of Deuterium.

Pure D20 weighs 1.107 times that of pure H2O, so a cubic meter of D2O will weigh 1107 kilograms, and contain 221.4 kilograms of Deuterium. That is sufficient Deuterium to supply a 10 Megawatt power plant for 150 years of continuous operation, or supply a 1.5 Gigawatt power plant for one year. Based on that, a cubic meter of heavy water, D2O, should be more than adequate for a ship's power plant for a year. Ten Megawatts represents the power requirements of a small town. I have a hard time visualizing a ship requiring more than that. That cubic meter of heavy water can be subsumed into the space requirements for a power plant, being either 1/13.5 or 1/14th of a Traveller Displacement Ton.

Edit Note: I should state that this would be for basic ship's power, and not for either Maneuver or Jump Drive supply. What I may do is break the Power Plant into 2 plants, one for basic ship's power, and a larger plant for the Maneuver and Jump Drive. Against that, I could use the basic ship's plant at the 10 Megawatt output to charge the Jump Drive capacitors while in Jump Space and while at a planet, assuming that ship's power plant operation is allowed, plus charging them while outbound from a planet to the Jump Point. Need to think about this.

 

[Enoki]

Now, the way I've explained FTL travel (jumps) is to say that the system creates a gravetic singularity, a well if you will, ahead of the ship into which it "falls." It always emerges a week later as time is a constant with distance (speed) travelled as the variable in a time, speed, distance sort of equation.

This means the ship only has to produce the energy necessary for a jump momentarily to create the well. Once that happens the ship "falls" into the well and emerges at the singularity point a week later. This amounts to bending a gravity wave in a sense.

The jump 6 limitation is explained as being a matter of how far you can bend gravity before it "breaks" and awful things happen. Thus, jump 6 is the most you can bend gravity and achieve FTL in 4th to 6th dimension space. The well collapses behind the ship so when it reaches the singularity point and returns to normal space nothing is left of its jump. Energy is conserved within the universe.

Yea, there are a whole lot of if's in that but it does give some sort of pseudo-scientific reason for the limit.

 

[kilemall]

The way I play it Time is that there are three basic ship level power sources- traditional fusion like your deuterium, fission, and He³ fusion.

Trad fusion is cheap pay as you go fuel ala default mechanics,

fission you pay up, forego half of the plant fueling and are fueled for years but trade radiation hazard in power plant damage, long term neutronic embrittlement and having to refuel if the plant is lost, vs.

He³ fusion being even more expensive then fission to fuel and costs that much more if lost, but requires less space due to less shielding/aneutronic fusion.


​

Up front capitalization and brutal loss/replacement losses vs. benefits.

I have a lot of Belter ships operating fission plants even as they are phased out elsewhere, because they like not having to bother with refueling operations nearly as often, time is money in the Belt.

 

[Timerover51]

Problem with water as your hydrogen storage medium is that you would have to electrolyze it as you go, which might work fine for just the power plant, but not the massive dumping of fuel to form the jump bubble.

Another reason to stick with L-Hyd is ready access to gas giant refueling, where many systems may not have water or may have it at distant Oort clouds.

Per the Annic Nova in Traveller Canon, see JTAS #1 and Double Adventure #1-Annic Nova and Shadows, no Jump Bubble is needed, so no massive dumping of Liquid H for it, so no need for massive Liquid H storage tanks.

I assume that when a ship Jumps, it generates an artificial "worm hole" via a cable mesh network included as part of the hull. The length of the Jump is dependent on how intense the initial impulse was, with the "worm hole" breaking down after about a week, plus or minus a small percentage.

Still working on how big a percentage, as with !% with a Jump-6 Drive would mean that you would be off about two-tenths of a light year, and even with Jump-1 you would be off about 285 light-hours, which would leave you way outside of Pluto's orbit if you were Jumping to Earth.