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Traveller Cargo Standards

Straybow

SOC-14 1K
The Last Step, Long Delayed

We've had lengthy threads discussing stateroom sizes, life support costs, passenger rates, freight rates, and almost every matter of instellar trade and traffic (eg: Price-Fixed Travel, Far Trader cargo/Freight manifest questions). Almost, that is, except the mass vs volume problem.

LBB2 was obviously not written with the difference between displacement and mass taken into account at any point. In later supplements a standard measure was introduced at 14m³ per ton of hull, with the reasoning that 14m³ is the volume of a ton of liquid H2. That way fuel tankage is conserved from LBB2 design specs.

But setting the tonnage as LH2 displacement does mean all other ship features needed to be refigured, something that was never done. Some supplements and later versions of Traveller made a polite nod towards the duality of mass and volume, but still fell short of tackling the whole issue. Engine performance is based on dT hull size, not mass. An empty ship does not gain acceleration or jump advantages over fully loaded specs except by house rules. An overloaded ship isn't even considered because the rules assume that 1 dT cargo space is always the absurdly low 1 ton mass when fully loaded.

It isn't much of a problem when the focus is on adventuring funded by irregular speculative trading. Here we have people who are trying to make economic sense of the Traveller universe and it isn't working. Most standard ship designs are dreadfully unprofitable. The shipping model and commodities table in LBB2 don't fit the revised volumetric standard. No CT supplement or subsequent T version has introduced new trade values based on volume or new standards based on mass. Revising to account for mass is going to make every standard design profitable, even without per-parsec pricing on generic cargo lots.

Back in the 19th or 18th century the British decided to standardize certain shipping terms, and the ton was set at 100 cubic feet. The standard is still applied today, at least in the USA: the bed of a one ton pickup is roughly 8x6x2 ft; the bed of a "deuce-and-a-half" is about 250 ft³. The typical 53' US highway freight trailer is roughly 3100 ft³ and normally loads 30 tons.

Note that 100 ft³ per ton is intended as an average with allowance for dead space in typical loads. Almost anything can be packed in far more densely. A seaship captain will not endanger his seaworthiness by loading much above the rated total cargo capacity. An overloaded highway freight truck is at risk of tipping or internal load shifting, not to mention regulatory charges or fines.

One can hardly claim that the 14m³ "ton" is a convenient measure for use outside starship design specs. One hundred cubic feet works out to slightly under 3 m³ per ton. A 2.8m³ (0.2 dT) palette is going to be far easier to deal with. Note this would also explain why most shipment lots are multiples of 5 palettes. We can further assume that cargo bays are not simply open spaces of arbitrary dimension, but designed to accomodate standard palettes, braced stacks of 1dT, and standardized containers of some larger size (20/21st cen Earth containers are about 4dT).

With this concession to the consequences of the odd standard used for ship design we introduce access and stabilization overhead as a percentage of cargo space. Access is required for inspections, for damage control, and for situations where only a partial load is to be transfered. Stabilization is required to insure loads do not shift at any time, including emergency maneuvers without inertial compensation.

The less compact the design, the higher the overhead must be. A narrow cylinder might have less than 12.5% overhead, with the penalty that close inspection requires unloading the palettes. A wide open space might require 25% overhead, but allow easy inspection and less finicky loading. Large objects such as ATVs or oddly shaped items such as aircraft would incur additional overhead due to bulkiness not reflected in raw mass and volume figures.

A ship designed to handle containers will have internal gantries for loading, placing and unloading the containers. This is necessary even if the ship transfers cargos in orbit. Mid-sized cargo haulers will have light gantries or booms to handle palettes and the occasional container. Smaller ships may depend on portside longshore service, or acquire powered equipment and operators (necessary for planets with inadequate facilities). All equipment will take up space in the cargo hold, and detailed ship designing will require reasonable figures for mass and volume, load limits, and speed of operation.

With this increase in cargo capacity LBB2 freightage is at least double what the market will bear, and almost any standard design can be profitable at one third the listed freight charge with less than full loads.
 
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An empty ship does not gain acceleration or jump advantages over fully loaded specs except by house rules.
Better check again... The naval Architechts Manual in Brilliant Lances (TNE Canon) DOES provide for refiguring based upon current load.

Also, measures in CuFt are absurd.
Especially since Traveller, and almost all non north american countries on earth are on the metric standard.

14 cumet Dtons works out nicely to 2m x 2m x3.5m per dton, or just a bit larger than a current shipping pallate, but some 11 feet high.
 
The 100 ft³ is only mentioned as a historical reference; I can't find a reference for current metric standard shipping terms.

If you'll notice, the proposition is for a "standard" of 2.8 m³, or 0.2 dton. 14 m³ is over twice the volume of the largest palettized shipping of which I am aware. The military uses large palettes on aircraft equipped with roller-decking, and some civilian ocean cargo also uses large palettes.

In general, palettized goods cannot be stacked. There is no guarantee that items packed on a palette can withstand an overburden. This is another aspect of cargo loading that Traveller glosses over. A smaller unit can allow for shelving or other appropriate means of maximizing use of a ships cargo deck.

Another form of palettized shipping is designed to fit inside standard cargo containers, and hence are significantly smaller. Loads are often bundles of cardboard boxes with height and overburden limits. Again, a smaller standard unit packed into containers or bracing would be appropriate for Traveller.

Civilian air transport uses 2 sizes of containers, one is roughly a standard 1 ton (100 ft³) and another is several times as large. These are designed to exactly fit the cargo decks of passenger planes. They are intended to hold passenger luggage or individually packaged mail parcels.

Civilian air cargo carriers use both the air transport containers on a lower deck and an upper deck for palettes or stackable cargo.
 
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Better check again... The naval Architechts Manual in Brilliant Lances (TNE Canon) DOES provide for refiguring based upon current load.
I don't have TNE but I have seen many ship design templates, deck plans, etc. It is apparent that hulls, engines, power plants, and jump drives are still calculated primarily upon dtonnage. Armor and live load are afterthoughts, and not realistic regarding armor IMO.

Has any Traveller version introduced mass and volume based cargo figures or speculative goods tables scaled to the standard that emerged after LBB2? Not that I've seen or heard.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
Also, measures in CuFt are absurd.
Especially since Traveller, and almost all non north american countries on earth are on the metric standard.
Aramis, the greater part of North America (by land area) is on the Metric system as well. (Or System Internationale, which is close to Metric enough that I can't tell the difference if there is one).
 
SI vs Metric: a few minor esoteric differences in seldom-used-by-normal-people unit names and definitions.

standard shipping "containers" are still in Imperial English Units... http://www.maersksealand.com/msl/msl/Gauss/main/equip_dry_containers_kg.jsp

This is the maersk/sealand home site....

Converting to metric/SI: 8x9.5x40 ft (40' High)
2.9052x2.4459x12.2324 ~=86.92m^3
or 6.2086 Td

40'Std: 8x8.5x40 = 2.4459x2.5994x12.234 = 77.7819 m^3 = 5.5558 Td

So the "Standard" CT-Deckplan-shown containers of 4 Td are ACTUALLY SMALLER than current containers, wider, less long, and just a hair taller, at 3x3x6m.

Close enough for me.
 
Oh, and just as an after thought...

a stateroom proper is about the size of a 20' container, in terms of space used for the stateroom and immediate access hallway.... again, based upon CT Era deckplans.
 
Hmmm, the 40' models only allow a few extra tons more than the 20' models. Another factor that is hard to account for in a game. Longer span means much higher bending stresses.

Anyway, the point is that freight should be mass-based, and that a hold of a given dtonnage will load 2-5 times the dt in mass tonnage allowing both more cargo and cheaper rates per jump. Good for ship owner, good for customers, good for the economic model.
 
Cargo shipment in the Real world is based upon both mass AND Volume. the standard shipping containers (20' standard (2.75 Td, or 1 TEU) and 40' standard (5.55 Td or 2TEU) are the "standard and provided they are not overloaded, are a standard of weight AND volume.

Go over volume, they charge more. Go over mass, they charge more.

I've always assumed containerized shipping. The "Shipping ton" always meant for me a "Size 1 Cargo Container" with anything from an empty container to backed full to the top with water.
 
Well, that's the "magic" of the ContraGrav lifter field.

As long as your lifters are working everything inside the field is treated as a simple volume of near zero mass to the rest of the universe outside the field. So a 1G ship can accelerate away from a world at 1G regardless of the worlds actual density and local gravity or the fact that the ship has 100dT of empty cargo hold or 100dT of lead shielding as freight.

The problem only arises in the rules systems that aimed for more realism by calculating the mass of components and cargo separately and then had to figure actual thrust of drives to know what kind of acceleration could be achieved for different loads. Nothing wrong with that method if that's the kind of stuff that makes your game fun. I've played both and they can both be fun.
 
I'm not so much concerned with the drive system (in this thread) as with the cargo capacity itself, pricing, and the ability to make a profit.

A few things seem reasonably priced. Vacc Suits at CR400k/dTon comes to 40@10k, or a little more than 3/m³. A rigid helmet and some sort of air tank/recycler, plus a lightweight flexible suit and packing materials could be about that size. I would think 25kg each is on the hefty side, so the total mass would be a little less than 1 ton.

Likewise computer parts as marketed today are shipped and sold in packages far larger than the actual component (say, a memory SIMM). Perhaps 150k worth in 14 m³ is reasonable. I imagine the mass could be about 1 ton.

14m³ dTon is about 500 ft³, ~400 bushels, so American wheat would be $1200-1600 per dTon or CR400-533. That's close enough to the list CR300. A dTon of grain would be at least 11 metric tons. Note that American dry farming productivity (bu/ac) has increased by a factor of 10 over the last 100 years, and is currently about 4 times the world average. This is perhaps a reasonable approximation for Traveller productivity costs, even if methods are different.

I suppose somebody's idea of liquor might go for 10k/dTon. If packaging left a net content about 5 m³ that comes to CR2000/ton, or CR2/liter. That's what I pay for supermarket-quality wine, but only a planet with zero agriculture would bother to import it.

A dTon of meat might be as cheap as CR1500—if we're talking about industrial vat-grown tissue. But why would anyone ship a commodity of that sort, which could be grown anywhere with equivalent tech? It would certainly be more economical for the buyer to obtain the equipment.

Beef or pork off the hoof at American prices would translate to CR10k per dton minimum (about 12 metric tons in packaged cuts) wholesale. Premium qualities would be double the price or more. Quarters, sides etc are cheaper and less densely packed to some degree.

Again, certain aspects of American meat agriculture are probably about as good as it will get. A century ago raising 1 lb prepared broiler chicken required 6 lb feed, now only 1¼ lb. Cattle take longer to mature and can't match that lifecycle productivity, however the reduction in grain required to fatten for slaughter is almost as impressive.

Billet metals are a different analysis. Obviously 14 m³ of any metal will be massive, but given the availability of asteroids in most systems raw metals would be far cheaper than prices based on 21st century planetary mining.

Somehow I don't see steel going for CR5/ton (14 m³ coming in at over 100 tons), or Aluminum for CR26/ton (38 tons/dTon). The listed prices would make more sense if they express price per ton mass. That would put Silver at a sensible CR2/troy oz. Radioactives at 1MCR/ton mass (mostly lead shielding) seems fairly reasonable as well.
 
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Straybow, I think you are going astray on the process for shipping.

ALMOST NO SHIPPING is by mass alone nor volume alone. Most shipping tends to be containerizxed, and the mass of the container is only paid for if it exceeds a certain ammount (considerably less than the container max sustainable weight), and then there is an upper limit to maxium weight.

A Standard Container has a rated weight; if you ship containers of steel (I've seen it done...) they will be mostly empty.

If you ship containers of feathers, they'll be compressed to maximize load... and even then the container is the shipped unit, not the mass.

Now, while not later ruleset includes MASS per ton for cargos, all the GDW adventures seem to imply containerized shipping (hence not being able to use the cargo on a scoutship commercially, etc).

TNE (in BL) provides a guide that most ships should be designed around the assumed mass of 10-15 tons metric per ton displacement.

Reasonably, most cargo containers should be loaded to about the same range OR LESS.

Bk2 is narrativist, not simulationist.... so since displacement is implied (and later acknowedged by the designer as the intended mode), displacement is the basis...

That shipping-Dton of steel is probably about 14Tm, and consists of about 2 cumets of steel (sg~7)

ores will probably be more volume per shipping dton... many rock matrices range SG3-5

Unwary captains can overload... In CT there is no rule for it, but a GM I played under had one: If mass exceeded 14 Tm per Td, count each extra 14Tm as an additional ton of ship's displacement, reducing thhusly the ship's speed.

MT implies a gravitic field based accelleration system, which is counterdicted by the MT-Only-Canon of SSOM and T-Plates. If they are field efffect, then I see no problem with overloading. IMMTTU, however, 10Tm/1Td for cargo is the "Load Line"
TNE gives a rated thrust, and thrust decline s with mass. It can be assumed the default listed in BL is in fact the load line per Td...

T4 uses the same design sequences (up to the rating point) so can use the same assumptions as TNE.

T20: volume based, again. Just like CT.


So, assuming a 10 Tm load line per Td, that's Cr 100/TM for aluminum, Cr 200 per ton for copper. Cr 50 per ton for steel. Cr 3000/ton for guns and ammunition. A better match to the cost of goods. Still, not perfect, but life never is.

As for AFV's and ATV's, i always assumed that that was a dismantled vehicle shipping...
 
Where did I say it had to be mass or volume alone? Didn't I just say that some things make sense in dTons and some things don't?

To assume pallet/container shipping you have to establish mass limits for a standard 1dT pallet or container, and perhaps 5dT containers for those anonymous 5dT-multiple lots. For deckplans you are going to need exterior dimensions for containers.

:confused: I'm trying to figure out what kind of guns you are buying for CR3000/ton. Supersoakers? ;)
 
Originally posted by Straybow:


<snip>

:confused: I'm trying to figure out what kind of guns you are buying for CR3000/ton. Supersoakers? ;)
:D Good one (not to detract from the serious bit). Super Soakers are my preferred weapon for fighting Evil Witches and small children, and if loaded properly Vampires and other undead, oops, wrong multiverse, we now return you to your regular game...

I recall something once about using the cr/ton to figure out how many of a named item were being shipped. Have to look for the source. Basically you come up with a reasonable amount based on the named items retail value (not the price the PC's are paying for the bulk load as adjusted by the actual value table) and fill in the rest with valueless filler (crates, styro-popcorn, and such). The retail value of individual items being generally higher than bulk purchase you can sometimes get a bargain.
 
Typical 4kg rifle ships in 2-3kg of padding, and a wooden crate massing 5 kg. At least the few I've gotten to see shipped from low end manufacturers.

Now, some assumptions:
Retailer takes a 30% markup.
Wholesaler takes a 50% markeup.
That KCr3 becomes KCr8 street value, or more...

Yeah, I know, its still low... call it shipping regs...

Yeah, guns are probably on weight alone. Probably limited that way....

Or the guns are being priced at maufactury cost... not wholesale nor even retail...
 
Don't forget, that values are some hand-wave average. Low purchase costs can be interpreted as dealing with manufacturer, or for really low rolls "distressed goods" (original owner bankrupt, or property seized by the port authorities for some reason, etc).

High sale prices indicate an end purchaser (perhaps a desperate one), while lower sale prices mean the only people you can find to take your goods are wholesalers who expect to make a profit selling it to the retailers around the planet.

That leaves less room to justify all those lowball base values on the spec trade table.
 
Really, I would love to go through the MT equipment tables and generate "Average value/DT" with a load line of 10Tm/Td... but *I* don't have the time...

(New baby, spring break is over, so its back to work, etc)

Basically, go through and make a "Corrected Trade Goods Table" with the same entries as CT, but with corrected costs, and "Loading percentage" (what % of StdDT is filled to hit Load Line.
 
I found the bit I was remembering, in CT of course, and oddly enough the example used is Firearms (aka Guns, maybe that's why my memory twigged). I guess Straybows Cr3,000/ton was a simple typo (should be Cr30,000/ton). For those who don't have access to CT (from Book 2, Trade and Commerce):

When determining the contents of a cargo, the players and referee must be certain to correlate the established price of goods with the cost per ton. For example, the base price of a shotgun is Cr150, while a ton of firearms as trade goods has a base price of Cr30,000. A strict weight extension of the shotgun (3.75 kg per shotgun) would indicate 266 shotguns. Extension should be instead based on price, with weight as a limiting factor. Thus one ton of shotguns would contain 200 guns, at Cr150 each. The extra weight can be considered packing and crates. Similar calculations should be made to keep prices in line on other trade goods.

Some goods (those results 51 - 56, and 66 on the table) are sold individually instead of by the ton. Quantity is expressed in single units; tonnage and base prices must be determined by the players or referee in accordance with established prices and equipment.
note: 51 - 56, and 66 on the table are vehicles and vacc suits

I found this interesting and illuminating. Trade goods clearly ship by weight not volume. So too does freight, at Cr1,000 per ton of weight. It then follows that (originally at least) much or all the ship descriptions of tons must be weight and not volume. The notable exception seeming to be hull volume, specifically called mass displacement and noted as being (roughly) 14 cubic meters per ton.

So it seems in CT at least, contrary to my memory ;) we were always talking (metric) tons (1,000 kg) and any displacement of volume by that weight was a little arbitrary (use roughly 14 cubic meters per ton, calling a ton 1.5m x 3.0m x 3.0m, plus or minus up to 20%
) Suddenly many more of those old deckplans become less problematic for me and my old "1/2 deckplan guidelines" make even more sense.

This gives me another mtu/ytu idea, in relation to the "Making a Jump 2 freighter profitable" thread.

What if, since we're talking weight we allowed the drives to haul one ton of cargo per rated ton of cargo hold per drive rating? A ship with maneuver drives rated 1G would be able to carry 1 ton (weight) of cargo per rated ton of cargo hold volume. A 2G maneuver drive would allow 2 tons (weight) of cargo per rated ton of cargo hold volume.

The same limits would also apply to the Jump drive so a ship rated J1 could only Jump with 1 ton (weight) of cargo per rated ton of hold volume, even if it could carry 2 tons (weight) of cargo per rated ton of hold volume due to a 2G maneuver drive. And vice versa a ship with a 1G maneuver drive and a J2 drive could jump with denser cargo than it could lift on its thrusters, all you have to do is get it there, maybe by shuttle.

So to make ships with bigger drives pay you need to look for denser cargos to make the most of your bigger drives and the players and referee will have to figure out said densities.

For example a ton (weight) of shotguns, being 200 units at 3.75 kg each (and 250kg packing) might rate only half a ton of hold volume.

So drives rated 1 could only carry one lot of shotguns (1 ton weight) per rated ton of hold volume. It would take up half a ton in the hold volume and another half a ton of hold volume would have to stay empty or the ship won't go.

If however the ship had drives rated 2 then it could carry two lots of shotguns (2 tons weight) per rated ton of hold volume. The two lots would take up one ton of hold volume.

In the first case the ship would charge Cr1,000 for shipping it as freight while in the second case the ship gets to charge Cr2,000 for the same hold volume (but at twice the weight its still the standard rate of Cr1,000 per ton weight). Et voila! The Far-Trader makes money without hacking the economics of per jump rates, by returning to the roots of Traveller economics as weight based. At least for cargo. And passenger rates are now closer to the freight rates.

Have I just fixed a major break by invoking and without breaking canon? ;)

Does that make some sense and track or have I slipped a cog?
 
I guess Straybows Cr3,000/ton was a simple typo (should be Cr30,000/ton). For those who don't have access to CT (from Book 2, Trade and Commerce)
No, since MT or TNE says a dT is 10-15 tons, that would make a ton mass of guns only Cr3k, which makes the problem worse.

Yes, that paragraph is the canonical example. 1 ton mass per ton "mass displacement" doesn't fit the dTon standard except for fuel, and doesn't fit pricing for some cargos as I showed in some examples. It also makes no allowance for extreme values on the trade purchase/sale rolls, positing the retail price as the given base value.

Yes, the 14 m³ dTon only permitting 1 ton mass is screwy. That's why mass based measures of ship tonnage such as bouyant displacement for surface vessels are roughly 5 times higher than Traveller tonnage ratings.

Yes, 2 tons mass per dTon was the suggestion I made for undiminished jump (or maneuver) performance, in lieu of a more detailed break-down of cargo mass and load limits. 2 tons cargo plus some allowance for structure is still short of the average mass per dTon for Traveller ships, but it keeps interstellar trade from being too easy.
 
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Canonical (although not CT/MT) sources figure on 10Mg to 15Mg (Megagrams, aka Tons Metric) per ton displacement (which BTW, is about what most of my MT designs work out to...)
 
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