5.09 NPC Effects: something that I would like back (if a bit modified)

[Ackehece]

Hmm just noticed the speed combat rule is now gone. BBH pg 214 NPC Effects has been dropped.
This was the rule that if you did 10 or more damage to a target is eliminate from that combat. 9 or less the NPC ignored

I assume it was removed due to the body pistol issue which could never do 10 damage (or even 0 damage) and the melee combat damage issue
The BP has been a bit ameliorated by rolling flux.

Is there any hope of seeing this rule back? I would just drop the 9 or less ignore in melee

 

[robject]

I liked it, as well, and used it in a game. It kept things fast between 20 combatants.

 

[Epee]

The hit numbers are still in the Gunmaker portion.

 

[Ackehece]

The hit numbers are still in the Gunmaker portion.

V1 V2 are still intact as V1 strips out the bang flash crash cough etc from damage and strictly does D damage. For faster Npc combat.
While I do wish a small paragraph was added to explain v1 damage and v2 damage I suspect that most find the difference logically understandable

But the rule robject and I refer to is what I call the NPC lawnmower rule. Any NPC hit by 10 or greater damage is automatically eliminated from combat (not necessarily dead) the rule had an addendum that caused issues. It stated that NPCS that got hit by 9 or less damage in a single attack ignored it.... meant that melee and small firearms could be ignored by NPCs entirely.
The addendum could be modified to suggest the use of V1 damage type if the GM determines no damage would be inflicted under the Lawnmower rule.

The removal of this rule entirely has in effect NERF'd the PCs at the high end and NERF'd the NPCs at the low end.

 

[Ackehece]

a brief discussion of damage types NPC v1 PC v2

V1 damage model. NPC damage

NPC damage model is the Version One damage model
Damage is given as nD V1 damage with no special effect damage types (unless requested by PC's, then use V2)
Damage is applied in whole die amounts randomly to appropriate Characteristics
V1 Damage is calculated in Gun maker
V1 Damage resistance is calculated in Armour Maker

_________________________

V2 damage model. PC damage

PC damage model is the Version Two damage model
Damage is given as nD damage per damage type listed.
Damage type determines special effects applied to the PC (or NPC if so desired by GM or Players)
Each type of damage is applied in whole die amounts randomly to appropriate Characteristics.
Each type of damage faces resistances wholly separate from each other type. That is radiation resistance does not allow for suffocation resistance
V2 damage is calculated in the Gun maker from design decisions
V2 damage resistance is calculated in armour maker based on design decisions

 

[whulorigan]

Alternate proposal for V1 damage model

Hmm just noticed the speed combat rule is now gone. BBH pg 214 NPC Effects has been dropped.
This was the rule that if you did 10 or more damage to a target is eliminate from that combat. 9 or less the NPC ignored

I assume it was removed due to the body pistol issue which could never do 10 damage (or even 0 damage) and the melee combat damage issue
The BP has been a bit ameliorated by rolling flux.

Is there any hope of seeing this rule back? I would just drop the 9 or less ignore in melee

V1 damage model. NPC damage

NPC damage model is the Version One damage model
Damage is given as nD V1 damage with no special effect damage types (unless requested by PC's, then use V2)
Damage is applied in whole die amounts randomly to appropriate Characteristics
V1 Damage is calculated in Gun maker
V1 Damage resistance is calculated in Armour Maker

_________________________

How about this as a compromise for V1:

Alternate proposal for V1 damage model. NPC damage

NPC damage model is the Version One (V1) damage model

- Damage is given as nD V1 damage with no special effect damage types (unless requested by PC's, then use V2)
- If you do 10 or more damage to a target (after armor subtraction), it is out of commission for that combat.
- If you do 9 or less (after armor subtraction), place a "check-mark" by the NPC, but it is still in play.
- If you hit and damage a "checked" NPC (after armor subtraction), it is out of commission for the rest of the combat.

- V1 Damage is calculated in Gun maker
- V1 Damage resistance is calculated in Armour Maker
​

 

[Supplement Four]

It was a good rule in thought, but, practically, there were problems. For example, the rule could not be used against any weapon that did 1D damage.

So, I think Marc just took it out.




Also missing in 5.09 are the sample weapons. I'd like to see how damage from the weapons are against the armor values of the various armor types (given in the equipment section).



One real big problem I have with 5.09 damage is that damage from weapons that due Cut type damage (blades), do damage every round. This makes them the most powerful weapons in the game. And, it's not logical that one cannot also bleed from a gunshot wound.

Character do not have enough "hit points" to also suffer damage that continues each round. I could see something like fire damage going on from round to round, but damage even from the smallest cut goes on every round until tended to. That's more powerful than a blast from a machinegun.

 

[whulorigan]

One real big problem I have with 5.09 damage is that damage from weapons that due Cut type damage (blades), do damage every round. This makes them the most powerful weapons in the game. And, it's not logical that one cannot also bleed from a gunshot wound.

Character do not have enough "hit points" to also suffer damage that continues each round. I could see something like fire damage going on from round to round, but damage even from the smallest cut goes on every round until tended to. That's more powerful than a blast from a machinegun.

I agree about the continuing damage issue: It should be both bullets and cuts doing continuing damage, or neither.

Perhaps the continuing damage should be 1 point per damage die per round^* after initial damage.

* - Or perhaps 1 point per 2 damage dice (rounded down) per round
​

 

[robject]

How about this as a compromise for V1:

Alternate proposal for V1 damage model. NPC damage

NPC damage model is the Version One (V1) damage model

- Damage is given as nD V1 damage with no special effect damage types (unless requested by PC's, then use V2)
- If you do 10 or more damage to a target (after armor subtraction), it is out of commission for that combat.
- If you do 9 or less (after armor subtraction), place a "check-mark" by the NPC, but it is still in play.
- If you hit and damage a "checked" NPC (after armor subtraction), it is out of commission for the rest of the combat.

- V1 Damage is calculated in Gun maker
- V1 Damage resistance is calculated in Armour Maker
​

The check mark is a nice addition. I'll mention that Joe Fugate had a prototype fast-combat system in use that reminds me, a little bit, of that.

NPCs could be "Still Standing", or "Out". PCs could be "Okay", "Wounded", or "Out".

His rules also required pre-setup lookups to determine weapon, armor, and range relationships, with supplied DMs to simplified combat tasks.

T5 supplies the range and combat tasks, but it sounds to me like there is a missing step that T5 needs to do to support "fast" combat, and that check mark is reasonable.

Here's his quote, which I've edited to show the similarities and the terminology he was using.

I don't remember many of the rules details but I do remember the concept. The basic idea is to have a quick way to figure out if you are still in the battle or not for the NPCs, and just a bit more info for the player characters.

You don't really care about the details of NPCs since there can be so many of them for the ref to run, so the idea is to lighten the ref's management burden. If the NPC is Still Standing, then he's opposing the PCs. Otherwise, he's Out (of the battle) and that's that. Minimal detail.

Leave it to the ref to make it an interesting fight. Once in a while, a guy they thought was down has a "Comeback".

For the PC's just figure out if they are Okay, Wounded (less effective) or Out. Worry about the details after the battle.

After the battle, figure out what really happened in terms of damage. Okay can mean not a scratch or minor damage. Wounded can mean minor to major damage. Out can mean serious damage to dead.

The "fast combat" rules involved some pre-setup computations and table lookups to determine weapon, armor, and range relationships and some difficulty modifiers.

Then some simplified tasks for various common combat activities.

Then combat was in one minute intervals with these simplified tasks. Players would describe what they wanted to do, the ref would describe what the NPCs were doing, we'd roll a few dice for tasks and see who was left in the battle. We used counters and a simplified map of the battlefield.

Then the next turn, and so on.

I had notes on all this somewhere, but I've lost track of the notes. Perhaps someone can take these basic ideas and reconstruct a fast combat system from them. Conveying effect and keeping things moving by minimizing the computational workload were the keys that made it work.

 

[Supplement Four]

Perhaps the continuing damage should be 1 point per damage die per round^* after initial damage.

* - Or perhaps 1 point per 2 damage dice (rounded down) per round
​

If included at all, any damage that carries over from round to round should be an optional rule. It's way too deadly. T5 character don't have 80 hit points to spend.

Now that a combat round is 15 seconds rather than a minute, a T5 character will bleed out much too fast--many times in under a minute.

My vote is to take out the additional Cut damage all the way. Don't have it in a game.



Also....I don't like the bookkeeping it requires. A Ref has to keep up with all the NPCs. It's round two. Now...which ones were cut, and how many points bleed from that one? From that one?

Too busy for a game. Too busy for the Ref. Just cut it out. Don't include it.

 

[elbmc1969]

- If you do 9 or less (after armor subtraction), place a "check-mark" by the NPC, but it is still in play.
[/INDENT]

1 point of damage for the check mark, 1 point of damage to knock them out with the next hit. Very little difference between a 1D weapon and a 2D weapon now. (Yes, 2D weapon has a 1/6 chance of knocking the NPC out of the fight with that first shot, but after than the 1D weapon and the 2D weapon are identical.)

 

[whulorigan]

1 point of damage for the check mark, 1 point of damage to knock them out with the next hit. Very little difference between a 1D weapon and a 2D weapon now. (Yes, 2D weapon has a 1/6 chance of knocking the NPC out of the fight with that first shot, but after than the 1D weapon and the 2D weapon are identical.)

Yes, but the point of the V1 method is that it is to be used at the GM's discretion for large firefights as an abstraction to speed along the combat scenario, rather than getting it bogged down with the nitty-gritty of the wound details of each of 20 nobody-NPCs. It does not have to be used if the GM does not wish to do so - it is merely an option, per the rules.

V1 is meant as a quick-resolution abstraction for combat; it is not meant to be analyzed under a magnifying glass. But it does have to work reasonably believeably. The check-mark helps to resolve the system's primary problem. If you want fine detail, then you need to use V2 (or at least a watered down version of it).

 

[Ackehece]

Yes, but the point of the V1 method is that it is to be used at the GM's discretion for large firefights as an abstraction to speed along the combat scenario, rather than getting it bogged down with the nitty-gritty of the wound details of each of 20 nobody-NPCs. It does not have to be used if the GM does not wish to do so - it is merely an option, per the rules.

V1 is meant as a quick-resolution abstraction for combat; it is not meant to be analyzed under a magnifying glass. But it does have to work reasonably believeably. The check-mark helps to resolve the system's primary problem. If you want fine detail, then you need to use V2 (or at least a watered down version of it).

V1 is actually different from the NPC Effect rules...(as is evident by the removal of the NPC Effect rule)
V1 can still play like V2 combat but abstracts out the special effects (bang, flash, rad, etc...)
NPC Effect rule abstracts out combat characteristic bookkeeping even further than is evident in V1 (no random characteristic damage - just straight up 10 in 1 attack)

cumulative damage models such as take damage once and then remove with second hit do make weak weapons too powerful, so how about this...

10 damage in a single attack is an automatic eliminate.
an attack that is not capable of 10 damage rolls normal attack damage and then rolls flux

bad flux is no damage evident
good flux means damaged.
Two good flux eliminate.​

this makes higher power weapons still great! but allows low power weapons to actually eliminate npc targets.

 

[Ackehece]

I agree about the continuing damage issue: It should be both bullets and cuts doing continuing damage, or neither.

Perhaps the continuing damage should be 1 point per damage die per round^* after initial damage.

* - Or perhaps 1 point per 2 damage dice (rounded down) per round
​

I like the idea.