Wilds Government Codes

[LeperColony]

What are the essential characteristics that you would say distinguish the following Wilds government types from each other?

Feudal Technocracy

Technologically Elevated Dictator

Totalitarian Oligarchy (when power is maintained through exclusive access to technology)

In my mind, they are all pretty close together. Especially when you take into consideration the errata that tells you to roll 2D6 on the TED table, and both Feudal Technocracy and Totalitarian Oligarchy on it. What distinguishes a TED who is a Totalitarian Oligarch from a Totalitarian Oligarch who maintains his power with technology?

Either the whole TED concept is flawed (or redundant, which is a flaw), or else it implies a specific set of conditions for the order of government that we should be able to identify as different from a Totalitarian Oligarchy or a Feudal Technocracy.

 

[Jeffr0]

1248 Sourcebook 2 uses these additional government codes:

Q Interim government
M military Dictatorship or Junta
N Noble house
T technologically elevated Dictator
S Slave World
V viral hell

It appears that The Powers That Be eliminated the Wilds type and replaced them with standard gov codes.

See the errata here:

http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/pdfs/ConsolidatedTNEErrata.pdf

 

[DonM]

The problem was that TNE added the TED codes without changing any of the other rules that use the government codes (Trade, for example).

And certainly some of the TED codes fit other government codes.


Ultimately, every Referee has to make a decision for their own campaign as to what to use.

 

[LeperColony]

Looking at the errata, I don't see that they eliminated Wilds government codes. They just added a separate table to roll on if you get a TED, telling you what kind of TED it is.

But still, since TED is a discreet entry, we should be able to identify elements of TEDism that makes them specifically unique from other government codes that appear very similar.

 

[rancke]

But still, since TED is a discreet entry, we should be able to identify elements of TEDism that makes them specifically unique from other government codes that appear very similar.

That part is easy. A TED's power rests on relic technology. If it didn't, he wouldn't be technologically elevated. Any other government whose power rests on relics is likewise Technologically Elevated, wheter it's a democracy, an oligarchy, a bureaucracy, or whatever.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

Yes, but then what is the difference between a TED (gov code 6) who is a Totalitarian Oligarch (result 7-8 on TED table of the errata) and a Totalitarian Oligarchy that maintains its power through technology (gov code 8, "...often by use of Pre-Collapse technology" TNE page 191).

My point is that there must be something distinct about TEDs that distinguishes them from other systems that maintain their power through the use of technology.

 

[Antony]

In the RC setting, TEDs were TEDs because the Reformation Coalition said they were. What governments they actually had was not really relevant since the RC wanted their resources. Star Vikings indeed.

As for everywhere else, up to the GM, in any case most players would not know the government codes of worlds they are visiting for the first time unless someone else told them and then again how were they derived?

 

[LeperColony]

I guess the reason why that answer doesn't satisfy me, even though it is by far the easiest solution, is because it fails to identify peculiar characteristics unique to the Gov Code 6 in a way that I feel other codes have.

IMTU, I think it will be the case that TEDs represent government structures that are in power due to exclusive access to high technology and who are, or originally were (and remain descendent from) not members of the indigenous world population.

So that mercenary band who crash landed, or the soldiers from the local Imperial Army base or what have you, they decide to use their high tech and bump off the old power structure. That way you have a Technologically Elevated government, which can still show the variance contemplated by the TNE errata with the different TED gov types.

 

[Starviking]

In my mind, they are all pretty close together. Especially when you take into consideration the errata that tells you to roll 2D6 on the TED table, and both Feudal Technocracy and Totalitarian Oligarchy on it. What distinguishes a TED who is a Totalitarian Oligarch from a Totalitarian Oligarch who maintains his power with technology?

The Errata is from the Traveller Mailing List, and pre-dates the release of the Mark 1, Mod 1 Version of TNE in December 1993. That version of TNE corrected the problems with the Wilds Governments by adding the "Wi" allegance code.

 

[LeperColony]

Maybe I don't understand the implications fully, but why would that fix things, or provide TED with a clear distinction from other technology based governments?

I thought it just meant that the planet was populated, in the wilds, and not aligned with any organization.

 

[FreeTrav]

My take on it:

Technology-Elevated Dictator: A single individual exercising power, which power derives from control of technology superior to that otherwise available. The level of control imposed on the subjects of the TED is not specified.

Totalitarian Oligarchy: A small group of people exercising power, regardless of means or source. The totalitarianism comes from the fact of attempting to exercise control over otherwise-trivial aspects of the lives of the subjects. A Totalitarian Oligarchy's power may arise from control of technology superior to that which is otherwise available.

Feudal Technocracy: Power arises from the control of technology superior to that which is otherwise available. The control of technology is fragmented, and overall power is cemented by reciprocal agreements between the individuals or groups that control specific technologies that others rely on. The level of control over subject is not specified.

 

[LeperColony]

That makes sense, but then what distinguishes a TED who is a Totalitarian Oligarchy or Feudal Technocracy (results on the TED chart from the errata) from a government that is a Totalitarian Oligarchy or Feudal Technocracy that maintains its power from relic technology?

 

[FreeTrav]

No, you're missing it - they're three different governmental structures. Ignoring the technology aspect:

TED=Dictator - a single individual exercising power

Totalitarian Oligarchy=Oligarchy - a small group of people exercising power

Feudal Technocracy=Feudalism - the governing class is multiplex, with interlocking and reciprocal relationships between governing entities

The difference between a TED and a TED(relic) would be that the TED(non-relic) can maintain the technology that he has, and possibly produce more; the TED(relic) relies entirely and strictly on what has been found - and when it's gone, he's likely to lose power. Similarly with the other forms.

 

[LeperColony]

Except a TED doesn't have to be a single individual. From the errata, if you get a Gov Code 6 in the errata, you roll to see what kind of TED it is. On that table are many governments that exceed single person rule.

Also, while I agree that not all Totalitarian Oligarchies, or even possibly most, rely on technology to retain their hold, the government code chart specifically states that many do. Thus, my question is what separates a Totalitarian Oligarchy that uses technology to maintain their position from a TED who rolls Totalitarian Oligarchy on the TED chart.

Thus far, really only my previous suggestion that TED's represent a non-indigenous authority has been the only clear distinction. It also makes sense, as non-Wilds gov code 6 is captive/colony, so there's some similarity there.

 

[rancke]

No, you're missing it - they're three different governmental structures. Ignoring the technology aspect:

TED=Dictator - a single individual exercising power

You can't ignore the technology aspect. The 't' and the 'e' in 'TED' stands for 'technologically elevated'.

Totalitarian Oligarchy=Oligarchy - a small group of people exercising power.

That's just an oligarchy. 'Totalitarian' refer to how much control the state exercise over the lives of its subjects.

Feudal Technocracy=Feudalism - the governing class is multiplex, with interlocking and reciprocal relationships between governing entities

The difference between a TED and a TED(relic) would be that the TED(non-relic) can maintain the technology that he has, and possibly produce more; the TED(relic) relies entirely and strictly on what has been found - and when it's gone, he's likely to lose power. Similarly with the other forms.

There is no such thing as a non-relic TED. A dictator that doesn't rely on relic technology is just a dictator, charismatic or non-charismatic as the case might be. He can't be technologically elevated without technology to elevate him.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Also, while I agree that not all Totalitarian Oligarchies, or even possibly most, rely on technology to retain their hold, the government code chart specifically states that many do. Thus, my question is what separates a Totalitarian Oligarchy that uses technology to maintain their position from a TED who rolls Totalitarian Oligarchy on the TED chart.

An oligarchy that relies on replaceable technology is just an oligarchy. It's technologically elevated if it relies on relics.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

Hans, I definitely agree, but if you look at the Wilds government codes, it specifically states that many Totalitarian Oligarchies are in place due to pre-Collapse technology.

Hence the question. What is the difference between a relic based Totalitarian Oligarchy and a TED that is a Totalitarian Oligarchy?

 

[rancke]

Hans, I definitely agree, but if you look at the Wilds government codes, it specifically states that many Totalitarian Oligarchies are in place due to pre-Collapse technology.

Hence the question. What is the difference between a relic based Totalitarian Oligarchy and a TED that is a Totalitarian Oligarchy?

There isn't one. It's an irreconcilable inconsistency between definitions, a misapplication of the concept of being technologically elevated to the term 'Totalitarian Oligarchy', or a pleonasm. Take your pick.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

See, that's an answer I can understand, but not one I accept. To me, each government code should have some identifiable, discreet and unique characteristic that separates it from the others.

That's why for me, TEDs are governments that are, or are descendent of, non-indingenous. Your stranded mercenary band or left over Imperial troopers who remove, subsume, or replace the original government structure, and who did so by virtue of relic technology.

 

[rancke]

See, that's an answer I can understand, but not one I accept. To me, each government code should have some identifiable, discreet and unique characteristic that separates it from the others.

That's why for me, TEDs are governments that are, or are descendent of, non-indingenous. Your stranded mercenary band or left over Imperial troopers who remove, subsume, or replace the original government structure, and who did so by virtue of relic technology.

That's what a friend of mine once told me was known as an engineer's solution. If you can't solve the problem you've got, change it to a problem you can solve and do so. You're introducing a completely new element here, the origin of the people in charge.

If it works for you, go ahead and use it. Personally I don't like a definition that will make two different governments that are otherwise pretty much alike into one government type or another depending on who the rulers' grandparents were.

The difficulty seems to me to arise from the comment that a Totalitarian Oligarchy often rests on relic technology. I think that makes no sense at all. Or rather, either all (type 8) totalitarian governments are Type 8 totalitarian governments whether they're relic based or not, or an ordinary Totalitarian Oligarchy (type 8) isn't based on relic tech and a Totalitarian Oligarchy that is based on relic tech is a technologically elevated one (Type 6/8).

Incidentally, looking over the table on p. 191 (but without access to the errata) it looks to me like the author had great difficulty coming up with all the different types he needed. The difference between type 7 and type 9 is as slim as it could possibly be and the difference between type 8 and type 11 isn't much better. And type 1, Tribal, has been separate out from the old type 0 code.


Hans