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2 km sniper rifle for Frontier campaigns

redwalker

SOC-12
This is an example of the kind of thought I get all the time, that prevents me from making a new Traveller campaign:

Start out with real-world fact: a .50 caliber sniper rifle can be manufactured very easily by an apprentice machinist. A college chemistry student could make the necessary propellant. In the U.S., range for .50 cal sniper rifles has been estimated at 2 km and they were getting popular among the shooting community until BATF made some questionable extensions of its authority.

Now, in Traveller terms, this means that one would need a machine shop, some steel, a few chemicals (which might be tightly regulated, as nitric acid is in the real-life U.S.) and a person with skills on the order of Mechanical-1, Chemistry-1. After less than a week of work, one has produced a .50 caliber rifle. Market value might be considerable, especially if local law enforcement does not shut you down immediately.

But why stop there?

Why not consider how relatively easy it might be to manufacture RPGs?

This is the point where I stop and tell myself, "But Marc Miller never imagined that players would think of creating their own arms. He would crack down on such behavior. Gunsmithing would have to be illegal, in order to preserve scarcity..."

But the major reward system in Traveller is money. So if the party has a good mix of manufacturing skills and takes some machine tools to a frontier outpost, they could conceivably start an arms factory. Depending on the campaign, this might be a starship with a sizeable factory onboard that manufactures arms and sells them in the systems that it visits.

That in itself might not wreck the whole Imperium, but it's typical of small loopholes that I don't think were foreseen -- simply because they are based on real-life politics rather than space opera. (Also, this may be an unfair criticism, but I think Miller's military background made him always think of being authorized and supplied by a state, rather than establishing a homestead.)

I've said before that if I were to update Traveller it wouldn't have a recognizable Imperium when I was done.

However, even if the material-goods scarcity is taken out by having the party be economically self-sufficient, one could still have a very different basis of adventure -- one could do frontier adventures without an Imperium. Call it "Little Pressure Dome on the Asteroid" or "Wagon-train-starship" or "Have Machine Shop, Will Travel." Basically the campaign motivation would be to portray the virtues of the American frontier before the state got fattened on income tax and socialism.

If you're fond of Ayn Rand, you could have a large buffered asteroid hull -- large enough to have a small village of capitalists. Call it "Galt's Gulch in Hyperspace." The real-world libertarians have fantasies of voluntary states where taxes are basically rent paid to the state, which is a landlord.
 
OK Red Walker,
Let's consider how easy it is to manufacture RPGs.

First you need a good design and hopefully a good designer. Next you will need to make sure that you actually have some one who will want to buy it. I mean RPGs are a dime a dozen right now in the real world think how many more there would be in the future.
Next you will need to make sure that the RPG actually makes sense. Lasers and energy or old fashion hack and slash.

Oh, yeah don't for get what type of material you need to make it out of. That could get various groups upset at you. I mean the tree huggers still protest even in to the 26th Century.

So why crack down on RPG manufacturers. I mean if they really want to waste their time and effort making a new RPG, I'd say let them.

Dave

(Role Playing Game)
 
Its not that easy to make a sniper rifle. And finding someone who can actully use one well is a damn sight harder.

See what I did there "sight". Ah tough crowd eh?

Anyway you have to get certain components perfectly aligned i'm certain this one your "mechanical 1" guy makes will jam on a regular basis.
 
And don't forget, the established arms manufacturers aren't going to sit back and let some no-good upstarts try to snatch some of their profits. Corporate sabotage, price wars, Imperial heat... Their are plenty of ways for a GM to smack down this kind of operation.
 
The general assumptions that making firearms simply requires a minimum set of skills and materials should be re-examined (imo). Here's why:

To design a firearm (not manufacture), the designer would require Knowledges in explosives (not just the Skill chemistry), weapon design (usually subdivided into different fields - much like in real life - with a certain level of overlap), and mechanical engineering (not Mech skill, since weapon stress/pressures need to be taken into account). And these are knowledges.

Next, to build, not only would Mechanical and Chemistry skills be requires, but also Craft would be required.

Licensing issues: local TLs may frown on home-grown firearms (much like in Real Life), and if a license was granted, then proper facilities would be required.

Sure an apprentice can build a gun, but he's working off of existing plans, and may not have access to the grade of steel required. Or the dies. Or a barrel forge.

Low level skills will also produce low quality firearms that may explode when the trigger is pulled. Mech-1 and Chem-1 may get you the equivalent of a prison-level zip gun.

Just my 2c
 
Yeah mechanical = grease monkey.

The gun would be a deathtrap and no self respecting marksmen would carry it into battle.

After all it "should" be simple to make a sword it's a lump of metal. Im big and strong and I understand metal working but I am no great armourer or swordsmith.
 
Sorry, but real life as usual proves ya'll wrong. AK-47's are made by the thousands in little blacksmith shops in the Middle East, especially Pakistan and Aghanistan, where gunsmiths have been making knockoffs of whatever firearm they could get their hands on for the last hundred odd years. These usually have crappy accuracy, but are otherwise indistinguishable from their mass-produced cousins. The mechanical processes of firearms are VERY well known, and have been for well over a century. Anyone with a mechanical bent can, after a little trial and error, put together a fairly accurate rifle. If he has a set of plans to follow and the right equipment, no trial and error is needed, he'll be putting out professional style weapons right away. Given the advancements in CAD/CAM systems, 20 years from now all he would have to do is load the appropriate design program into his computer, select the type of weapon he wanted, select any options, (full or semi-automatic, scope mount or iron sights, flash suppressor, etc.) load the materials into the right hoppers, and the CAM system will deliver the final product.

What a system like that cannot deliver is economies of scale like large manufacturers will have. However, if the cost of transport of finished goods is too high, you'll see these kinds of mobile manufactories running around offering their services.
 
If you want an AK, then cottage industry is fine. You get a bullet hose. What that weapon will emphatically not do is fire sub-MOA groups, and it probably won't even have the ability to throw a slug 2km at all. For precision weapons you need not only the tools to machine the parts, which I'll grant will be a standard fixture in any machine shop, you need the rather nice steels that precision barrels are made from and the forge to heat treat them right. That's a little more specialised, but not something you couldn't add as a modular, automated unit to a 'mobile gunshop'.
 
AK-47's are, imo, "sloppy" guns (i.e., extremely loose tolerances). But because they are so sloppy, they are damn reliable. Pull the trigger, and a round will fire.

Not necessarily going to hit what you were aiming at, but a round WILL fire.

A sniper rifle is typically going to be built as a "tuned" gun (i.e., tight tolerance, often custom fitted to the user). The Walther WA-2000 is a prime example of that. Tuned guns aren't typically going to to be cranked out by little shops in the Middle East.

Also, most of the "cottage industry" wrt gun manufacture will usually use an existing set of plans/patterns to build from. The classic example is the 1911A1, which has how many builders out there...? You can get these guns either cheap (i.e., crap construction), or tuned (high precision), but they're still using pretty much the same basic pattern.

Designing X and building X are often two different things - they're still related, but you can't make them synonymous.
 
The Ak47 is a weapon originally intended for hopeless Russian Conscripts and all the militaries. militias and terrorists who have adopted it have the same weakness.

Poor Training.

A Sniper Rifle is a specialist weapon for use by highly trained specialists. The Ak47 is pretty much "spray and pray".

I could easilly assemble an AK or a Sten Gun but i would only use such a weapon as backup for situations were you need to be indiscriminate.

The Ak is great because it isn't really fussed by adverse conditions. It's a pretty solid piece of kit unlike a sniper rifle but it sure as hell cannot do a sniper rifles job.

Is a Formula One car as easy to make or improve as a some barry boy's vauxhall nova? Of course not one is a (minus engine) fighter jet on wheels the other a metal box with a big exhaust.
 
No, the point wasn't that little shops in the Middle East would be making sniper rifles, though they do make other weapons than the AK, and they seem to have no problem getting good accuracy out of a home made weapon when they need it, they just don't need to take that same care when making AKs. The point was that you could make an accurate weapon in a small machine shop, something you could find on a starship. In fact, if you have a machine shop on board your ship, you will have everything you need to make a weapon with VERY tight tolerances, probably the only thing you would need in addition would be a rifling system for the barrels, that would be a specialized piece of equipment not on board most ships. Granted the materials would need to be provided, but actual manufacture could easily be done in a ships machine shop, and a weapon capable of sub MOA accuracy could be built. Most of the best shooting rifles I've seen come from small gunsmiths, not big companies.
 
What's the point of your argument? I can see that you could readily make a .50Cal rifle in any good machine shop and/or an RPG or even a howitzer. Why not just go to a high TL low Law Level world and buy one?
 
IF you have a starship chances are an M82 is a sten gun to you anyway. But i dont think someone with basic metal working skills and chemical knowledge can make a half decent rifle.
 
Any Schmoe can saw off a shotgun barrel. Successfully modifying a rifle, much less machining one from scratch, is another matter. Gunsmithy is as much art as science, evidently with all sorts of tricks to get parts to work together synergistically.

The best rifle manufacturers (eg, Winchester) find about 1 in ten thousand rifles off the assembly line is a "perfect gun" just by the chance matching of tolerances. They set them aside for their artists to inlay and engrave for sale as a premium item. I'd say they probably know what they are doing, and that would be the odds of an automated high-tech machine shop CAM product being a good sniper rifle.

On the other hand, I see no reason why a PC can't learn Gunsmithy, and at a CT skill level of 3 you'd be able to reliably construct a sniper rifle from plans.
 
Indeed but I dont think basic metal working skills gleamed from mechanical would be enough.

A few levels in a gunsmithing skill as a specific is a whole different kettle of fish though. Of course you need materials and equipment to produce the weaponry.
 
Yes Straybow you're right about gun manufacturers doing that. But the 1 in 10,000 ratio is due to the variances in mass production of weapons. Someone in a machine shop taking care of each and every part, verifying the exact measurements of each one, making sure each and every piece fit together perfectly, would make a much more accurate weapon than one which came off of an assembly line where tolerances were looser.
Yes, Gunsmithing is an important skill, but almost everything that goes into a firearm is mechanical, covered very well by any Mechanical skill a character would have. As a Referee I would make a character use Mechanical skill to repair or build a weapon, Gunsmithing skill would come in when not dealing with the simple mechanical aspects of the weapon, like ergonomics, sights, any artistic embellishments etc.
 
We are talking about AKs here. They are made out of poor quality metal, have no real accuracy, they have loose fitting parts. (By the way all of these "drawbacks" with the AK are INTENTIONAL!) They are prone to rust but otherwise can be manufactured with low skill levels, poor quality smithing and forging abilities and can be turned out by any Mom and Pop operation that feels like it. The AK is by no means a Sniper Rifle. By doctrine it isn't even designed to hit a man sized target at any range. The preferred setting when using an AK is Full Auto. It is designed to be used enmasse on full auto tp suppress enemy infantry so your armor can get through and if you accidentally hit someone all the better. The Barrett Light 50 on the other hand is designed to be used by an expert and hit a man sized target with one bullet with an effective range well over 2000 meters. (Actually I have heard 3000M quoted.) It will also penetrate light cover with no deflection and medium to heavy cover. (If you want to know what I am talking about, walk out on any street in any town, (Well any town without tanks in the street) look around you. Nothing will stop a .50 round. the pressures and recoil of a .50 round require special consideration. The accuracy likewise requires special consideration. I once saw a design for a fletchette round, it fired a sewing needle sized round from a necked down .50 cartridge. the design looked brilliant, the physics looked incredible until you realized that there is no metal you could manufacture the cartridge out of that would withstand the pressure. The chamber pressure was likewise astromonical. But I have seen the plans, anyone want to build it and test fire it for us.


Now back to the AK, virtually anyone can manufacture one, the SVD looks similar, it is made out of the same crap metal, uses a higher velocity and powered round (the extraction mechinism is definitely different) but a true SVD is made to a different set of tolerances. It is designed to actually hit a man sized target out to about 800m. (Three are doctrinally handed out to the three best marksmen in each Motorized rifle Platoon.) It may look like the same shoddy manufacture the same stamped metal but it fires a whole lot differently. The AK on the range on semi (until you have fired a few magazines through it and the carbon build up tightens the tolerences) is not very useful at more than 100 meters. (The sights aren't even set up for accurate shooting.) The SVD, on the other hand gave me quarter sized groups at 400M. (And it wasn't new by any stretch of the imagination.) True anyone can manufacture an AK type weapon but the sniper weapons, like the snipers themselves are a breed apart. (And no I was never a sniper, I was Intel which is how I got to fire the Soviet weapons so I knew what I was talking about.)

As for manufacturing RPGs, well sure they aren't complicated. They are so simple they can definitely cause problems though. For example has anyone seen Rambo? If you fire that law through the front window of a helicopter, the window will probably deflect the rocket and the backblast, if it didn't set the helicopter on fire and destroy it outright it would definitely kill everyone in the helicopter. They had a problem on Ft. Riley one year test firing RPG-7 (The Soviet "Hand held Anti-tank Grenade Launcher") some how an RPG2 round got mixed in with the RPG7 ammo. The RPG-7 has a cartridge that blows the round out of the tube then after it travels a safe distance the rocket ignites, (Most of the later Light Anti-tank weapons work on this principle.) the RPG2 on the otherhand ignites the rocket in the tube. There is no blast shield on an RPG-7 but the firing mechanism is unchanged with predictable results.

So go ahead and build your simple anti armor weapon. (Which is no longer able to penetrate most armored vehicles especially not tanks anyway.) So go ahead frie your LAW/RPG from inside a building, or other enclosed space. You can manufacture a few but you probably won't have too many repeat customers.


Originally posted by jwdh71:
Sorry, but real life as usual proves ya'll wrong. AK-47's are made by the thousands in little blacksmith shops in the Middle East, especially Pakistan and Aghanistan, where gunsmiths have been making knockoffs of whatever firearm they could get their hands on for the last hundred odd years. These usually have crappy accuracy, but are otherwise indistinguishable from their mass-produced cousins. The mechanical processes of firearms are VERY well known, and have been for well over a century. Anyone with a mechanical bent can, after a little trial and error, put together a fairly accurate rifle. If he has a set of plans to follow and the right equipment, no trial and error is needed, he'll be putting out professional style weapons right away. Given the advancements in CAD/CAM systems, 20 years from now all he would have to do is load the appropriate design program into his computer, select the type of weapon he wanted, select any options, (full or semi-automatic, scope mount or iron sights, flash suppressor, etc.) load the materials into the right hoppers, and the CAM system will deliver the final product.

What a system like that cannot deliver is economies of scale like large manufacturers will have. However, if the cost of transport of finished goods is too high, you'll see these kinds of mobile manufactories running around offering their services.
 
Seeing some letters here.

An AK-47 was made by the Russians. All plans have been confiscated, by both Russian and American Governments. And it is impossible to make one with out them as they require several materials which Pakistan and Afganistan do not have access to.

to build a .50 Caliber weapon it will take a day to make a bacth of 20 Barrels( this includes transportations of materials from a cooling facility which must be atleat 2 kiles away).
4 days to cool to be safe to work on.

(the example will follow a batch of 20)

For the Cocks 4 hours make 30 minutes Transport, 2 days cooling.

weapon Case;
Machine gun, 2 Days making, 7 Days cooling
Rifle Case(includes main Rifle Uses), 1.5 Days on average, 4 days cooling.

Other parts includeing Recoils safty Catches Trigger, Trigger Gaurd, Pin , Trigger Mechinisim, handle, Butt Gaurd if needed, Trigger Handle, Case pins.
Will take 1 day all together 5 days cooling.

when all thes a made they then need transportation to the Plant from the Cooling centre.
If made by hand it will take 4 weeks to attach every ting keep working parts moving Due to this atleast 2 on average will not work fully or not at all so reducing output.
If made by Computer Technology it takes 2 weeks.
Even thought it is made by the computer, human error can change it to better or worse. So by changing the computer input you can improve parts of the weapon. But if one goes wrong all following ones go wrong untill notice.
This is why each M16 Batch was slighty different in its performance. As the batches where made
in Different years and the US want to push the weapons Limits.

To make a High Perfomance .50 Caliber Rifle of any kind will need T/Mechanical 10, C/gunsmithing 16 and Strangly another two T/Engineering 16, and T/energy (specifcally Kinetics)16.

This shows the hardness to make by a thought educated person in making them but it is still very hard to make them even with those Skills.

to design it would take about a month needing.
T/energy 10, T/engineering 10, C/Gunsmithing 10,
K/Weaponry Kinetical Stress 17, and K/weaponry Standard support 20( is every thing in the right position so it does not spring out or fall even carring it

There for only highly Educated people in these Fields could make by hand. thats why many weapons today are made my Computers as they can store all contributing persons speciallitys.

nat
 
as a note on weapons manafacture their was a out of work mecheinst down in sidney back in the early 90's who said to a freind wile at the pub that he found an article in an indristry magisine on how to make a pistol in your aravge (for a person in the trade)home workshop and since he had nothing to live for that he was planing on "turning" himself a gun and blowing his brains out some local guy with "contacts" said why not make'm and sell them and that he could find buyers easy, so this out of work fitter & turner ends up spending over a year making guns for the streats untill orders got so mutch that quality controll sliped and he made a cupple of dozzen bad guns lucky for him the cops got to him before the bikies did, the story even got stolen for an epesode of a local cop show.
 
Thats why Guns nowadays is made by a computer, not by hand as it does get hard when 40 people want one from you in 2 weeks when only 5 is ,made in 4 weeks.
 
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