5th Ed. What does it solve?

[robject]

First acknowledging the other posts with valid criticisms, I want to pile onto David's:

What does T5 fix? Well if you felt the physics based design systems like FF&S were too complex T5's description based design systems are simpler if a bit less flexible. Even starship creation is mainly CT book 2 with lots of bells and whistles added.

[...]

Character creation is great, the best it's ever been. As detailed as CT/MT advanced character creation but almost as fast as CT basic character creation once you know what and where everything is.

The introduction of standardized rules for sophants, chimeras, and androids were long needed and are much appreciated.

With all of the design subsystems in the core, T5 has the potential to be truly internally compatible from the start and avoid the kinds of ugly, tacked-on subsystem messes that occur when things like armor and weapon design aren't used to design the weapons and armor in the core book.

So, to pile on:

The ship design system, created for player starships, has a better scope than previous editions, without being as complex as MegaTraveller design. It ties up loose ends with 'canon', and consolidates where useful. For example, we now know the probable tech level of the ANNIC NOVA, and how to design it. Small hulls are usable for small craft, cargo pods, and drop tanks. Drives may resemble Book 2, but it works more like High Guard, backed by formulas. (And yes, there is errata)

Character creation got a great shot in the arm by supporting aliens. One major drawback in creating new aliens ("sophonts") was that you had to create career generation tables, new skills, and new characteristics, plus the rules for using them all. No longer. Alien modules just got a dozen pages skinnier. Another feature is that robots, if capable, can go through the career process. This streamlines all non-human player characters into the game. And there's a method for randomly generating new aliens -- which also doubles as a guideline for crafting your own.

Finally, I feel that Traveller needed a gun-design subsystem that doesn't make my head spin since 1980. And I think Traveller5 is that system. And the armor design subsystem is the same kind of thing.

 

[WistfulD]

What about playability of space combat? Gurps 3E and Hero System 5 and 6 E all have very good, logical, straightforward ship design systems which fit well with the rest of the game, but also suck a lot of the fun out of spaceship combat.

 

[robject]

I'm the wrong person to ask about space combat, but the to-hit roll is a Traveller5 task, with range as difficulty, and TL as the base target number. Since the ship with better maneuver determines range, if you've got long-ranged weapons and a faster ship, you've got a strong tactical advantage. If you've got better tech, you have a proportional advantage. If you've got better armor, you have survivability. And if you've got bigger weapons, you pack a bigger punch. (Sorry -- I warned you I wasn't the person to ask about this).

One nice thing is that space combat has mass-attack rules, which means you can group all weapons of one type on your ship into one single attack roll, and you sum the damage if you hit. This is extended further with CommCasters: if your ships have CommCasters you can mass ALL weapons of one type from ALL ships into a single massive attack roll.

 

[cym0k]

One nice thing is that space combat has mass-attack rules, which means you can group all weapons of one type on your ship into one single attack roll, and you sum the damage if you hit. This is extended further with CommCasters: if your ships have CommCasters you can mass ALL weapons of one type from ALL ships into a single massive attack roll.

That sounds brutal! I like it.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Fascinating incites into a system that 'could have been'.

Alas T5 is far from ultimate and is simply never going to be perfect until it's better written and fixed up. It's got a great pile of errata that dedicated Traveller's are working on.

T5 to me, was the problem that has been through my study into the entire range of Traveller systems. That is the 're-invention of the wheel' if you will for each and every new flavour.

To me, T5 is proof that Traveller is the 'Linux' of Sci-Fi RPG's. There's no longer a standard. Even the Travellermap(www.travellermap.com) you can view online(which I thought would put an end to the squabbles but instead added fuel to the fire), seems to change at random on the whims of the main designer. Sometimes it's the 'map of the Traveller universe', then it's 'hey let's change that sector and use the Judges Guild maps' just for kicks and giggles???

So at the end of the day, your Traveller universe will sadly be different from everyone elses with absolutely no guarantee of a standard all Travellers can chat about and T5 along with all the other flavour of the month rules out there which keep piling in further disintegrate the once great universe that got so many gamers hooked on Traveller in the first place. (Exceptions are people who so desperately want Traveller to be the greatest Sci-Fi RPG ever and want to contribute and keep believing that one day an actual new rule book will reveal it's head and show the world something EVERYONE can actually use).

Myself, I live in hope, but T5 just isn't that hope. Look, don't let me bring you down on it. There's obviously potential and heaps of great ideas but sadly it's a tangential screed and a mess in a nutshell. It's a draft for a framework but not an actual rule book for gaming with is what I've boiled it down to. An index is required. The entire character gen section needs to be re-written. I asked several fellow Travellers if they would buy it again if a 2nd edition was released adding in all the errata and all 10 of them, declared they wouldn't touch it. So in short a complete re-write would be in order to give this new material a serious chance.

Like many fellow Travellers, T5, is little more than a collection of new ideas where you may find some of them a good idea and others not so good.

Personally I feel Traveller has drifted from it's primary goal which is to be a Sci-Fi Role Playing GAME. It shouldn't be about how much detail can I add to confuse and confound people, it should be about the story, having fun and adventure, not being bogged down in trying to be the fictional version of real life space travel.

At it's core(after some reading), Traveller to me is without doubt a flavour of E.C. Tubbs, Dumerest saga(have a read, it's a fun filled adventure).

My honest recommendation is to try one of the following systems, each with there main issues.

1. CT: Classic Traveller to me is the best in terms of providing the most complete overview of the only true nicely laid out guide to the universe and background of Traveller with a big emphasis on adventure(if you havn't played them yet, your in for a treat, there's some great ones there. Many I still have to play myself). Yes there are multiple rule books, but for the most part, they all tie in nicely and it all works together. Best of all with the CT CD-ROM from the FFE site, you get everything in a gorgeous digital bundle, so the multiple books really isn't an issue anymore.

2. MT: Megatraveller provided the best artwork and modules(particularly the now hard to find and I wish it would hurry up in it's slow progress to become a CDROM, Digest Group Publications DDGP).

3. Mongoose Traveller: The first serious look at a modern adaptation of the classic Traveller system. Alas it's for the most part an alternative universe Traveller system but it's admittedly one of the best go's at getting the classic system into a format usable for the modern gamer I've seen to date.

4. T20 Traveller: This version has wowed me with it's artwork(I've still to get the archive now available from FFE just for this) but at the end of the day, the D20 system, is simply not the Traveller gaming system and isn't that what you play Traveller for? But for those that like D20 systems, this is definately for you.

I hope that's of some assistance and in short T5 solves the hard core Traveller's need to discuss rules in depth and add complexities most gamers will never have the time for in there life times. It's an addition if you really want it but seriously, if your new to Traveller then CT is without doubt the first place I would point the uninitiated.

Good luck and may your Travels be interstellar and sensational.

 

[rnadams2]

On the different versions of Traveller

A couple of months ago I found myself in a quandary. I hand just stumbled across an old friend that I had spent a fair amount of time with back in the late 70s and through the 80s: Traveller. My difficulty was this: If I wanted to become reacquainted with the game, should I buy the latest offering in Traveller⁵? Or maybe I should grab the modernized and well-established version of the game I once loved and go for Mongoose Traveller? After much soul searching (because both would make a noticeable dent in my wallet), I opted for my old love in the Classic Traveller CD-ROM.

I admit that Traveller⁵ holds a lot of intrigue for me, but I just couldn't get past the reviews of the product enough to spend the money on it. In short, there seemed to be too many detractors, even taking into account the obligatory new-thing-haters and old-thing-fanboys.

And Mongoose Traveller was, to me, just too much to spend to get something close to what, for me, worked just fine a few decades ago.

In the end I perceived that, although a little dated in some of its material (equipment related, mainly), there wasn't a thing wrong with what I used to play. But then, maybe that makes me one of those new-thing-haters or an old-thing-fanboys.

Traveller, in my eyes, consists of two very different things: a game mechanic and a setting. The game can exist without the setting, and the setting can more or less exist without the game (evidenced by the existence of GURPS, d20, and Hero versions of the Traveller Universe). Each of the GDW/FFE versions of the game--the ones using the Traveller game mechanic in one form or another--has introduced a different era within the same setting. T5 is, I believe, an exception as I remember reading that it exists in the same pre-revolution era as CT. And I love the fact that I can read an article or adventure for another version of the game and it's still relevant to CT with very little conversion necessary. UPPs and UWPs, for example, are for the most part standard across the board.

In the end I'm left asking, "Why change the rules if there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them?" Could Traveller survive if all that was ever published after the initial LBBs in the 70s and 80s were supplements, modules, and setting-related material? I think, since there's still a good-sized number of folks still playing CT, the answer is yes.

I don't own T5, so I can't make any judgement as to whether it's a good or bad product, but I can say that, when all the other versions of the game have active followings, any new version should bring something new to the table that players can't live without. Although, with the other four GDW/FFE versions of the game out of production, a new version seems to make sense versus suddenly publishing new material for one of the older versions.

In the end, everything's about personal preference. If you like what T5 has to offer, by all means, go for it. If you think an earlier iteration of the rules is the best, stick with that. I may actually buy the T5 CD-ROM just to see what can be incorporated into my CT games.

But I'll need to take care lest I become converted to the new way of playing.

 

[robject]

[...] in short T5 solves the hard core Traveller's need to discuss rules in depth and add complexities most gamers will never have the time for in there life times. [...]

Good luck and may your Travels be interstellar and sensational.

The Traveller5 Core Rules is definitely a foundational reference work, and has a number of issues which are being addressed which we all know about.

I appreciate your recommendations. I like certain aspects of all of the rules systems you've mentioned. However, what I would like is to see how those recommendations relate to Traveller5's strengths, in the spirit of the thread's topic of "What does it solve?"

For example, Classic Traveller is built on a nice, tidy, and simple three-book core rule set. Tell us how Traveller5 solves CT's problem with being built on its simplistic rules, and CT's related problem of where to find expanded rules and how to know when to choose them, and the implications of those choices, and how that affects newcomers to Traveller.

You could go on to mention how CT's adventures are rather not what modern gamers expect to see out of adventures, OR you could show that CT adventures work relatively well with Traveller5, or any other Traveller rules system for that matter.

Then, you could show how MegaTraveller solved CT's problems, in exchange for a smaller set of new problems... if indeed you think it has problems. You could explain that Traveller5 uses MegaTraveller's ideas of ranges (for example) in a better way (or, if you disagree, show T5's intention, how it was intended to improve on the use of range). You could show how Traveller5 works around DGP's Lost Material, and how new artists are bringing new life to the line, which in MT times was energized by the excellent Rob Caswell.

From there, you could show how Traveller5 solves problems that Mongoose Traveller is currently having, if you know of any. I know a couple potential ones, but MGT is an evolving system too. You could also note parts of the core rules that were consciously borrowed and adapted from Traveller5.

You get the idea.

 

[robject]

A couple of months ago I found myself in a quandary. I hand just stumbled across an old friend that I had spent a fair amount of time with back in the late 70s and through the 80s: Traveller. [...] I opted for my old love in the Classic Traveller CD-ROM.

And of course you made the correct choice.

Traveller5 integrates rules together elegantly, but the core book is dense, and requires you to know Traveller well. In particular, Classic Traveller.

So, consider the CT CD-ROM a prerequisite, and then wait for the T5 reprint before making a decision.

Also, if you'd like a taste of T5, pick up a copy of Imperiallines for $2.99. The material is useful even without having the rules.

 

[rnadams2]

And of course you made the correct choice.

Traveller5 integrates rules together elegantly, but the core book is dense, and requires you to know Traveller well. In particular, Classic Traveller.

So, consider the CT CD-ROM a prerequisite, and then wait for the T5 reprint before making a decision.

Also, if you'd like a taste of T5, pick up a copy of Imperiallines for $2.99. The material is useful even without having the rules.

Thanks for the advice, and the confirmation. I would add, though, that preferences are driven by individual desires; any if the choices would most likely have been a "correct" one.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

The Traveller5 Core Rules is definitely a foundational reference work, and has a number of issues which are being addressed which we all know about.

I appreciate your recommendations. I like certain aspects of all of the rules systems you've mentioned. However, what I would like is to see how those recommendations relate to Traveller5's strengths, in the spirit of the thread's topic of "What does it solve?"

For example, Classic Traveller is built on a nice, tidy, and simple three-book core rule set. Tell us how Traveller5 solves CT's problem with being built on its simplistic rules, and CT's related problem of where to find expanded rules and how to know when to choose them, and the implications of those choices, and how that affects newcomers to Traveller.

You could go on to mention how CT's adventures are rather not what modern gamers expect to see out of adventures, OR you could show that CT adventures work relatively well with Traveller5, or any other Traveller rules system for that matter.

Then, you could show how MegaTraveller solved CT's problems, in exchange for a smaller set of new problems... if indeed you think it has problems. You could explain that Traveller5 uses MegaTraveller's ideas of ranges (for example) in a better way (or, if you disagree, show T5's intention, how it was intended to improve on the use of range). You could show how Traveller5 works around DGP's Lost Material, and how new artists are bringing new life to the line, which in MT times was energized by the excellent Rob Caswell.

From there, you could show how Traveller5 solves problems that Mongoose Traveller is currently having, if you know of any. I know a couple potential ones, but MGT is an evolving system too. You could also note parts of the core rules that were consciously borrowed and adapted from Traveller5.

You get the idea.

Thanks robject, I'll think about it. One thing I'd like to add is: If your not sure of a Traveller system, then grab the CDROM versions from FFE. There a bargain. That way you can check it all out and decide for yourself without shelling out huge amounts of cash for the hard copy versions. Best of all, the 4 for 3 deal exists, so you can grab 4 titles for the price of 3 for almost less than the cost of purchasing a hard cover T5 and shipping it to your destination. Also with the versions you don't want to use, there's a wealth of adventures and resources you can use in your preferred version anyway, making it a veritable bargain and treasure trove of adventures. T5 is only the rules at this stage but as other Travellers will tell you, there's a lot of rules in there. With this method, it's a cheap way to get into a myriad of Traveller rules without the huge cost of printed versions. Enjoy the joys that only technology can bring and dive in new Travellers. Check out Traveller and decide for yourselves which rules system you want to use.

 

[rich4421972]

Here's my take on "solved or unsolved"

My understanding was that Traveller5 was to solve or resolve many of the unexpected consequences of Traveller4, a vast system of good rules and fascinating settings and literature written by a dozen (or more) authors. I really love T4 but I can see how, in some cases, it created a very complex system. I have most of the Traveller4 books and I love all of them. I find myself referring to a different one each time I want to know a different fact or cultural insight. The "core rulebook" of Traveller4 seems to have been an outline of "good things that would be revealed in future books."

It is possible that T4 needed all of its supplements together to establish what were and were not "canon rules" and unique to Traveller4's "Milieu 0" (I feel that T4's core system needed both T4: Starships and T4: FF&S to be relatively complete)

Traveller5 solved this perceived problem by uniting all of its rules into one book (well, a big book) and maintaining a solid core of writers. There is a main author and a few co-authors and a very tight collection of playtesters and editors. The different settings are explained in the first few pages of the book along with giving credit to previous authors and artists. Artwork is simple (and similar to that in JTAS and Classic Traveller) but explanatory.

Traveller5 is "milieu agnostic" which means that players and referees can draw off of any setting from "The Long Night" To the "Golden Era" to the eventual post-collapse setting of 1248 IC.


Traveller5 returned the game to a simpler rules system. The QSP really is a quick ship profile (with a few extensions: crew, computers, power plant, hull fittings and etc.) Character design is back to the 7-digit UPP and a collection of skills and equipment. Weapons and armor can be designed but are still recorded in a very simple way

 

[robject]

I hadn't thought of it that way before, Rich, but I think you're right.

T4 followed the Classic Traveller model closely: publish an updated version of "The Traveller Book", then supplement it with modules. Once the T4 rule corpus was essentially complete, then Marc started thinking about an edited update -- T4.1.

Starting with character generation, his rewrites expanded into the use of Traveller concepts in more integrated ways, and choices available from other rule sets, and things that existed in the Traveller Universe but never had rules. Resulting in one gigantic reference work, T5.

 

[rich4421972]

I hadn't thought of it that way before, Rich, but I think you're right.

T4 followed the Classic Traveller model closely: publish an updated version of "The Traveller Book", then supplement it with modules. Once the T4 rule corpus was essentially complete, then Marc started thinking about an edited update -- T4.1.

I wish that "Merchant Captain Alexander Lascelles Johnson" could have been included in the T5 Core Book (or at least on the CDROM). It was one of the biggest helps in the Traveller4 Core Book (I think that it is now a free download from one of the blogs). I feel that the Johnson example really integrates all of the various settings into one another

 

[Draconian]

T5 is only the rules at this stage but as other Travellers will tell you, there's a lot of rules in there.

There are a few supplements. Greg Lee wrote the Cirque adventure book specifically for T5: 24 adventures on planets in the Spinward Marches, touring as a circus.
FFE has released a set of deck plans of classic ship designs but with T5 stats.

 

[rich4421972]

There are a few supplements. Greg Lee wrote the Cirque adventure book specifically for T5: 24 adventures on planets in the Spinward Marches, touring as a circus.
FFE has released a set of deck plans of classic ship designs but with T5 stats.

The Imperiallines 06 and 07 editions (from a certain seller of PDF game products) are also very helpful and fun. I think they were written by a few designers of the T5 Core book. ( not naming names or companies).

I like the way that the designers of T5 have tried to follow the original flavor of the Classic game ("CT"), MegaTraveller and Traveller4. I don't mention TNE because it used A d10 system based on Twilight: 2000 and Dark Conspiracy.

Mongoose seems to have made an outer space version of the very popular "Judge Dredd," game. "The Conan rpg" and "Strontium Dog" also featured the "house rules" of Mongoose. It's comforting to know how robust the Judge Dredd rules are but I didn't buy the Judge Dredd or Strontium Dog games. I wish I did but I had money limitations at the time.

I'm glad that the T5 designers kept a rule system that had the simplicity of the original game (once you have read the book and considered the errata, omissions and clarifications) rather than inventing or borrowing something completely different. T5 ( and MegaTraveller and Traveller4) is an example of partially new game systems that still used rules that tried to capture Traveller games that preceeded

So, in the way of resolving issues, I feel that Traveller5 started with the beginnings of the "Classic" rules and added many new features and notations (thing makers, beast makers, sophonts and clones, etc.). The eHex system and (roll under)10d6 task system are useful and seem more realistic than using only two plain dice. My greatest confusions in T5 origionate in the Risk/Reward system and the QREBS feature. I also have trouble understanding the fighter skill and what is "wafer jack" armor.

I think that is where the "Ultimate Traveller" term came from. Otherwise, it might a reference to the Ultimate (Ult) tech level stage of the design cycle (see p. 246, BBB).

Once players grasp the new notations (the Quick Ship Profile, stage levels and sensor notations), I feel that the game is richer (in the exactitude of its rules) than its "classic, Rebellion, Milieu 0 and New Era cousins.

 

[infojunky]

Well, as the resident professional CharGen Guru is there anything I can help with?

Cool explain Skill allocation after award.

 

[robject]

I wish that "Merchant Captain Alexander Lascelles Jamison" could have been included in the T5 Core Book (or at least on the CDROM).

I've got him done... I think I have him here on COTI.

Yes, here he is.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=30186

 

[robject]

So, in a way, I feel that Traveller5 started from the beginnings of the "Classic" rules and added new features and notations (thing makers, beast makers, sophonts and clones, etc.).

The extended hex system and 10d6 task system are useful and seem more realistic than using only two plain dice. My greatest problems/difficulties in T5 are the Risk/Reward system and the QREBS feature

[...]

Once players grasp the new notations (the Quick Ship Profile, stage levels and sensor notations), I feel that the game is richer (in the exactitude of its rules) than its "classic, Rebellion, Milieu 0 and New Era cousins.

Thanks for that. I think what you're feeling, regarding T5 seeming to spin off from CT, is just that Marc was heavily involved in both, so it's his brain at work. I used to think T5 was closer to T4, but so much of this is whole cloth, the only thing they might really have in common anymore appears to be that they use multiple dice to represent task difficulty.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

There are a few supplements. Greg Lee wrote the Cirque adventure book specifically for T5: 24 adventures on planets in the Spinward Marches, touring as a circus.
FFE has released a set of deck plans of classic ship designs but with T5 stats.

Yes, however that does not come on the CDROM available from FFE.

 

[WistfulD]

Thanks for that. I think what you're feeling, regarding T5 seeming to spin off from CT, is just that Marc was heavily involved in both, so it's his brain at work. I used to think T5 was closer to T4, but so much of this is whole cloth, the only thing they might really have in common anymore appears to be that they use multiple dice to represent task difficulty.

I'm getting that impression as well. Changing the dice mechanic does not, in and of itself, change the game (heck, our group is considering playing MgT with 3D6 against a target # of 11 instead of 2D6 against 8 just to add variation in rolls), but some of the other changes in T5 certainly do seem like an entirely new game with the same title and author.