3I Population: Studies of Ethnicity & Race?

[plop101]

Has anyone ever tried to break down by percent how many Vilani, Solomani, Droyne, Vargr, Aslan, etc. live or reside in the Imperium? I know that there has been at least one person who came up with a number for total population, at this URL: Missouri Archives: Imperial Economy

Also, IIRC, there is somewhere in CT canon that breaks down population in the Darrian Confederation, but I've never seen anything on the Imperial population.

Any thoughts? GIVE ME YOUR BRAIN.

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

If someone has that much time on their hands, then hey... But that project would be a migraine with a$$-kicker etched on its steel-toed leather boots. Not only does one need to take into account the major races (Vlani, Solomani, Aslan, Vargr, Droyne, etc.), they also would need to take into account the minor races (Answerin, Ashanti, Luriani, The Uplifted, etc.) as well as what time period (993, CT, MT, TNE) and that is just of the OTU. And the fact that everyone's TU does not exactly follow the OTU. But that is another census for another time.

I have a question and no offense to anyone, but are we that anal retentive?

 

[robject]

Yes, many of us are terribly anal-retentive.

This could be a useful bit of info regarding one's personal TU. Might be used during character creation: "hmmm, your character's race is found only on these ten worlds, and represents only 0.0001 percent of the Imperial population."

My sloppy guess would be to make assumptions on a sector per sector basis. Or even better:

IMTU, The majority are Solomani, with Vilani coming in second. I'm not sure about the proportions -- maybe 65% (plus or minus) are Solomani, and 20% Vilani. The rest consist of all other races, major and minor, human and nonhuman.

 

[plop101]

from Marquis Deadlock:

I have a question and no offense to anyone, but are we that anal retentive?

ROFL! And no offense taken.

from Robject:

My sloppy guess would be to make assumptions on a sector per sector basis.

Would probably be easier doing it sector by sector.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Off the top of my head:

49% Mixed Human
18% Vilani
17% Solomani
08% Minor Human
04% Minor non-Human
02% Vargr
01% Aslan
01% Other

 

[kaladorn]

The Vargr Extents, the Aslan Heirate, the Zhodani Consulate, the Hiver Federation, the Two Thousand Worlds... something tells me your numbers might cover the Imperium itself (thought the count of Zhodani could be hard to prove

) reasonably. But of course, the TU contains many more of the 'other races'. And what is 'Solomani' or 'Vilani' anymore after so many years of inter- marriage/breeding/settlement? Mixed is most likely what most folks are.

I'm waiting for the logical follow on question: What is the breakdown of various Faiths within the Imperium? That is probably about as divisive (well, possibly moreso even than race/cultural affiliation)...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"And what is 'Solomani' or 'Vilani' anymore"

Let's say someone with at least one parent of that race.

 

[flykiller]

are we that anal retentive?

"we"?

some people take fictional worlds, with fictional technology, undefined cultures, and undefined resources, and calculate their economic output to six significant figures. just have to call it a hobby.

 

[kaladorn]

If you didn't call it a hobby, flykiller, they'd put you in one of those nice white tuxedos that ties in the back and fast courier you off to a nice complex with rubberized walls and no sharp corners.

To Andrew's point:

I'm 15/16ths Scottish, 1/16th Irish, and 100% Canadian. But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised to find French, Russian, Welsh, and (hack) English in my genetic pedigree. And that's after a few generations (our Clan wasn't that old) here on Ye Olde Earth.

Throw in a couple more thousand and I've seen the thesis that we'll all be sort of mid-brown partly mullato-asiatic-dash of caucasian with mild epicanthic folds, brownish black hair, and brown eyes in a few hundred years... let alone a few thousand.

And we don't have piles of others to interbreed with (other Humanitis). So.... I come back to 'what is Solomani or Vilani'? If you mean someone who styles themselves of a particular origin (as I style myself as being mostly Scottish), then I guess that's okay - you'd be able to ask people what they consider themselves to be.

But that's opinion, fancy, and not genetics. Genetically, by 5600+ AD, we'll all be a big stew of mixed bag genes - it will probably be not just unlikely, but downright not feasible, to identify genetically pure solomani or vilani or any other sort of humaniti....

I guess my point is the discussion of race will be as pointless in the far future as it almost is now. I find it rather humorous that the statisticians have shown that even the average KKK member probably has some African genes in him by now (and likely vice versa). Now, cultural identification and perhaps even mild ethnocentrism may not be such a bad thing and I suspect it will persist into the far future, but the whole genetic purity thing is a crock.

So, any kind of data kept on racial breakdowns will really reflect 'cultural breakdowns' instead.

 

[flykiller]

If you didn't call it a hobby, flykiller, they'd put you in one of those nice white tuxedos that ties in the back and fast courier you off to a nice complex with rubberized walls and no sharp corners.

so long as I can have books 1-3 and some paper.

 

[RandyT0001]

Originally posted by kaladorn:

But that's opinion, fancy, and not genetics. Genetically, by 5600+ AD, we'll all be a big stew of mixed bag genes - it will probably be not just unlikely, but downright not feasible, to identify genetically pure solomani or vilani or any other sort of humaniti....

The ability to determine Solomani ancestry will be easy. Scientists have now identified the human lineages of the world descended from 10 sons of a genetic Adam and 18 daughters of Eve. This ancestral human population lived in Africa and started to split up about 150,000 years ago. This time period is when both the mitochondrial and Y chromosome trees first branch out. Since the Ancients took human stock from Terra -300,000 PI, a check of the mitochondial DNA would revel if the subject is descended from one of these women, hence Solomani. A person's mitochondial DNA is inherited from their mother. In addition a check of the Y chromosome in males will revel if they are descended from one of the sons of Adam, thereby Solomani. A male who has both traits could be considered genetically 'pure' Solomani.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by plop101:
Has anyone ever tried to break down by percent how many Vilani, Solomani, Droyne, Vargr, Aslan, etc. live or reside in the Imperium? I know that there has been at least one person who came up with a number for total population, at this URL: Missouri Archives: Imperial Economy

Also, IIRC, there is somewhere in CT canon that breaks down population in the Darrian Confederation, but I've never seen anything on the Imperial population.

Any thoughts? GIVE ME YOUR BRAIN.

It would be extremely difficult to determine this, as there is no hard data to go on.

Go ahead, and do a break down, throw yourself into it, impress us with how you come to your conclusions. And I really will be impressed, because other than outright guesswork, I can't see how this could be done accurately.

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

Originally posted by Marquis Deadlock:
I have a question and no offense to anyone, but are we that anal retentive?

You know, it is a good thing some of us are anal retentive, I mean very productive with our hobby. It has produced some very useful information and insights that most GMs and players have come to use. So hats off to all of us and may we keep a keen interest in our hobby!

 

[MadGav]

I've always felt that the population of genetic Solomani in the Third Imperium must be quite small compared with genetic Vilani. When the Solomani first encountered the Vilani, the Solomani populated only one system whereas the Vilani populated hundreds of worlds. In the subsequent Rule of Man, Vilani must have outnumbered Solomani at least a hundred to one and, by the Third Imperium, to have Solomani genes must be correspondingly rare.

I've always seen the Solomani dominance in the Rule of Man as being like the Roman or Norman invasions of Britain, i.e. a replacement of the ruling hierarchy with outsiders and a change in the culture of the general populace but no significant change in the genetic make-up of the general populace.

By the time of the Third Imperium, I would imagine that the question of whether someone considers themselves to be Solomani amounts to whether they have grown up in Solomani culture.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
The ability to determine Solomani ancestry will be easy.... a check of the mitochondial DNA would revel if the subject is descended from one of these women, hence Solomani. A person's mitochondial DNA is inherited from their mother. In addition a check of the Y chromosome in males will revel if they are descended from one of the sons of Adam, thereby Solomani. A male who has both traits could be considered genetically 'pure' Solomani.

Not exactly. Consider someone whose father's father's father's father is pure solomani, and whose mother's mother's mother's mother is pure solomani, and the rest of whose great-great-grandparents are pure vilani, for a total of 14/16 vilani, 2/16 solomani. By your test, this person is pure solomani.

 

[robject]

Good points about original Solomani population vs the Ziru Sirka -- which itself appears to have been an assimilation of minor human races, too. So I agree with the poster who says that one's assumptions about Solomani vs Vilani are probably more cultural than racial.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by MadGav:
I've always felt that the population of genetic Solomani in the Third Imperium must be quite small compared with genetic Vilani. When the Solomani first encountered the Vilani, the Solomani populated only one system whereas the Vilani populated hundreds of worlds.

1. I suspect the Solomani had a sort of 'drive to reproduce' to catch up. They're just the kind of folks that might do that. Whereas the staid Vilani might well never think of such a thing and continue to have small families.

2. Cats and Rats (Solomani and Aslan supplement) suggests that in the early days, the Solomani brought a lot of viruses that killed Vilani en masse unintentionally. This actually turned some planets from minority Solomani pop to majority Solomani. I get the impression this was a huge net loss of life across the board for the Vilani, until it was cured. This makes me think the situation you described was the case, before the plagues. After the plagues, maybe they were nearer parity. And now, as you concur, the genetic mix means it is probably more likely we've got a cultural decision more than a racial one.

 

[RandyT0001]

Anthony,
Since certain genetic material can be traced back to these 28 individuals that lived 150,000 years ago I would guess that there would be other genetic sequences specific to terran humans that could be used to check ancestry during 3I times. These traits would not exist in humans taken from Earth by the Ancients -300,000 years ago since they had not developed yet. That is my premise though my example might have been flawed.

 

[clementk]

I would think there would be very few "pure" (whatever that really means) Solomani or Vilani (or Minor Humans for that matter) left. The two cultures have been mingling since from before the First Interstellar War until whatever you view as the present in the OTU. So I lean towards the view stated in several of the books that it’s more a cultural orientation than actual genetics.

As for the DNA testing, it also would be able to ID Vilani etc. and I’d suspect you’d find most Humaniti in say the Golden Age of the 3I to have elements of both Solomani and Vilani*. Very few cultures are able to remain totally isolated, genetically or otherwise and I’d doubt this would change in the next several 1000 years.

<shrugs> So I’m indifferent to seeing something like Planet X (75% Imperial Human, 10% Solomani, 10% Vilani, 5% Minor Human) ala Greyhawk or Palladium. A mention of the general mixup/cultures on the planet is ok.

* This is the literal definition of the "Imperial Human" IIRC

 

[RainOfSteel]

The Solomani Rim (approx. 280 Imperial Worlds), despite being only a little larger than half a sector, is still the wealthiest of all the Imperial sectors, and is the second most populus, right after the Old Expanses (approx. 401 Imperial Worlds).

Most of it's population, as I understand it, anyway, is largely Solomani; despite having half the sector occupied by the Vilani first, though that is 3000 years in the past.