A good antagonist is hard to find

[Gnusam Netor]

Well here goes...

MegaTraveller was my first English RPG and I really liked the setting and the, well, hmmhmm side of it (no faeries n'stuff). Of course Gnusam, 15 years old, full of hormones and with a rather poor grasp of the language used, thought he knew everything. It soon showed that everything was not enough though. He had – for instance - great trouble with this mysterious “Task” thingy, which really was a show-stopper until he understood what it meant.
"It’s not 'skill' what in the world is it?"

Anyway, I (me?) and my mates designated me as the sci-fi GM of our little group. Unfortunately my campaign never really got epic in the sense of life-absorbing to the nth level, but still - we had fun - and really, isn't that all that matters?
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand of course; I just find my own life more interesting then most other things.

---- The actual topic ----
Although I don’t really like the rebellion, I think it corrected a major setting flaw in CT and/or the pre-reb-3I milieu, the flaw of the almighty juggernaut mauling everything in its way. The rebellion, as a side-process also created several possible antagonists that didn’t exist before, which is good. However, perhaps their specific/individual reasons for actually coming into existence were a bit shallow and thus not so good.
Anyway, IMHO that is really the problem with the CT-universe, the lack of good antagonists. The Zhodani and even more, the Solomani are portrayed as too ‘weak’ compared to the 3I and that makes them sub-optimal antagonists. IMTU, I toyed with the idea of the Hivers manipulating the Confederation into provoking the 3I and thus starting the Rim War, this was the real(tm) reason. This, in my mind, makes the Hiver/Solomani aggregate a good antagonist.
BTW, what I didn’t like with the rebellion was ultimate destruction of … everything, that’s simply no fun, I would have liked the war to ultimately have ended with some sort of peace and subsequent rebuilding, IMTU it did of course.

+ So what?
Well take a movie for instance, I think that the good old badass Soviet Union, with its 60,000 tanks and it’s Chock armies and Artillery corps and Kiev class cruisers and…and…
*drooling*
makes a better antagonist then North Korea, with the dude and his silly haircut. A good story needs a good, plausible conflict of some sort and it’s a lot easier if the antagonists (Zho’s, Sol’s …) are on the same power level as the protagonist (3I).

(maybe a better analogy would have been Starwars… with The Empire/Darth Vader/Star Destroyers as antagonists to the protagonists in the rebels/Luke/Leia/Han.)

+ Ok, so what, it’s not like my players are admirals or archdukes, is it?
No I just think it makes for more interesting times if the underlying threat is there, even if the GM’s story isn’t directly affected. That’s why I like the T20 milieu better then CT (and yes MT too). Two more or less even entities, slugging it out, far away. Big things (like wars) affect things far away though.


---- Me and my life again ----
This is actually a development from the “Are the Solomani evil” thread. The thread starter, cymew, and I know each other, I actually posted in that thread too, but a long time ago and not as Gnusam.

ok, I’m getting tired, bed time soon. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say and that you think that my arguments are smart and original and enlightening and… and… and…

and readable

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, Gnusam, you are right that a good antagonist helps make a good story - even if it's just the backstory. I think the idea with CT was that those spots external to the 3I should be powerful enough to bug people close to them, and strong enough to resist 3I encroachment, but not strong enough to actually disrupt the Imperium.

 

[Maladominus]

I disagree Gnusam.

You don't need a War or some massive Rebellion to create good antagonists or interesting story plots.

The CT Golden Age of Strephon was a wonderful place for role playing, and for creating excellent stories and plots. The Imperium might not be "at war" constantly, but there is always a Cold War going on against the Zhodani Consulate as well as the Solomani Confederation.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

IMTU 'Known Space' is only a vague rumor hinted at in classified documents, which refer to inactive co-ordinates in the Stargate network. The biggest 'antagonist' my players have is lack of information. A typical conversation might go something like this:

"P387TG3 should get us to Tau-Rae but the seventh chevron won't lock."

"... could be stellar drift..."

"... or they buried their Stargate like the people of M195GB2..."

"... or maybe they have caller ID and just don't want to talk to us!"

"Indeed."

Since I'm winging the integration of Stargate with Classic Traveller, my players can not sneak a peek at the official rule books in the hobby store and try to second-guess what's in store for them.

They have noticed that whenever they seem to get too close to 'The Truth That's Out There' someone screws up. They're slowly developing a profile of 'The Big Bad Guy' that's been trying to sabotage their Stargate project.

An antagonist does not have to be obvious or known to the players. You don't even have to have any specific details written about the villain. Just determine a set of conditions that require higher die rolls for success. For instance:

"Apply a DM of -1 to all success rolls involving stealth and concealment when visiting any Stargated world after the third time and approaching the world by jump-capable starship, or if using electronic equipment on a Stargated world."

A series of such conditions will eventually induce the need to characterize them. Ask yourself 'Who would be interested in technological activity near a Stargate?' and 'Who would have the capability to detect us without they themselves being detected by us?'

Ignorance breeds fear. Stay alert. Trust no one. Keep your cell-phone handy.

 

[Gnusam Netor]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, Gnusam, you are right that a good antagonist helps make a good story - even if it's just the backstory. I think the idea with CT was that those spots external to the 3I should be powerful enough to bug people close to them, and strong enough to resist 3I encroachment, but not strong enough to actually disrupt the Imperium.

Perhaps it is as you say and you do raise a good point. "Sovjet" could very well be too powerful or too much of a focal-point of interest for the heroes/players

(a vulcano erupted you say? gaah!! those commie bastards...)

 

[Gnusam Netor]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
I disagree Gnusam.

You don't need a War or some massive Rebellion to create good antagonists or interesting story plots.

I wasn't talking about war or some massive rebellion. I hope i conveyed the opinion that:
</font>

• All good stories need a good antagonist.</font>
• The consulate and the confederation are too weak to make good antagonists.</font>

The CT Golden Age of Strephon was a wonderful place for role playing, and for creating excellent stories and plots. The Imperium might not be "at war" constantly, but there is always a Cold War going on against the Zhodani Consulate as well as the Solomani Confederation.

I agree.

 

[Gnusam Netor]

Originally posted by Heretic Keklas Rekobah:
IMTU 'Known Space' is only a vague rumour hinted at in classified documents, which refer to inactive co-ordinates in the Stargate network. The biggest 'antagonist' my players have is lack of information.

Our own ignorance, the harshest mistress of them all...

(nr. 2 for me is my car)

Since I'm winging the integration of Stargate with Classic Traveller, my players can not sneak a peek at the official rule books in the hobby store and try to second-guess what's in store for them.

They have noticed that whenever they seem to get too close to 'The Truth That's Out There' someone screws up. They're slowly developing a profile of 'The Big Bad Guy' that's been trying to sabotage their Stargate project.

Your setting sounds interesting and i guess that particular ignorance-feel is probably hard to replicate in CT.

An antagonist does not have to be obvious or known to the players.

I agree 100%.

Ignorance breeds fear. Stay alert. Trust no one. Keep your cell-phone handy.

i like it - consider that stolen.

(btw, Do I smell Paranoia in the air?)

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

There is no need for fear, citizen. Remember that the Mainframe is your Guardian (... or was that 'Colossus is your Friend'?)

 

[jappel]

Just a few ideas:
- criminal organizations, whether planetary (on the PCs base of operations, if they have one) or multi-system (say, a smuggling ring the PCs have crossed)
- a noble or wealthy individual who's plans the PCs have thwarted in some way (could be a great build-up as they work their way up through the minions and cut-outs to figure out who the real antagonist is)
- a cult or quasi-religious organization (see Iain Banks' "Against a Dark Background")
- a megacorp, or at least a key regional player in a megacorp
- the intelligence service of one of the powers - perhaps they were used as pawns in some scheme

Enjoy,

John

 

[parmasson]

Not one bad guy but three or four all competing for power and the PCs become caught in between.

 

[parmasson]

On second thought,
I am tired of the bad guy as the take-over-the-world uber-powerful types you find in movies. A good antagonist is one that is dangerous but comprehendible. We are not playing with superheroes here. The local investment bank, a local gang boss, a single pirate captain bent on revenge are of the right scale here. It keeps the plot from becoming the “what can we do to save the universe today” oneupsmenship of some campaigns. Keep it local, keep it real. Our current Traveller campaign takes place on three to four worlds all in one subsector.
A good antagonist is one that is at the level of the players.

 

[jappel]

Most of the adversarial groups I suggested could easily be scaled down.

Kurega, for some reason your post evoked "Run Silent, Run Deep" - the war-long duel between the American sub captain and the Japanese sub chaser expert - something like that, eh?

- John

 

[parmasson]

Yeah, a personalized bad guy.

 

[Falkayn]

In CT you could always have the bad guys be someone in power in the 3I that doesn't like the players for some reason (a Domain level bureaucrat who takes a dislike to free trader for instance). Then the power of the 3I becomes the thing that you are afraid of, even thought your PCs might see themselves as on the same side as the 3I in general.

The other way is to play outside the 3I in a Sowrd Worlds, or Julian Protectorate, or Solomani campaign where the players see the 3I as the great enemy state that they need to deal with.

However, don't the Zhodani have some of that fear aura due to their psionics?

 

[Uncle Bob]

I don't know what you want. Even at their current strength a PC, even as an Imperial Duke, can't be more than an annoyance to the Solimannis or Zhodani. At most the players can thwart a minor plot or unmask a spy.

More reasonable foes include a crime lord, pirate gang, rogue psionic cabal, even a planetary dictator. Those are challanges a party can defeat in a 30-week campaign.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
Yeah, a personalized bad guy.

They're the best. I rather like situations where you quite like the bad guy. An example from my campaign:

The Solomani Rim, c.1116. The PCs have been recruited by SolSec as deniable, expendable agents. They really hate their boss - he's a real Nazi, and they're not quite genetically-pure enough for his liking, so there's quite a bit of friction. Their nemesis is Sir Alexander Delorean, a high-ranking Imperial agent, who they actually get on quite well with ("Just because we're enemies doesn't mean we can't be civilised about it.")

After the Rebellion begins, a mysterious, deadly epidemic breaks out on Terra. Delorean comes to the PCs with evidence that it was actually released by their boss (it's genetically-engineered to affect non-Solomani). It turns out it was based on a sample the party stole from an Imperial research in one of their first missions!

They ended up working for the bad guys, who wanted to stop the good guys, who were actually worse than the bad guys...which was fun...

 

[Gnusam Netor]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
I don't know what you want. Even at their current strength a PC, even as an Imperial Duke, can't be more than an annoyance to the Solimannis or Zhodani. At most the players can thwart a minor plot or unmask a spy.

Are you asking me?
I assume that you are, for the sake of the discussion.

I don't know what you think when you (and several others) hear the word "antagonist", obviously it is not the same thing as I think when I hear it. Antagonists can be many things in my mind, but generally, the antagonist is the thing in the story that makes the story go forward - or with other words - makes the protagonist (the heroes if you will) make choices. It can be the weather, it can be your own ignorance and it can certainly be one individual.

Anyway, when I wrote that an alien Empire is the antagonist to the players/heroes I thought of that Empire as Mordor (with Sauron as the ultimate adversary). However, what you are most likely to meet in a fight is only a group of orcs (and the occasional Nazgûl perhaps), but the antagonist is still Mordor/Sauron.

It’s not like you are on an open field supposed to wrestle the combined might of the Zhodani Consulate, did you really think that was what I meant?

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:

More reasonable foes include a crime lord, pirate gang, rogue psionic cabal, even a planetary dictator. Those are challanges a party can defeat in a 30-week campaign.

Are you telling me - assuming that you in fact are telling me- that you have a right to decide how I and my friends want to play Traveller?

Oohh, you are from Texas I see...

 

[Gnusam Netor]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
On second thought,
I am tired of the bad guy as the take-over-the-world uber-powerful types you find in movies. A good antagonist is one that is dangerous but comprehendible.

I agree, to stop-the-take-over-the-world-types style plots can certainly be tiresome. Still, the “Lord of the Rings” and the “Star wars” movies has got something that appeals to many.

That is not to say that “Schindlers list” doesn’t contain a good plot, with a good antagonist. I guess that is what you meant, more “Schindlers list” style plots and less “Star wars” plots?
BTW, who could the antagonist be in Schindlers list?

To all
I don't hope that my brief exposure here at CotI incites a flame war, that is not my intention. If I come of sounding as a jerk, I apologize right now. I am just trying to contribute to the forum with interesting thoughts.

 

[parmasson]

<Flame thrower powers down.>
Personally I would avoid inflammatory language.

“Schindlers list” style plots and less “Star wars” plots?
BTW, who could the antagonist be in Schindlers list?

The villain is the system in Shin.’s list. The victory is in gaming the system or making a small difference. The Little Guy may not be able to change the universe but he can carve out a place for himself in the Imperium. The current campaign has the PCs with two ships and a house in the countryside and I think they consider themselves to be very successful. On an Imperial scale a couple of Patrol Cruisers could wipe out everything and be home in time for lunch.

 

[Gnusam Netor]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
<Flame thrower powers down.>
Personally I would avoid inflammatory language.

Ok, so perhaps something i wrote got you to power up in the first place. Please feel free to point it out and I will either try to explain my intention better or retract the statement and apologize.