100-dTon TL 12 Prison Transport

[Black Vulmea]

Missing the big picture here.

They may be unacceptable to a society that you're comfortable with, but, apparently, demonstrably, the TU is OK with it.

That's the point.

Satori.

The Third Imperium allows corporations to hire mercenaries to wage war on one another - provided they stay away from weapons of mass destruction - and dead workers are considered acceptable collateral damage: "Employees of either company are considered soldiers in the war and are fair game" (TTA, pp. 108-9).

The Imperium cuts off worlds from space travel as retribution: "The Navy is held to be more vindictive in its recommendations, using interdiction to punish local governments or to hide its own mistakes." (S8, p. 34).

The Imperium disappears dissidents: "She has only recently learned that he is held prisoner by the lmperium itself in an orbital prison hulk at Pixie (0303). The subsector government has suppressed this information, but it has treacherously offered a reward of Cr1,000,000 for the senator's location in order to conceal its involvement in his disappearance" (A1, p. 5).

And don't even get me started on the heinousness in Agent of the Imperium.

 

[spank]

The death rate is, but Dumarest often makes a point of the Traveller's Physical condition effecting survival

"If I don’t get away soon I won’t be able to get away at all. Even now I’d be taking more than a normal risk.’ He was optimistic. Beneath the dirt Megan was gaunt, his clothes hanging from a skeletal frame. For him to travel Low in his condition was suicide."

and Dumarest makes a point of Low Travel's effect on the people who do it.

"He turned to examine the group of those who had travelled Low. They were thin, pale, barely recovered from resurrection. Some would have little money, enough perhaps to tide them over until they could find employment. Some lacked even that. All were strangers. ‘All right,’ he said to the girl. ‘We can go now.’"

Somewhere there was a description of a sadistic crewman poorly preparing people for Low Berth, and the effect it had.

The death rate of the low berth is a direct rip off from the Dumarest universe. In that universe it was explained that the low berths were intended for livestock transport and were not rated for human use hence the risk of death.

 

[Condottiere]

Outside of rolled for physical characteristics, Athletics probably helps.

 

[kilemall]

The death rate is, but Dumarest often makes a point of the Traveller's Physical condition effecting survival

"If I don’t get away soon I won’t be able to get away at all. Even now I’d be taking more than a normal risk.’ He was optimistic. Beneath the dirt Megan was gaunt, his clothes hanging from a skeletal frame. For him to travel Low in his condition was suicide."

and Dumarest makes a point of Low Travel's effect on the people who do it.

"He turned to examine the group of those who had travelled Low. They were thin, pale, barely recovered from resurrection. Some would have little money, enough perhaps to tide them over until they could find employment. Some lacked even that. All were strangers. ‘All right,’ he said to the girl. ‘We can go now.’"

Somewhere there was a description of a sadistic crewman poorly preparing people for Low Berth, and the effect it had.

I wasn’t aware of the Dumarest quotes but that’s built into my version.

 

[spank]

I always figured there should be modifiers for,

• health (general)
• wounds
• pre-sleep prep
• monitoring
• TL

And the outcome would vary from no issues to minor wounding to death

I wasn’t aware of the Dumarest quotes but that’s built into my version.

 

[Rupert]

So you'll accept the explicit exception, while rejecting the implicit "default" that underlies everything outside of that explicit exception.
Am I understanding both the text and the subtext of what you are writing here correctly?

There is no implicit default. The bonuses for skill given as examples are all over the place.

Let me make sure that I'm understanding your perspective here.

Medical skill, beyond "level 2" (which isn't "doctor level" but more like "nurse level" skill) is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the survival rate of a COMMONLY USED technology that RANDOMLY KILLS PEOPLE when used ... and any Referee who tries to make Medical skill relevant to the survival rates of that "task" ... is doing it wrong according to your interpretation of RAW, because that's a YTU interpretation.

No 'doing it wrong'. 'Doing it according to a house rule'. That's not 'wrong', but it's also not the Rules As Written.

Are you SURE that's the hill low berth you want to die on in, as a matter of principle?
I mean, on the scale of a major interstellar polity such as the Third Imperium (or equivalent) ... that would mean that MILLIONS of people would be dying EACH YEAR using an inherently unsafe technology that cannot be "perfected" to the point of reliable survival (absent complicating factors) when attended by trained medical personnel.

That is indeed what the CT rules say. It's even acknowledged in-universe with things like the Low Lottery.

Nobody is saying that if you don't like this, you shouldn't change it for your TU. I don't think anyone is even saying it's particularly sensible for the OTU to work like this, just that this is how it works in the CT canon.

 

[Rupert]

CT before the UTP makes skills highly variable in their benefits, as we already discussed multiple times in this thread; you seem to be assuming that the rules are incomplete when it comes to low berth survival because they don't produce the results you think they "should," when in fact at least two editions make it an explicit setting conceit that they're dangerous as - in fact they're arguably MORE dangerous in MT than in CT, where Medic-4 and Edu A only get you to the same 5+ that CT begins with.

As long as you take extra time in MT they are fairly safe, and even mishaps in MT 'just' do damage, and they're highly unlikely to kill unless you have poor physical stats. So things going wrong is more common, actually dying, less.

 

[Rupert]

Somewhere there was a description of a sadistic crewman poorly preparing people for Low Berth, and the effect it had.

And of not giving them proper treatment when they came out, so they felt the agonizing thawing process without painkillers.

OTOH, sometimes the stewards would make a traveller early, for company, and they'd get a chance to eat decently and recover properly before landing.

 

[Rupert]

I wasn’t aware of the Dumarest quotes but that’s built into my version.

FWIW, those novels are also where 'fast' and 'slow' drugs come from, though slow drugs work a bit differently - you retain conciousness, but just perceive time much more slowly, and high passage is when you take them to make a trip seem faster (and is the norm for paying passengers).

 

[kilemall]

FWIW, those novels are also where 'fast' and 'slow' drugs come from, though slow drugs work a bit differently - you retain conciousness, but just perceive time much more slowly, and high passage is when you take them to make a trip seem faster (and is the norm for paying passengers).

Ya I knew Dumarest as the source for a lot of this, just never read it.

 

[spank]

And of not giving them proper treatment when they came out, so they felt the agonizing thawing process without painkillers.

OTOH, sometimes the stewards would make a traveller early, for company, and they'd get a chance to eat decently and recover properly before landing.

Yeah, that's right. I was trying to recall the specifics. Kind of hard when they are spread over so many books.

But old regardless, if it was a flat percentage that died every trip with not root cause, Dumarest should have been dead early on. So physical fitness and other factors must have played a role.

 

[Rupert]

Yeah, that's right. I was trying to recall the specifics. Kind of hard when they are spread over so many books.

But old regardless, if it was a flat percentage that died every trip with not root cause, Dumarest should have been dead early on. So physical fitness and other factors must have played a role.

He was also lucky (i.e. had plot armour), and later on he used low passage very seldom.

 

[Spinward Flow]

That is indeed what the CT rules say. It's even acknowledged in-universe with things like the Low Lottery.

The Low Lottery ... with "winning numbers" that include deaths ... ought to be a byproduct of inadequate Medical-1 (or 2) skill expertise care. This means that the operator is "credit shaving" on crew salaries (the medical staff, specifically) in order to pad their profit margin each month ... something that bean counters and "middle managers" are known to practice on the daily if it means Profits Over People™.

Conversely, with sufficiently resourced Medical-3+ skill expertise care ... the "winning numbers" for the Low Lottery ought to be "zero" every time, except when there are complicating factors (basically, -DMs in play). The operator of the craft has to "pay more" in crew salary for that higher skill level medical staff, but fewer passengers DIE in transit, raising the reputation of the transport craft as delivering "reliable/reputable" low berth transport services (that more people than is typical survive using).

The difference between these two options, functionally amounts to a "social standing" rating for the craft and operations crew ... which, needless to say, there are no (RAW specific) "rules" for ... but which could add color and flavor to an ongoing campaign of merchant Travellers (for whom reputation is an important, if intangible, commodity!).



Such an interpretation does not PRECLUDE (or prevent) low berths from being "used in an inherently unsafe manner" by those parties of dubious scruples (and insufficient but still "qualified" skill levels) ... but it does mean that parties of "higher than minimum standards" can reap the reputational benefit of being "a cut above" their competitors who deliver better/safer passenger services and experiences (with less frequent casualties from low berth passages).

Arranging things that way means that there is Emergence in behavior patterns that result from those converging factors, which will have consequences (some doors open while others close) concerning how the TU inter(re)acts with various crews who operate along differing levels of principle, ethics and responsibility.

The "trading game" is one that's easy to learn, but hard to master.
Figuring out that reaching for better levels of Medical skill/expertise in order to minimize low berth casualties and improve overall crew wellness/morale isn't something that the RAW will explicitly "tell you" is true ... but it ought to be something that Players (and Referees) can figure out on their own, if they pay attention and think through the matrix of potentials resulting from choices diligently enough.



It's kind of like how woodworking shop tools CAN be operated safely by skilled craftsman who use best practices ... but those same tools can be operated completely NON-SAFELY by unskilled people who take dangerous shortcuts (that can result in permanent injuries).

There's a reason why "bucket films" of industrial accidents caused by unsafe practices exist ... as a warning to others to not make the same mistakes ... and yet those kinds of accidents and injuries keep happening to the inadequately skilled. It's not the fault of the tools that the operators lack the adequate skills/behaviors/safeguards to prevent injury ... it's the carelessness/lack of skill on the part of the operators that is the source of the hazards.

I figure that the same type of thing ought to be true for low berth technology when used for passenger transport.
Inadequate skill/expertise on the part of the medical staff CAN result in injuries (up to and including DEATH) when people are resuscitated ... but not every crew is going to include/pay for medical staff with a high enough level of skill/expertise to minimize those casualty rates.

At that point, "allowing low berth passengers to DIE when transported" simply becomes another calculation in the profit/loss computation. After all, passengers pay up front for passage ... so if they die in transit, the amoral merchant has already got the (low) passenger's money ... who cares if they don't survive the trip? It's not like the merchant is being half up front/half upon survival to the destination ... right?

Needless to say, this kind of "low death profiteering" can lead to some very DARK PLACES when moral fiber is thin (to non-existent) and Money Is All That Matters™ to the (death) merchant class.

Just because things CAN BE THAT WAY ... doesn't ipso facto mean that things HAVE TO BE THAT WAY.
Allowing things to be that way is a CHOICE ... not a REQUIREMENT.
For some, it's a Choice that they'll make eagerly/willingly (because: money! ) ... while for others, it's a Choice that is best avoided ... even though the temptation to Make That Choice will always be present, waiting for an opportunity ...

And yes, I'm talking about Moral Character and Ethics here ... something that you won't find spelled out in RAW, but something that Players (and Referees) shouldn't "toss out the airlock" just because it isn't enumerated in RAW as something that you Have To Do (or there will be consequences). Some things ... don't need rules ... in order to be self-evident, once presented and laid before the assembled.

 

[Vargr Breath]

Another DM +/-, how well the ship has been taken care of.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Another DM +/-, how well the ship has been taken care of.

Often times, most easily represented by annual overhaul maintenance cycles ... but can also include other factors and contextual circumstances at the Referee's discretion, just to keep things interesting (and prevent Players from becoming too complacent).

It's perfectly fine to establish a "baseline" of possibility expectations, where low berth deaths "shouldn't" happen under nominal circumstances (roll 1+ on 2d6 to survive unharmed is the standard) ... while the Referee also reminds Players that there is the potential for "off nominal" edge cases where penalty DMs may need to be assessed (for reasons various and sundry, won't get getting into them just now).

It's basically the same mentality as calculating misjump probabilities.
If you're using refined fuel and you've kept up with your annual overhaul maintenance cycles ... you should have to roll 13+ on 2d6 in order to misjump (a statistical impossibility). But as soon as one of those factors falls out of alignment (using unrefined fuel, overdue annual overhaul maintenance, jumping inside a 100D jump shadow, etc.) the threshold to misjump starts dropping from the "impossible" range into the "rare but possible" range of being within the range of a 2d6 roll result.

Applying the same "trajectory of thinking" to survival rates with low berths is, in my opinion anyway ... fair game.

And to bring the analogy even further into focus ... think of wilderness refueling as a source of unrefined fuel being a potential hazard for misjumps the same way as hiring a Medical-1 or 2 skilled crewman for a passenger ship with low berths.

• CAN it be done?
  • Sure! You're just going to be running the risk of misjumps/low berth deaths every time you jump.
• Are there ways to mitigate those risks?
  • Sure! You just sacrifice tonnage to a fuel purification plant/hire someone with Medical-3+ skill to "minimize or eliminate" the risks associated with unrefined fuel/low berth mortality rates every time you jump.

You have to go "above and beyond" the BARE MINIMUM required in order to achieve those outcomes ... so not everyone is going to want to "pay the price" to do so ... but the option(s) are there. The CHOICE of which path to take (cheap/risky vs expensive/safer) is a tradeoff. If you want "security" ... you have to pay for it ... and not everyone is willing (or cares enough) to pay the price for that security.

 

[Vargr Breath]

So not a good idea to take low passage on the Starship "Vital Spark".

 

[Rupert]

Note that Medic-3 is a full-on Doctor. Medic-1 is all that's required to be a medic on a starship. The Medic-2 that gives the DM on low passage revival is already for a more skilled than normal crewmember, and halves the death rate.

So there's already an incentive to hire a more skilled medic (and the extra cost is actually minimal - availability is the major limitation, not cost).

 

[Vargr Breath]

Note that Medic-3 is a full-on Doctor. Medic-1 is all that's required to be a medic on a starship. The Medic-2 that gives the DM on low passage revival is already for a more skilled than normal crewmember, and halves the death rate.

So there's already an incentive to hire a more skilled medic (and the extra cost is actually minimal - availability is the major limitation, not cost).

So, MED-1 is like a U.S. Navy Hospital Corpsman, MED-2 a Nurse Practitioner, MED-3 a MD internist, MED-4+ MD-Specialist/Surgeon ?

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