• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

2300AD What if - No German Balkanisation

mbrinkhues

SOC-14 1K
I freely admit that the Balkanisation of Germany post Twighlight War never made any sense to me. It is a nice "just like the 19th century" gag but non of the new nations can actually exist on it's own. Each lacks critical resources and/or markets.

So what if there is no Balkanisation, no "kick the Bavarians into the fold". A unified Germany that after a long period of rebuilding is finally willing and abel to take it's place as a top-flight 2nd Tier nation?

The German-French war mit stil happen, just write a "long-standing low-intensity conflict over the occupied left-Rhine territory" in the books and have that come to odds in 2291, maybe after massiv Tensions due to "pro-Manchurian Neutrality" of German forces during the CAW.
 
If you follow the Twilight War history (v1.0, not the later editions), German fragmentation is a result of World War III - Germans try and force East and West Germany into a single state while the Soviets are distracted in the Far East in a war against China.

With Germany and Poland essentially being the core European battlefields of World War III, both nations are devastated and the devastation leads to a return to a more "feudal" type existence as there's marauders roaming the countryside making central government meaningless. These feudal cantons become the new players as Europe rebuilds itself, and with histories of strongmen (and no doubt a few strongwomen) they'd be loath to give up their sovereignty. Given this particular view, that Germany is fragmented isn't that surprising. That Poland isn't similarly fragmented seems more than a bit odd to me.

The second part is that a powerful France would "blame" Germany for the massive devastation of Europe in World War III so it would encourage German regionalism to keep Germany fragmented and small (sort of like one of the old goals of the EEC - "keep Germany down"). Fracturing nations into smaller components seems to have been GDW's big idea for making the world look different from the maps of the time. Unfortunately, it led to all kinds of stupidity*.

I can see this going either way in my mind: Given centuries of division of Germany by France, perhaps the image of a "Germany" might die in the minds of the former Germans, just like the idea of a "Greater Germany" has died in the hearts of modern Austrians along with Alldeutsche Bewegung. On the other hand, there's a part of me that just feels that GDW was trying just a bit too hard to recreate a 1800s version of Europe. Certainly GDW was progressive enough to remove European colonization of the rest of the world, but certainly the concept that no country that isn't ruled by whites is of any consequence in 2300 has always seemed laughable to me.

So what if Germany is united after WW3 and France decides to keep them together (or can't stop them from uniting)?

It would certainly be more reasonable to see all of the German possessions in the stars if Germany was doing the colonizing rather than just Bavaria (even with French backing) -- the populations in these colonies have always been a bit too high for relatively small country like Bavaria to have created.

I don't think there would be a War of German Reunification for one thing. In fact, what if France and Germany might get pretty well (just like they do IRL currently)? That would certainly make the French Arm a lot less interesting. ;)

So perhaps rivals? Perhaps early allies leading to increasing rivalry would be more interesting? At first (until perhaps the early 2100s) Germany would be a grateful ally in return for French help in rebuilding and using France to rehabilitate their image (similar to France and West Germany). The countries may have matured to a more equal partnership between 2100-2250, with France helping Germany set up colonies and so on. Perhaps around 2200 there begins a sentiment, small at first, but growing with time, that France really isn't there to help Germany and that France is somehow "exploiting" Germany, using German knowledge, finance, and labor to enrich themselves while keeping Germany a thoroughly second-tier nation. France on the other hand would see Germany as ungrateful upstarts ("after all we did for you...").

Perhaps the Central Asian War** is the watershed. The French-led alliance goes into Central Asia, fights Manchuria and barely wins (or loses). However, a sizable contingent of the alliance forces is German, perhaps coming in second to the French. However, due to French bureaucratic problems, German units actually see a disproportionate amount of combat, casualties, and troops lost as prisoners to the Manchus than the French. This leads to a general sentiment in Germany that France starts the wars and plans the campaigns but expects to use Germans to fight them.

Tensions continue to rise in the French Arm, where governmental conflict and the passions of populations on Earth aren't necessarily French and German colonials, who suffer from the disruption of trade and economy between to the colonies a lot more ("we used to buy all of our grain from the French colony, but now the home government expects us to buy it from offworld? A loaf of bread costs 300% what it did last month and it's still rising!" / "What am I supposed to do with sixty tons of grain now? No trader is going to buy such a small lot and move it downarm, it would cost more to transport than he would make selling it? The German colony used to buy all my grain, now I'm not even sure how I am to make ends meet next season...")

Such governmental jockeying might be what is responsible for the spate of independence movements in the colonies - out of step with their home countries and chafing under the prejudices and tensions they don't share, and denied a real voice in their "home" country's government, many colonies might be considering doing the "Elysia thing" and declaring independence.

Then, of course, the Kafers show up...





* Rampant Stupidity (IMO): Texas splits off from the United States and becomes an independent country ... while Quebec remains part of Canada. Which one of these places (Texas, Quebec) has constant referendums for independence? Last time I checked, that was Quebec. That's probably one of my biggest "WTF" moments in post-Twilight history of 2300, up there with the Austrian Empi -- I mean "Austrvenia."

** Yes, the Central Asian War is fascinating to me because it's the only war that's mentioned where France gets a bloody nose.
 
* Rampant Stupidity (IMO): Texas splits off from the United States and becomes an independent country ... while Quebec remains part of Canada. Which one of these places (Texas, Quebec) has constant referendums for independence? Last time I checked, that was Quebec. That's probably one of my biggest "WTF" moments in post-Twilight history of 2300, up there with the Austrian Empi -- I mean "Austrvenia."

I agree this is a bit a puzzler - then I decided to come up with a 'solution' to this problem...

http://www.geocities.com/canada2300vj/postT2K.htm

All it needs to work within the timeline are a few older aircraft tucked away in safe places, and a desire to show France that they had a very extended and vulnerable line of supply to their Quebec puppet state.
 
That Poland isn't similarly fragmented seems more than a bit odd to me.

Perhaps the French did their best to bolster Poland (and Ukraine, come to think of it) in order to prevent either Germany or Russia from threatening the French Peace?

So what if Germany is united after WW3 and France decides to keep them together (or can't stop them from uniting)?

It would certainly be more reasonable to see all of the German possessions in the stars if Germany was doing the colonizing rather than just Bavaria (even with French backing) -- the populations in these colonies have always been a bit too high for relatively small country like Bavaria to have created.

Bavaria had to have recruited massive numbers of immigrants. I'd always figured Garten/Freihafen to be an American-style melting pot and Heidelsheimat being a "Bavarian" preserve. The various French Arm colonies seem to have gone different ways--the hinterlands of Beta Canum's Deutsche Kontinent being more "Bavarian" than the cities, say, and there's a substantial Azanian population on Niebelungen.

I don't think there would be a War of German Reunification for one thing. In fact, what if France and Germany might get pretty well (just like they do IRL currently)? That would certainly make the French Arm a lot less interesting. ;)

Perhaps Germany is peeved that, way back when, the French chose to call their common currency the écu. "We've gone well past bartering with cows!"

Such governmental jockeying might be what is responsible for the spate of independence movements in the colonies - out of step with their home countries and chafing under the prejudices and tensions they don't share, and denied a real voice in their "home" country's government, many colonies might be considering doing the "Elysia thing" and declaring independence.

One interesting thing with this scenario is that intercolonial cooperation takes on a higher priority. We see that to an extent with Freihafen collaborating with Niebelungen, and Wellon with Freihafen, but if French and German interests are so comingled--and only the French and Germans?--then the idea of pan-colonial nationalism looks a lot more credible. Why not a united Joi, or a united Beta Canum, or a united Tirane?

* Rampant Stupidity (IMO): Texas splits off from the United States and becomes an independent country ... while Quebec remains part of Canada. Which one of these places (Texas, Quebec) has constant referendums for independence? Last time I checked, that was Quebec. That's probably one of my biggest "WTF" moments in post-Twilight history of 2300, up there with the Austrian Empi -- I mean "Austrvenia."

I can actually buy Austrovenia, although that surely can't be the actual name of the country in German and Slovenian. There does seem to be a real community linking Austrians and Slovenians, who did share a common state. During the breakup of Yugoslavia, one Serbian nationalist accused Slovenian separatists of wanting to be [URL="http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-12,GGLD:en&q=slovenia+austrian+stableboys">"Viennese stable boys"[/URL].

As for Québec and Canada, Jon's assessment seems on the money. The idea of an independent Québec may have interested the government of post-Twilight France, but the French government was understandably not interested in expending much effort in keeping Québec independent. The Canadians, in turn, seem inclined to be reasonably practical, and Québécois separatists are generally a pragmatic bunch. (Maybe I'm overestimating the sensibility of my compatriots in a post-holocaust situation, but I hope not.)
Besides, a Canada that includes a relatively functioning Québec has a lot of things to gain from the French Peace. Vive la francophonie!
 
Back
Top