Virtue-Class Family of Vehicles

[Major B]

This thread is for discussion on the TL12 Family of Vehicles I'm developing for MTU and anyone else who would like to use them.

The design and profile sheets for the vehicles will be posted in the file library here as they are completed.

Along with the vehicles, I'll post some additional comments both in the file library and in this thread. Along with the designs, I'm working on porting some elements from Striker into MT and I hope that the discussion here will allow me to develop those ideas into errata entries for Don.

 

[Major B]

Fire Control (Direct, Indirect, Point Defense)

One element from Striker that did not make it into MT was fire control.

Actually, point defense fire control did make it into the design tables but without any rules governing the use of point defense in the combat rules. This has been fixed due to the efforts of jec10, but direct and indirect fire control is still an omission.

The fire control systems in Striker can be ported into the design tables easily, but the Striker systems do not draw any power and there is no implementation rule that limits engagement ranges (or a rule governing use of a fire direction center for indirect engagements).

Would anyone care to take a stab at a draft rule addendum for implementing direct and indirect fire control? (I'll bring up the FDC later)

 

[Gray Lensman]

looks nice

While laying around the hospital for the last six months (got out yesterday), I was fooling around with a 500 man light infantry battalion and I stopped when I got to wondering how to convert it to mech, hmmmmmm........:rofl:

Great work as usual sir!

SGT Dan

 

[Major B]

Updates posted in the file library

Thanks very much Dan.

I've posted updated versions of the Stalwart design (v 1.4) and the first cut on the M1741 Redoubtable ALV (Armored Logistics Vehicle) in the library.

I'll be posting more updated to this thread soon. I'm trying to figure out the fire control question posted above (since there were no takers for posting a straw man) and after that I want to hit the missile rules.

 

[Major B]

Direct Fire Control

The concept from Striker that I think should be incorporated into MT is this:

Direct fire weapon systems have an effective range that is determined by physics in that velocity is reduced by friction over time, so armor piercing rounds are less effective at longer ranges. HEAP rounds will not suffer degradation of their penetrating power at long range, but will be more likely to miss as atmospherics have more time and space to affect the round's trajectory. Lasers will be degraded over distance as the intentity of the beam is diffused by the atmosphere. The MT design tables account for this, but they do not account for fire control.

Fire control allows the gunner to identify and engage a target. The physics involved should be used only to determine the system's maximum effective range and it's ability to penetrate at a given range. Fire control should be the primary factor used in determining the difficulty of successfully hitting a target at any given range. A laser may be able to penetrate at several miles, but can the gunner see the target at that range, line up the weapon, and fire (especially if the target is moving)?

Striker had rules for fire control, but I'm not bound to the specifics presented there. What I'd like to discuss here first are rules to implement direct fire control into MT - perhaps but not necessarily derived from Striker.

One reason why I'm not wedded to the Striker rules is that the fire control systems presented there do not have a power requirement. Though I'm not a tanker, I've seen what a TL7 TTS (Tank Thermal Sight) and the thermal sights for a TOW missile system can reveal, and I know they need a power supply, so I think a re-examination of Striker is necessary before those rules are ported directly into MT.

So, again - any takers for this discussion?

 

[Major B]

Direct Fire Control Table - Strawman

[/FONT]
[B][FONT=Calibri]                                                  Direct Fire Control Table[/FONT][/B]
[B][FONT=Calibri]                                                                                 Maximum[/FONT][/B]
[B][FONT=Calibri][U]      TL      [COLOR=#0070c0]Power[/COLOR]     Volume    Weight       [/U][U][COLOR=#0070c0]Engagement Range[/COLOR][/U][U]                 Price[/U][/FONT][/B]
[FONT=Calibri]       5            [COLOR=#0070c0]-[/COLOR]            0.005        0.005                     [COLOR=#0070c0]Distant ([/COLOR]2.5[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]                   500[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]       6            [COLOR=#0070c0]-[/COLOR]            0.010        0.010                     [COLOR=#0070c0]Distant ([/COLOR]3.5[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]                1,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]       7        [COLOR=#0070c0]0.002[/COLOR]        0.020        0.020                        [COLOR=#0070c0]Distant ([/COLOR]4[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]                5,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]       8        [COLOR=#0070c0]0.003[/COLOR]        0.030        0.030                     [COLOR=#0070c0]Distant ([/COLOR]4.5[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]             10,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]       9        [COLOR=#0070c0]0.005[/COLOR]        0.050        0.050                        [COLOR=#0070c0]Distant ([/COLOR]5[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]             20,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]      10       [COLOR=#0070c0]0.006[/COLOR]        0.060        0.060            [COLOR=#0070c0]Very Distant ([/COLOR]5.5[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]             30,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]      11       [COLOR=#0070c0]0.007[/COLOR]        0.070        0.070               [COLOR=#0070c0]Very Distant ([/COLOR]8[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]             50,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]      12       [COLOR=#0070c0]0.008[/COLOR]        0.080        0.080             [COLOR=#0070c0]Very Distant ([/COLOR]18[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]           100,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]      13       [COLOR=#0070c0]0.009[/COLOR]        0.090        0.090             [COLOR=#0070c0]Very Distant ([/COLOR]21[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]           125,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]      14       [COLOR=#0070c0]0.010[/COLOR]        0.100        0.100             [COLOR=#0070c0]Very Distant ([/COLOR]31[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]           150,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]      15       [COLOR=#0070c0]0.012[/COLOR]        0.120        0.120             [COLOR=#0070c0]Very Distant ([/COLOR]40[COLOR=#0070c0])[/COLOR]           250,000[/FONT]
[COLOR=#0070c0][FONT=Calibri]      16       0.015        0.150        0.150                   Regional (60)           450,000[/FONT][/COLOR]
[FONT=Courier New]

This is my first cut on a direct fire control table to add to the design table errata.

It is drawn from the table presented in Striker. Entries in black are taken direct from page 12 of the design sequence tables. Entries in blue are my additions.

Power is added because advanced systems need power, and 10% of the volume seemed like a good rough start.

Maximum engagement range is an idea that may not be necessary given the direct fire difficulty profiles on page 72 of the player’s manual. I added it using the Extreme Range figure from the Striker table because the distant range band extends out to 5 kilometers and I don’t want a TL 5 system to be able to engage all the way to the full extent of the range band no matter how difficult. Please let me know if anyone agrees or disagrees.

Finally, I added a TL 16 line just because the table on page 72 goes to TL 16.

 

[Major B]

Direct Fire Control Table, 2nd draft

This is the second draft of a proposed direct fire control table to add to the design table errata.

Changes from the first draft are marked in red and explained below:

[/FONT]
[B][FONT=Calibri]                       [COLOR=#c00000]Amended[/COLOR] Direct Fire Control Table [COLOR=#c00000](2nd draft)[/COLOR][/FONT][/B]
[B][FONT=Calibri] [/FONT][/B]
[B][FONT=Calibri]                      [U]TL        Power     Volume      Weight            Price[/U][/FONT][/B]
[FONT=Calibri]                       5              -            0.005          0.005                500[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       6              -            0.010          0.010            1,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       7        [COLOR=#c00000]0.0015[/COLOR]       0.020          0.020            5,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       8        [COLOR=#c00000]0.0012[/COLOR]       0.030          0.030          10,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       9        [COLOR=#c00000]0.0010[/COLOR]       [COLOR=#c00000]0.040[/COLOR]          [COLOR=#c00000]0.040[/COLOR]          20,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      10       [COLOR=#c00000]0.0008[/COLOR]       [COLOR=#c00000]0.050[/COLOR]          [COLOR=#c00000]0.050[/COLOR]          30,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      11       [COLOR=#c00000]0.0006[/COLOR]       [COLOR=#c00000]0.060[/COLOR]          [COLOR=#c00000]0.060[/COLOR]          50,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      12       [COLOR=#c00000]0.0004[/COLOR]       [COLOR=#c00000]0.070[/COLOR]          [COLOR=#c00000]0.070[/COLOR]        100,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      13       [COLOR=#c00000]0.0003[/COLOR]       [COLOR=#c00000]0.080[/COLOR]          [COLOR=#c00000]0.080[/COLOR]        125,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      14       [COLOR=#c00000]0.0002[/COLOR]       [COLOR=#c00000]0.090[/COLOR]          [COLOR=#c00000]0.090[/COLOR]        150,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      15       [COLOR=#c00000]0.0001[/COLOR]       [COLOR=#c00000]0.100[/COLOR]          [COLOR=#c00000]0.100[/COLOR]        [COLOR=#c00000]200,000[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      16       [COLOR=#c00000]0.0001[/COLOR]       [COLOR=#c00000]0.120[/COLOR]          [COLOR=#c00000]0.120[/COLOR]        [COLOR=#c00000]225,000[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]

Removed the maximum engagement range because the direct fire difficulty profiles on page 72 of the player’s manual are restrictive enough without adding unnecessary complication.

Revised volume and weight downward. In Striker, point defense fire control is ten times the weight (and volume) as direct fire control. The changed values shown above are 1/10th of the values for a point defense system at the same TL according to the point defense fire control table in the MT RM, page 79.

Revised cost downward for TL 15 and TL 16 to 1/10th of the cost for a point defense system at the same TL according to the published point defense fire control table (MT RM, page 79).

The new power requirements are similarly derived from the published point defense fire control table (MT RM, page 79). Power required for TL 9 through TL 16 systems are 1/10th of the cost for a point defense system at the same TL. Power required for TL 7 and TL 8 systems are extrapolated. I kept TL 5 and TL 6 systems as requiring no power as I think these systems would be purely optical so require no power.

 

[Major B]

Draft Errata Entry

This is the first draft of an errata entry to fix the fire control omission - anyone have comments before I repost it in the errata sub-forum?

-------------------------
Page 79, Step 32, Point Defense Targeting (correction and addition): Although the combat rules in the Player’s Manual (most notably pages 68 and 72) mention fire control systems for vehicle-mounted and crew-served weapons, they were omitted from the design tables in the Referee’s Manual (other than point defense fire control which was misnamed as targeting - rather than fire control - modules). Replace step 32 with the following to correct this omission:

32 Fire Control
Fire control allows vehicle-mounted and crew-served weapons to engage targets in direct fire, indirect fire, or point defense modes. Hardpoint mounted weapons automatically have all necessary fire control installed.
Direct fire control modules allow a weapon to be used to directly fire at targets in line of sight, using a flat or nearly flat trajectory. For each weapon to be employed in direct fire mode, install one direct fire control module. If the weapon will also be used in point defense fire mode, install only a point defense fire control module - no direct fire control module is necessary. If the weapon will also be used in indirect fire mode, both direct fire and indirect fire control modules are required.

[/FONT]
[B][FONT=Calibri]                                  DIRECT FIRE CONTROL MODULES[/FONT][/B]
[B][U][FONT=Calibri]                      TL        Power     Volume      Weight            Price[/FONT][/U][/B]
[FONT=Calibri]                       5              -            0.005          0.005                500[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       6              -            0.010          0.010            1,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       7        0.0015       0.020          0.020            5,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       8        0.0012       0.030          0.030          10,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       9        0.0010       0.040          0.040          20,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      10       0.0008       0.050          0.050          30,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      11       0.0006       0.060          0.060          50,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      12       0.0004       0.070          0.070        100,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      13       0.0003       0.080          0.080        125,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      14       0.0002       0.090          0.090        150,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      15       0.0001       0.100          0.100        200,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      16       0.0001       0.120          0.120        225,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]

Point defense fire control modules allow a weapon to be used to engage incoming missiles and projectiles. For each direct fire weapon which must also serve in a point defense capacity, install one point defense fire control module.

[/FONT]
[B][FONT=Calibri]                             POINT DEFENSE FIRE CONTROL MODULES[/FONT][/B]
[B][U][FONT=Calibri]                      TL        Power     Volume      Weight                Price[/FONT][/U][/B]
[FONT=Calibri]                       9          0.010         0.40            0.40             200,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      10         0.008         0.50            0.50             300,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      11         0.006         0.60            0.60             500,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      12         0.004         0.70            0.70          1,000,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      13         0.003         0.80            0.80          1,250,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      14         0.002         0.90            0.90          1,500,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      15         0.001         1.00            1.00          2,000,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      16         0.001         1.20            1.20          2,250,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]

Indirect fire control modules allow a weapon to be used indirectly at targets beyond line of sight, usually in situations where an observer calls for and adjusts the fire onto the intended target. For each weapon to be employed in indirect fire mode, install one indirect fire control module.

[/FONT]
[B][FONT=Calibri]                                INDIRECT FIRE CONTROL MODULES[/FONT][/B]
[B][U][FONT=Calibri]                      TL        Power     Volume      Weight            Price[/FONT][/U][/B]
[FONT=Calibri]                       5              -            0.050          0.050            6,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       6              -            0.075          0.075            8,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       7        0.0020       0.100          0.100          10,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       8        0.0010       0.200          0.200          20,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                       9        0.0008       0.300          0.300          30,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      10       0.0006       0.500          0.500          50,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      11       0.0004       0.600          0.600          60,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      12       0.0003       0.700          0.700          70,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      13       0.0002       0.800          0.800          80,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      14       0.0002       0.900          0.900          90,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      15       0.0001       1.000          1.000        100,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                      16       0.0001       1.100          1.100        110,000[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]                For mortar fire control modules, multiply all values by .25[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I think you've done great work here, Major B. But another way of looking at this question, is to say that Mega Traveller has abstracted fire control as a subset of general Control Panel tables. All vehicular components require control points including weapons - so effectively you've got systems in place already that connect the operator to the weapon. The effect of higher and higher tech level abilities (e.g. the thermal imaging you cited) is taken into more and more effective difficulty levels in the Fire Control Difficulties in the "personal" combat tables in the Players' Manual.

But I do think that point defence is a gap in the rules, however. But so are tac missiles which make point defence highly desirable (and yes, I'll support any effort to get tac missiles into the game!).

 

[Major B]

... But another way of looking at this question, is to say that Mega Traveller has abstracted fire control as a subset of general Control Panel tables. All vehicular components require control points including weapons - so effectively you've got systems in place already that connect the operator to the weapon.

I see your point but respectfully disagree. I see the control panels as the interface and the fire control as the gear that translates the commands given through the control panels and add-ons to the weapon.

The effect of higher and higher tech level abilities (e.g. the thermal imaging you cited) is taken into more and more effective difficulty levels in the Fire Control Difficulties in the "personal" combat tables in the Players' Manual.

And this is the main reason I disagree. The fire control difficulties progress by TL while control panels do not. I think the fire control rules in Striker were intended to add variance and flexibility in the designs. An idea to illustrate this (I think from Striker): Point defense fire control allows the weapon to be fired in direct fire too, but it is expensive - a cost-saving technique would be to buy the highest available TL of direct fire control as well as a lower TL model of point defense fire control.

I don't know if I explained that very well. It appears to me when reading the rules that fire control systems were intended to be part of the port from Striker to MT but for some reason the tables never made it while the effect rules did.

But I do think that point defence is a gap in the rules, however. But so are tac missiles which make point defence highly desirable (and yes, I'll support any effort to get tac missiles into the game!).

And we're in full agreement here. In fact, if you're interested PM me with your email address and I'll send you something to review.

 

[Major B]

Missiles - COACC Review

Looking over COACC to review how missiles were implemented in that rule set and I have a couple of questions for anyone who has used that book more than I have.

First, in the notes modifying task rolls with various missiles I see reference to Infrared Counter Measures (flares I presume) and chaff dispensers. But I can't find them listed on any of the tables so don't know their weight/volume/cost.

I checked the errata (v 2.18) and didn't see them mentioned there either. Am I just missing them? If not, has anyone figured a house rule for them?

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Have you checked Stricker for them?

They may have been missed out.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[HG_B]

But I can't find them listed on any of the tables so don't know their weight/volume/cost.[/FONT]

I checked the errata (v 2.18) and didn't see them mentioned there either. Am I just missing them? If not, has anyone figured a house rule for them?

Real world data:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/ntsp/ale-47-p_v2_2002.pdf

AN/ALE-47 components are as follows:
EQUIPMENT LENGTH WIDTH HEIGHT WEIGHT
Programmer 5.75 in. 3.75 in. 6.14 in. 4.50 lbs.
CDU 6.80 in. 5.75 in. 3.75 in. 5.00 lbs.
DCDU 4.22 in. 5.675 in. 3.00 in. 2.30 lbs.
Sequencer 6.53 in. 6.57 in. 2.89 in. 3.75 lbs.
Digital Sequencer Switch 6.00 in. 4.00 in. 1.80 in. 1.50 lbs.
Dispenser (D-56 or D-63) 9.83 in. 10.13 in. 6.68 in. 4.00 lbs.
Magazine (MX-11599) 6.36 in. 9.30 in. 7.77 in. 6.00 lbs.
Safety Switch 4.61 in. 3.64 in. 2.55 in. 2.00 lbs.

 

[Major B]

Have you checked Stricker for them?

I'll be checking for them tonight. Thanks ED.

Real world data:

And now I have a website to check tonight too. Thanks for the link and the data HG!

 

[Major B]

I didn't find anything on the subject in Striker so I converted the dimensional and weight data for the AN/ALE-47 described at the link provided by HG_B:

Rough conversion is .044 kl and .011 mT.

I don't know the cost or what power it requires but this is a good start.

There is another document on the same site describing the types of countermeasures this system carries. They boil down to three major types:

flares (to counter IR homing missiles)

chaff (to give deceptive radar signatures and counter active radar homing missiles)

active countermeasures (radar emitters to counter semi-active radar homing missiles)

I could not find a capacity figure for the AN/ALE-47 but the AN/ALE-39 (which the -47 replaced) could carry 60 decoys of the above types but only two could be mixed (30 of one plus 30 of another or all the same). It appears that the -47 uses similar if not identical magazines so the same capacity should apply.

I'm going to assume that the -47 is a TL8 model to get started and look up the dimensions of the -39 to see if the dimensions differ. If so that will be the TL7 model.

Next step will be some guesswork to chart improvements at TL9+ and see what new types of decoys might come into play.

 

[Major B]

Update: I was able to dig up more on the AN/ALE-39 but it is not appreciably different (in measurements) from the -47.

I'm thinking now that simpler will be better, so please review this draft errata entry and provide comments if you have any:

In the Sensors and Electronics section

# Electromagnetic Countermeasures
To protect against tac missiles using guidance systems dependent on electromagnetic emissions, a decoy dispenser may be installed. These dispensers carry up to sixty decoys each. The dispenser can carry up to two types of any of the following decoys: Infrared (flares) TL7, Radar (chaff) TL7, Active Radar TL8, Active Microwave TL9, Active Neutrino TL10.

Decoy Dispenser: TL7. 0.04 kl. 0.02 tons. 0.001 Mw. Cr1,000.

Comments: The volume is derived from calculations on the -47 system (rounded down). The weight is derived from the same but rounded up making it consistent with similar devices already in the RM. Power is derived from the actual power required by the -39 but also rounded up making it consistent with the power required for a smoke discharger. Price is kind of a swag - slightly less expensive than a sandcaster (at Cr1,250).

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Looks good.

Regards,

Ewan