5th Ed. What does it solve?

[WistfulD]

Hi. My group has been exploring the wonders of the Heroes System mechanics ever since we got sick of the D20 phenomenon around 2011 or so. I knew that there was some new Traveller editions coming out, and always had them on the back burner to investigate. Well, now I finally have the time and interest, and wow is it more interesting than I expected. So I missed all the flame wars and bashing on 5e and am now mostly just waiting for announcements on when errata announcements and seeing how it plays after that.

One thing that is mentioned in lots of reviews of 5e (those that don't just spend their time griping) is something along the lines of "Traveller 5 was intended to resolve a number of problems in the earlier incarnations, but..." My question is this, "what were those problems, and were they fixed?" What specifically caused Marc to look out at the gaming field and say, "yep, we need to take another shot at this"? The Classic Traveller system that I am familiar with, and the Mongoose version I'm now reading are both pretty simple games. If there's anything that needs fixing, it'd mostly be optional complexity. Is there something I don't know about that neccessitated this very massive undertaking?

Thanks!

 

[GypsyComet]

Sometimes, when you are a designer, the problem is "I no longer like my old designs".

While there are a few Canon examiners who will cite background shifts between editions as "the problem", that is not something that can be fixed.

Aside from the ever present issue of errata, there are few points of broad agreement regarding alleged rules problems found in prior editions. What may be a complete stopper for one person or group is inconsequential to others; a difference of priorities and opinions that goes all directions simultaneously.

 

[Supplement Four]

What specifically caused Marc to look out at the gaming field and say, "yep, we need to take another shot at this"?

I would say that only Marc can answer that.

 

[aramis]

Hi. My group has been exploring the wonders of the Heroes System mechanics ever since we got sick of the D20 phenomenon around 2011 or so. I knew that there was some new Traveller editions coming out, and always had them on the back burner to investigate. Well, now I finally have the time and interest, and wow is it more interesting than I expected. So I missed all the flame wars and bashing on 5e and am now mostly just waiting for announcements on when errata announcements and seeing how it plays after that.

One thing that is mentioned in lots of reviews of 5e (those that don't just spend their time griping) is something along the lines of "Traveller 5 was intended to resolve a number of problems in the earlier incarnations, but..." My question is this, "what were those problems, and were they fixed?" What specifically caused Marc to look out at the gaming field and say, "yep, we need to take another shot at this"? The Classic Traveller system that I am familiar with, and the Mongoose version I'm now reading are both pretty simple games. If there's anything that needs fixing, it'd mostly be optional complexity. Is there something I don't know about that neccessitated this very massive undertaking?

Thanks!

The list of problems people had with Traveller as a whole include:
lack of canon continuity
6 different game engines (CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20)
8 different ship design systems (CT Bk 2, CT Bk5, TNE FF&S, GT, T20, T4 SSDS, T4 QSDS, T4 FF&S2)
4 different time chunks covered (M0, M1000, M1100, M1200).
2 different presumptions on primary n-space drives (Gravitic vs HEPlaR)
3 different solutions to the question of "Why don't we see terrorists smash planets with small craft?
Details of how jump is limited fuzzy.

Of these...

T5 adds
+1 Game engine
+1 design system with a second promised
+1 time frame (M2000?) Called Galaxiad
And answers clearly only one of the big issues... jump is far less fuzzy. But it also detailed in material that most of us had already rejected as being "too difficult to make run.

 

[McPerth]

8 different ship design systems (CT Bk 2, CT Bk5, TNE FF&S, GT, T20, T4 SSDS, T4 QSDS, T4 FF&S2)

9 in fact. You forgot MT.

 

[mike wightman]

Not to mention there are two versions of CT LBB2, then there is HG1 and HG2, and finally GT:ISW.

So make that 12.

 

[Daddicus]

I think it fixes skills (vs. Class Traveller/CT). In CT, every book added more skills. If you weren't playing with all the books, you were missing some skills.

T5 solves that by having exactly 64 skills, and no more.

Of course, that seems to cut out expansionistic stuff, but they're using Knowledges for that. You can have as many knowledges as you like, but they all fit under the 64 specific skills.

I also really like the roll-under mechanic. It's used pretty much throughout T5, for combat, for tasks, etc.

Finally, I think they did a good job with tasks. The harder the task, the more dice you roll, trying to roll under a target. Some things can modify the target number, but then it's one simple roll.

NOTE: There's a maligned "spectacular failure" and "spectacular success". There's a math problem, but with a house rule, I really like it.

 

[aramis]

9 in fact. You forgot MT.

Not to mention there are two versions of CT LBB2, then there is HG1 and HG2, and finally GT:ISW.

So make that 12.

I also left out Brilliant Lances... which is almost a subset of FF&S, but does a couple things different.

13 different ship design systems in 5 major paradigms
Bk2-ish: Bk2-77, Bk2-81, MGT-CRB, MGT Playtest*
Bk5-ish: Bk5-79, Bk5-80, T20
FF&S: Brilliant Lances, FF&S1, FF&S2, SSDS, QSDS
GURPS: GT core/GT:SS, GTIW
MT

* Some people are still using the playtest draft version, because it's better than the released one!

 

[Supplement Four]

I also left out Brilliant Lances... which is almost a subset of FF&S, but does a couple things different.

How about Battle Rider?

 

[aramis]

How about Battle Rider?

No design sequence in it that I recall.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I'm only speaking for myself, but the new system has the potential to provide an integrated balance between characters, weapons, armour, equipment, beasts and worlds. The rules are highly integrated, with key concepts being used throughout: Distance / Range, Tasks and Difficulty, and Size. For me it has the feel of Classic Traveller with a layer of complexity added ... but not going too far. By too far I mean systems like the vehicle / starship design system in MegaTraveller which, although loved by a gearhead like me, didn't make for a practical system everyone could enjoy - it really needed a spreadsheet to work out.

The big qualifier (and hence why I say "potential" above) is that the current rules really have the status of an advanced draft. I would encourage you to explore them, but treat them as a work in progress, with further errata to come out. I'm using them to take players through the The Traveller Adventure, converting from Classic Traveller as I go.

There are some great projects that have happened already, including the Cirque campaign and the Fat Cat Far Trader deck plans. I am looking forward to how T5 develops.

I am posting my gaming session notes in my blog - I am about to post a further entry continuing The Traveller Adventure campaign soon as we just played our next session today. I am still working things out, however.

 

[David Johansen]

Battle Rider was more of a conversion system for FF&S.

What does T5 fix? Well if you felt the physics based design systems like FF&S were too complex T5's description based design systems are simpler if a bit less flexible. Even starship creation is mainly CT book 2 with lots of bells and whistles added.

I think the jury's still out on the task system. For every problem it solves it adds another and combat is still modifier heavy. The whole point of nd6 is to cut out modifiers right? I think Marc was probably right to have kept combat to 2d in the earlier drafts.

Character creation is great, the best it's ever been. As detailed as CT/MT advanced character creation but almost as fast as CT basic character creation once you know what and where everything is.

The introduction of standardized rules for sophants, chimeras, and androids were long needed and are much appreciated.

With all of the design subsystems in the core, T5 has the potential to be truly internally compatible from the start and avoid the kinds of ugly, tacked-on subsystem messes that occur when things like armor and weapon design aren't used to design the weapons and armor in the core book.

There are tonnes of great little bits ranging from the discussion of service medals to the importance evaluation of star systems for laying down trade routes.

Of course, at present there's a real need for the fixing of problems and integration of errata. It's frustrating to know that any work done for T5 now will need to be updated and cross checked with errata.

 

[jcrocker]

Character creation is great, the best it's ever been. As detailed as CT/MT advanced character creation but almost as fast as CT basic character creation once you know what and where everything is.

Yes, but "once you know what and where everything is" can be quite the trick.

I tried to sit down and work up a couple of characters. Yes, there is a learning curve to be expected, but after an hour of trying to figure some things out, wondering if bits got left out or not, and having to track things down from other sections of the book, it was an exercise in frustration, not character generation.

 

[Supplement Four]

Yeah, my first attempt at character creation found the chapter to be a mess, with unanswered questions.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Can I help?

Yeah, my first attempt at character creation found the chapter to be a mess, with unanswered questions.

Well, as the resident professional CharGen Guru is there anything I can help with?

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, as the resident professional CharGen Guru is there anything I can help with?

I don't remember the exact sticking points now. Heck that was back in October when I tried to create a character (and wrote this thread). But, then I ran into a missing table or something that didn't make sense--I'm not sure what. I'd have to go through the process again to figure it out.

 

[jcrocker]

Well, as the resident professional CharGen Guru is there anything I can help with?

That's a generous offer - but this was months back, so I don't recall specifics. I posted in the relevant threads at that time and was told that it would be looked at. I hope it was.

For MegaTraveller and New Era, generation was pretty straightforward. It should be as simple for T5.

 

[Daddicus]

Yes, but "once you know what and where everything is" can be quite the trick.

I tried to sit down and work up a couple of characters. Yes, there is a learning curve to be expected, but after an hour of trying to figure some things out, wondering if bits got left out or not, and having to track things down from other sections of the book, it was an exercise in frustration, not character generation.

I agree. It's very good, but incredibly complex. I'm working on a helper document that might help. See this thread.

 

[cym0k]

Errata aside, I found that T5 character generation to be no problem. But that is just me. I am not experienced in other versions and found once I had "drilled down" into the internal logic of the T5 book, it started to come together.

BUT I did put together a PDF of the tables and charts from the T5 book to help facilitate quicker character generation. I may have said this once before, and I did send it to someone like Rob or Dom.

Long story short, "different strokes for different folks". The beauty of it being the T5 "toolbox" can be used in many many ways. This I like.

 

[David Johansen]

Yeah, finding things like the medals table or where it says what you get for skills and knowledges as they advance and similar nightmares. Even little things like that you have to go to school and get a major or minor before the advanced education column of the skill tables is of any benefit. And you really need to apply the errata for noble characters if you don't want them to be higher ranked than the emperor.

But yes, the tool box aspect of T5 is its greatest strength. I just get tired of feeling stalled at the gate when I want to be racing down the track.