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ThingMaker Hits and Armor

Spartan159

SOC-13
Knight
Please, I could use some help with this so I can wrap my head around how this is supposed to work.

What I have: A 1dt vehicle that was made with T20 rules. ThingMaker volume: 13,500 liters, density: ? Construction: Internal Mechanism, 0.8?, Armor is hollow? SuperDense

What I want: How many hit points does it have, and what are it's protections?

Answers preferably in demonstration format so I can follow along with what is being calculated, so I can learn how to do this.

Regards,

Spartan159
 
Is there a good reason you're not using VehicleMaker?

You can use the tables in VehicleMaker to interprolate the armor figures and protection types you need.
 
Besides the fact that I hate vehiclemaker with a passion? Perhaps because my gearheadedness has problems with the vague rules? Interpolating how? Somehow I don't expect to see an FF&S for T5.

Besides, I am trying to import stuff from previous versions, and from what I can tell I can handwave all the equipment but for weapons (Which can be designed), Armor and Hits.

IF someone wants to tackle instructions on how to use VehicleMaker by all means I'll read it, because I want to try and use everything in T5, but Oh My God it makes my head hurt sometimes.
 
For what it's worth, here is what I'm trying to update:

Worker Bee (Yes, name and rough design right out of Star Trek)
Code:
Component			Volume		Power		Cost		Note
Chassis				(25,200)	-		25,200
Container			[22,400]	-		-		Grappled Cargo Container, up to 8dt
Cabin				2,800		-		-		1dt control cab
Controls			-560		-		2,800		1 crew
High Tech Fusion power plant	-15		+30		9,900		225 liters fuel/month
Grav Drive Train		-61		-15.12		695,520		1512 Thrust (60kph)
Pressurized Cabin		-140		-0.7		3,500
Climate Control			-28		-0.28		1,400
Utility arms (2)		-64		-12.8		12,800		Str 64 (80,640kg max load) Dex 2
Windows	 *3			0		0		4,800		Atmosphere 12 Rated
2 way Radio 			-2		-0.08		300		500km Range
Headlights (2)			-12		-0.6		300		90m range Beam
Area Lights (2)			-8		-0.4		200		30m range Area
Hydrogen Fuel			-540		-		-		1 year operation (2,700 liters)
Armor				-1260		-		14,340		6,300 liters SuperDense
Cabin Space			-110		-		-				
				0		+0.02		771,060

Better yet would be a 0.5 dt design. In the above design the armor is WAY more than needed so I was visualizing it as "roll bars/bumper guards" on the exterior of the vehicle for the inevitable bumping into containers.

The worker bee is rated from Vacuum to Type 12 atmosphere (albeit limited duration in the latter)

For T5 some of that armor could go to a grapple to connect to the cargo container, much like how modern containers are moved.
 
Given that you have to maintain air-tightness against a vacuum, and your operator's compartment is not apt to be a sphere, you are going to have to have some reasonable plating to maintain internal pressure. You do not give what sort of external pressure you are withstanding, though.

The cabin volume of 2.8 cubic meters equates to about 100 cubic feet. I apologize that I still think in terms of cubic feet, and not cubic meters. One hundred cubic feet is about a box of 5 feet by 5 feet by 4 feet, or roughly the interior of a sedan-size car. That would hold 4 humans in reasonable comfort. Is this what you want?

Is the vehicle supposed to be small-arms proof? If so, then you are looking at at least 12.7mm or 0.5 inches of hard steel armor or its equivalent, and even that will not stop a .50 caliber round at 100 meter in the Real World. I gave Marc some data on weapon effects, but I have not looked to see if any of that went into T5.10.

I still have no idea why armor occupies volume, but I guess that is a given quirk in the rules that complaining about does no good. I keep thinking that is a case of mixing mass with volume, which is part of the confusion with the Traveller Displacement Ton, which measures volume but not mass.
 
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Given that you have to maintain air-tightness against a vacuum, and your operator's compartment is not apt to be a sphere, you are going to have to have some reasonable plating to maintain internal pressure. You do not give what sort of external pressure you are withstanding, though.

Given that the basic design (of which this version is the very high end) is meant to be ubiquitous throughout the Imperium, it should be able to withstand most Dense atmospheres

The cabin volume of 2.8 cubic meters equates to about 100 cubic feet. I apologize that I still think in terms of cubic feet, and not cubic meters. One hundred cubic feet is about a box of 5 feet by 5 feet by 4 feet, or roughly the interior of a sedan-size car. That would hold 4 humans in reasonable comfort. Is this what you want?

Not really, which is why I want to knock down the size. I only recently came to the understanding that most Traveller vehicles are way too huge. What I want is room for the driver to at least have plenty of room and at most maybe be able to turn the seat 180 to face the container being connected to/hauled

Is the vehicle supposed to be small-arms proof? If so, then you are looking at at least 12.7mm or 0,5 inches of hard steel armor or its equivalent, and even that will not stop a .50 caliber round at 100 meter in the Real World. I gave Marc some data on weapon effects, but I have not looked to see if any of that went into T5.10.

Nope, just armored enough to withstand atmospheric pressure/corrosive effects of high end atmosphere types.

I still have no idea why armor occupies volume, but I guess that is a given quirk in the rules that complaining about does no good. I keep thinking that is a case of mixing mass with volume, which is part of the confusion with the Traveller Displacement Ton, which measures volume but not mass.

Because there is a large portion of people out there that believe a mythical balance of game forces and demanded that armor take up far more volume than is sensible. As you say there is no point in arguing, and I fully agree with your assessment of mass/volume.
 
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I still have no idea why armor occupies volume, but I guess that is a given quirk in the rules that complaining about does no good. I keep thinking that is a case of mixing mass with volume, which is part of the confusion with the Traveller Displacement Ton, which measures volume but not mass.

At one time I read that it is not just armor but additional internal bracing which does take volume. However, I could well be conflating something else, and that sounds more like a handwave to me, but it could help with the explanation.
 
At one time I read that it is not just armor but additional internal bracing which does take volume. However, I could well be conflating something else, and that sounds more like a handwave to me, but it could help with the explanation.

You really do not have any additional bracing for vehicle armor if it is either welded or cast armor. If you have riveted armor, then you do have the metal framework that the rivets are placed in, which is essentially nil as it becomes part of the armor framework. On a large warship, you will have additional frames located behind the armor, but as there are ship frames there already to support the hull, it does not mean additional volume taken up. The frame spacing might be two feet instead of four, but you are not loosing any usable volume.

Basically, it is mixing mass and volume. Armor has a lot of mass but not that much volume for the mass. The armor on the battleship HMS Inflexible of the Victorian Era was composed of 2 thicknesses of 12 inch wrought iron plate with 8.5 inches of teak backing each plate and all of the riveted to two 1 inch thicknesses of wrought iron plate. Wrought iron plate weighed about 40 pounds per square foot of one inch plate. The total weight of wrought iron per square foot of armor on the Inflexible was 40 pounds times 26 inches or 1040 pounds of wrought iron per square foot along with 17 inches of teak at about 100 pounds for a square foot. Without counting the wrought iron girders reinforcing the teak and part of the backing, you are looking at 1140 pounds of armor per SQUARE FOOT of surface at the water line. That 43 inch thickness of armor has never been exceeded by any ship before or since, and represents about one-tenth of a cubic meter of armor per square foot of surface. I apologize for mixing measurement values, but it makes the math a bit easier. The one-tenth cubic meter per square feet of surface means that 135 square feet of surface would equate to one Traveller dTon of volume. That one Traveller dton of volume would have a mass of armor on the Inflexible of 135 times 1140 pounds or 153,900 pounds, or 69.795 meter tons. How much volume would that take up under the Traveller 5 Vehicle Maker sustem?

The total weight of armor on the HMS Inflexible of the 1870s was s 3,155 tons, which would have been long tons of 2240 pounds, heavier than the 2205 pounds equivalent to a metric ton. so 3205 metric tons of armor. Again, what would be the volume of that under the Traveller 5 Vehicle Maker system? Based on the comments by Admiral King in his report on European warships, all that armor did not significantly take up that much additional framing volume over what the ship required for adequate framing.

I will be including a cross-sectional image of an M-4 Sherman tank in my upcoming image book, and I would invite all those saying that armor requires additional framing to carefully examine the cross-section and tell me where the added framing is. I might even put in a cross-section of the framing of the Inflexible for the same reason.

An to further add to the fun, on modern submarines, the framing is external to the interior hull, and takes up no interior volume. The US submarines in World War 2 traded a reduction in lead ballast for a thicker pressure hull with no change in framing. The thicker pressure hull of alloy steel doubled the safe diving depth for the submarines over the previously used mild steel.
 
I still have no idea why armor occupies volume, but I guess that is a given quirk in the rules that complaining about does no good. I keep thinking that is a case of mixing mass with volume, which is part of the confusion with the Traveller Displacement Ton, which measures volume but not mass.
57th century starships are not 19th century wet ships.

Century-old warships had only narrow belts of armour, since they knew where attacks were coming from (the sea surface, and generally from the side).

Starships move and rotate freely in three dimensions and must have armour all over.

Take a small ship, 200 Dt, e.g. in a boxy configuration of 6 m × 12 m × 39 m = 2808 m3. Maximum armour, which would be about 0.5 m according to CT Striker and MT, would reduce interior usable space to 5 m × 11 m × 38 m = 2090 m3, taking up about 25% of the space of the craft. So, armour can reasonably be expected to take up significant space, just as it does on 20th century tanks.

It would of course be extremely heavy, but since we don't expect the spacecraft to float on water that is a secondary problem.

Accelerating the spacecraft would be a problem, but Traveller generally gloss over that, except TNE & T4 of course.
 
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