3 Dimensional Space

[Icosahedron]

Yep, 1 star per cubic parsec - so EVERY hex on your subsector map has a star in it.

IMTU I rationalize this by ruling that most of them are dim, unstable red or brown dwarfs with no planetary systems or habitable zone. They're just hot blobs surrounded by dust and rings with resources too dispersed to be economically viable, so nobody even bothers mapping them.

 

[Agemegos]

Yep, 1 star per cubic parsec - so EVERY hex on your subsector map has a star in it.

That is assuming that the Galactic disk is one parsec thick. In the Traveller Universe it seems to be about half a parsec thick. In reality about 300 parsecs thick.

 

[Icosahedron]

Sorry, Agemegos, I'm not following what you're saying.

If there is one starsystem in every cubic parsec of 3D space, there will be one starsystem in every square (or hexagonal) parsec of a 2D slice of that space - and if the 2D map is a compressed representation of that 3D space, there will be huge numbers of systems in each hex.

Is that what you meant?

I'm alright, Jack, MTU is 3D anyway.

 

[Laryssa]

There is a coordinate system for dealing with 3-d space, its called the Celestial Coordinate system and it has three components: Right Ascention, Declination, and Radius. The first thing you do is pick a point of reference, that is the point at zero radius. The unit of measure is of course parsecs, and from that point you determine the Celestial equator or ecliptic, divide that equator into 24 equal parts or hours of Right Ascention, further divide each Celestial Hour into 60 r/a-minutes, and divide each r/a-minute into 60 r/a-seconds, and each r/a-second is measured to the nearest tenth of a r/a-second. Once you've determined the r/a of the star you determine the Declination of the star which is in + or - degrees above or below the equator, each degree is further divided into 60 minutes, which is then divided into 60 seconds measured to the nearest whole second. It is important to remember that each Hour equal 15 angular degrees and each r/a-minute = 15 normal minutes and each r/a-second = 15 normal seconds.

The coordinates are expressed in this fashion, the Right Ascention is expressed the same way you would express time:

hh:mm:ss.s for example 00:00:00.0

Declination would be expressed as degrees of angular measure preceded by a + or -:
00deg.00'00"

and parsecs is a number followed by pc.
00.0pc.

Putting it together:

00:00:00.0 +00deg.00'00" 00.0pc

 

[Agemegos]

Sorry, Agemegos, I'm not following what you're saying.

If there is one starsystem in every cubic parsec of 3D space, there will be one starsystem in every square (or hexagonal) parsec of a 2D slice of that space - and if the 2D map is a compressed representation of that 3D space, there will be huge numbers of systems in each hex.

Is that what you meant?

Yep. At one star per cubic parsec, and hexes about a square parsec, there will be an average of one star per hex only if the map represents a slice about a parsec deep. If the map is a projection of the galactic disk onto a plane, however, you'll get n average of about 300 stars per hex.

 

[Agemegos]

There is a coordinate system for dealing with 3-d space, its called the Celestial Coordinate system and it has three components: Right Ascention, Declination, and Radius.

There are several celestial co-ordinate systems, actually. That one is properly called the "Equatorial Co-Ordinate System". Like all spherical co-ordinate systems (whether using a declination or a colatitude) it has the problems that the formulas (a) for the distance between two points and (b) for the direction to one point from another point are rather complicated. Spherical co-ordinates are all very well for observational astronomy from the reference point. Astrogators seem more likely to use Cartesian co-ordinates.

It is worth looking at Winchell Chung's web page on 3D starmaps.

 

[pendragonman]

There are several celestial co-ordinate systems, actually. That one is properly called the "Equatorial Co-Ordinate System". Like all spherical co-ordinate systems (whether using a declination or a colatitude) it has the problems that the formulas (a) for the distance between two points and (b) for the direction to one point from another point are rather complicated. Spherical co-ordinates are all very well for observational astronomy from the reference point. Astrogators seem more likely to use Cartesian co-ordinates.

It is worth looking at Winchell Chung's web page on 3D starmaps.

Sorry. Grognard mathematician. So I will stick with standard spherical coordinates. Easier to integrate that path!

 

[su_liam]

I find Starmap to be quite sufficient for everything I need

I'm a huge fan of chView2.

 

[aramis]

The math for remote items really is simpler in cartesian, Pendragonman.

Working in polar is just a pain.

 

[Agemegos]

Sorry. Grognard mathematician. So I will stick with standard spherical coordinates. Easier to integrate that path!

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're trying to say. What paths are you integrating?

 

[tim_manley]

For a while, i used a 3d spin program to map my games, but the players hated it, hated using it, begged me to get back to the flat map, because:

"I don't want to look at a hologram, when i am driving from Dayton, to Detroit, on earth or in Traveller." - Player quote

I used to use 3D mapping as well, but in Space Opera not Travaller. My players hated the hell out of it and yearned for the Traveller days. I have a player quote as well:

"I don't play games so I have to do trig."

In fact I was about to have a mutiny and have folks leave my games. So I started doing all the math myself "for them". Then I thought... 'what the hell does it matter'? And just said screw it and went back the old way. The flat map is easy, the players love it, they'll do their jump plots all on their own and the "political intrigue" fits into a mental picture a lot easier in some regards.

I used to think more realistic the better... but I'm older now and think that having a fun game is more important than knowing how many Joules of energy your powerplant can generate.....

 

[Icosahedron]

Why do you need to do trig?? o:

My 3D maps are just for show - this is what your universe looks like. Mine is a sort of layered hexmap, you can just move a number of hexes vertically as well as horizontally.

However, I must admit, I'm struggling to find any software to represent it - I currently use the old ways - I have a rack made with 'shelves' of chicken wire and a handful of marbles...

If there are any software writers out there with nothing to do...

 

[Agemegos]

I find the conversation slightly surreal. It might be more convenient for historical gaming if horses had ignition keys and didn't need feeding, or if the USA had road connections to Europe, but those things just aren't true. Similarly, it is not a matter of taste whether space is two-dimensional or three-dimensional. It is a matter of fact. Space just is three-dimensional. No matter how much we might wish it were two-dimensional or one dimensional it just isn't.

 

[atpollard]

I find the conversation slightly surreal.

Shhhh. Nobody tell him about the reactionless drives or Faster-than-light travel or alien life forms.

 

[tim_manley]

Why do you need to do trig?? o:

My 3D maps are just for show - this is what your universe looks like. Mine is a sort of layered hexmap, you can just move a number of hexes vertically as well as horizontally.

However, I must admit, I'm struggling to find any software to represent it - I currently use the old ways - I have a rack made with 'shelves' of chicken wire and a handful of marbles...

If there are any software writers out there with nothing to do...

This was in Space Opera, space maps in that game are on a sheet of paper with -LY or +Ly numbers listed for distance above or below the 0 plane. YOu measure the X, then the Y and figure out the Z.

This little act gave math freeze to my players. One of them even had a calcutator that could do it easily... thus the quote.

 

[Bishop Odo]

A little math, my first thought was that “they never played Rolemaster or Space Master.” So, they used a calculator for simple geometry, big deal.

I want to use a 3D map. Why it just adds a level of reality or realism, I know there are aliens and FTL drive and Plasma guns, but it is Science Fiction. Also, as a game master I hate to delete races, items or events from cannon, why because it just gets too complicated. By adding the extra dimension the vastness of space, the game becomes more visceral, and it’s easier to go off the map and even add races.

For me it’s just a headache to rewriting maps, when, I’d rather paint figures, write adventures and draw ship plans. Also, when is Traveller not Traveller anymore, I mean, if I use Spacemaster for combat and start adding tech, jump drive changes, when is it good enough, and maybe there is a system out there that would fulfill my requirement from the get go.

But the bottom line is, I want a 3D Traveller map, but it will be a while before I get around to creating it.

 

[Ishmael]

I use a 10x10x10 cube with a world placed in each space on 'boxcars'. That gives about the same number of worlds in my 'subsector' and a standard distribution using the standard 2d subsector map. Distances are easy enough to figure. I do use mass for figuring jump performance instead of volume and use fractional j-distances, 2.3 or 3.1, for example. Fuel use as per an old jump drive variant written by Lewis Taylor Goss ( detailed j-drive design sequence ).

 

[Agemegos]

This was in Space Opera, space maps in that game are on a sheet of paper with -LY or +Ly numbers listed for distance above or below the 0 plane. YOu measure the X, then the Y and figure out the Z.

Yeah, I can see that would be an annoyance. But it doesn't require trigonometry.

 

[Plankowner]

When I ran SO, I just used a little table that had all the distances between every world calculated and listed, a look up chart. Later, I did it using a spreadsheet. Only had to do the math once and the players could just look it up. Even easier than counting hexes.

 

[Icosahedron]

When I ran SO, I just used a little table that had all the distances between every world calculated and listed, a look up chart. Later, I did it using a spreadsheet. Only had to do the math once and the players could just look it up. Even easier than counting hexes.

That's one masochistic Referee!

Let the **ggers work it out if they want to go there - They could take turns, passing the brain cell around!