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Thermal masking

Carlobrand

SOC-14 1K
Marquis
An issue of late is the detection of ships.

Traveller ships produce and consume ferocious amounts of energy - to the point where whatever radiators the things are using might well be glowing in the visible light spectrum. Mighty hard to hide something that bright, but there are ways - shield the emitter so it only appears from certain angles, for example. However, that doesn't mean the rest of the ship isn't putting out infrared ...

... or does it?

I will freely admit my limited knowledge of infrared detection. I know bits and pieces, this scope can do that, aerogel does this, and so forth. Putting it all together is a good bit beyond the talents of a career bureaucrat whose favorite hobbies trend more toward sociology, history and astronomy.

So, question on the floor is this:

A ship must radiate. Of that there is absolutely no doubt - the alternative is to roast crew and passengers alike, and rather quickly when one factors in the power plant radiation. The black globe offers a possible short-term solution, but of course that energy needs to be stored (though there is a certain elegant and somewhat physics-defying efficiency in radiating that energy only to have it collected by the globe and channeled back into your power grid).

However, barring a BG, do physics and materials sciences foresee the possibility of a ship radiating selectively? Can one side be insulated to the point that it can not be detected? Can emitters be placed to radiate in wavelengths that create interference patterns to confuse and clutter the IR signature? Can the insulating properties of a hull be rapidly modified in a way that changes the amount and wavelength of energy emitted, and would this have the effect of confusing sensors as to the real range of the ship? Could an infrared beam of appropriate wavelength and intensity fired at a ship by, say, a countermeasures canister effectively blind the ship's infrared sensors and act as an active IR jammer? Could a cloud of an IR-absorbing gas mask a ship for the brief while the cloud persisted?

Inquiring minds want to know.:D
 
Deflecting is the way to aviod thermal imaging. The ship is always going to be above absolute zero no matter what you do.

A true "Cloaking' Device would be the only way to avoid detection.

IMTU I reduce the EM and Thermal signature by using a MEG (Multi-energy Gathering) System and an optical cloaking device. The MEG system absorbs all sorts of energy just like a solar panel but much more advanced. The ship takes on a "black" aruora which appears to absorb all light around it. The Optical Cloak blends it into the background.

I would state my argument about space being much like sub warfare but that has been shot down due to the Thermal signature....
 
No, it is just real science, astronomers state that they think 95% of the matter and energy of the universe is composed of dark energy and matter.
 
There is no evidence for the existance of dark matter or dark energy - it is a theory and nothing more.

When the existance of either is proven I'll change my mind, until then one word - ether.

Traveller already has enough magic technology without making up yet more and moving even further into the realms of science fantasy.

If you want to explain away the waste heat problem just hand wave something connected to grav plates and have done with it.
 
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There is evidence for the theory, something is bending light, for example.

If you want to use only 20th century science in sort of a 'diesel punk' setting, that is cool.

I'm not, not that I can say everything is figured out, though people have probably advanced in 3000 years, seems a fairly basic assumption.
 
Like I said - ether.

Astronomers and physicists just over a hundred years or so ago believed in it implicitely, it explained lots.

It was totally wrong.

I have no doubt at all that 3000 years from now we will know stuff we haven't a clue about now, but I think dark energy and dark matter are a dead end mathematical trick.

There will be an explanation for observations, but chances are it wil take a major paradigm shift in physics to find it.

Until then I would be very reluctant to include yet another bit of pseudoscientific handwavium into Traveller.

We haven't a clue how Traveller gravitics, acceleration compensators, jump drives, nuclear dampers, "meson" screens and "meson" guns work.

Use one of those magic technologies to explain away waste heat management and there is no neeed to add dark energy or dark matter.

Artificial gravity, acceleration compensation and the maneuver drive are the lowest high tech divergence from real world physics - so I would imagine waste heat is somehow transformed into the energy needed for the artificial gravity and the acceleration compensators. No idea how though...
 
The 'it's just a theory argument' is also the argument used against the theory of evolution, so I don't accept that as a valid argument. If one wishes to put forth a counter theory to explain why, that is fine, however, let me be the first to say: I don't know everything; I am humble enough to look to other sciences and at least try to understand them without dismissing them completely. As far as magic tech goes, magic generally presupposes a intervention from the divine, not lack of knowledge. In as far as Clarke's 3rd law, I definitely know if you took a Honda Civic back 3000 years ago, they would view it as magic, even though to us it is relatively mundane tech. So it goes.
 
Understand that you can only absorb or create so much energy before you reach your technology's storage or output capacity. Waste heat is always going to be a problem. Therefore, any form of device that masks your ship's presence can only work for so long.
 
I would say the first means is that they recycle much of the waste heat rather than just dump it by radiation into space. I would assume that in several thousand years they've come up with something better than a basic carnot cycle heat engine as a means of producing power.
 
The 'it's just a theory argument' is also the argument used against the theory of evolution, so I don't accept that as a valid argument. If one wishes to put forth a counter theory to explain why, that is fine, however, let me be the first to say: I don't know everything; I am humble enough to look to other sciences and at least try to understand them without dismissing them completely. As far as magic tech goes, magic generally presupposes a intervention from the divine, not lack of knowledge. In as far as Clarke's 3rd law, I definitely know if you took a Honda Civic back 3000 years ago, they would view it as magic, even though to us it is relatively mundane tech. So it goes.

The theory of evolution has tons of evidence to support evolutionary development of animal and plant species. Anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant pedant :-(

The problem with dark energy and dark matter is there is not one jot of experimental evidence to support it - it is a mathematical construct that explains observations but has no empirical support.

Now they are designing experiments that may be able to shed some light (see what I did there) but until data is analysed and compared it os no more real than string theory, membrane theory etc.

There have been times in the past where mathematical equations have been used to revolutionise physics - maxwell's equations, einstein's theory of special and general relativity - but they were all able to be confirmed by experiment.

Dark energy and dark matter have no experimental confirmation as yet.

There are quite a few physicists who are starting to question certain "facts" - the big bang and the possibility of a unified field theory to name a couple.
 
The theory of evolution has tons of evidence to support evolutionary development of animal and plant species. Anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant pedant :-(

The problem with dark energy and dark matter is there is not one jot of experimental evidence to support it - it is a mathematical construct that explains observations but has no empirical support.

Now they are designing experiments that may be able to shed some light (see what I did there) but until data is analysed and compared it os no more real than string theory, membrane theory etc.

There have been times in the past where mathematical equations have been used to revolutionise physics - maxwell's equations, einstein's theory of special and general relativity - but they were all able to be confirmed by experiment.

Dark energy and dark matter have no experimental confirmation as yet.

There are quite a few physicists who are starting to question certain "facts" - the big bang and the possibility of a unified field theory to name a couple.

Much of the higher physics are called soft for the reason they lack empiricism, I understand that. However, I also know that when concepts such as i were introduced in various math classes I have taken, that some people just could not get it. Why some people can't understand theoretical math and science, I don't know. I have read about dark energy and dark matter, it is strange, sure there might be another solution, the main one seems to be that gravitational acceleration is not constant, which might explain the rapid expansion of the universe noted by the red shift of other galaxies. However it doesn't explain invisible mass exerting gravitational force. Thus ipso facto, if there is some sort of stealth mass, or a stealth way in nature, then there is a high probability to emulate it (which can also be applied to gravitics if gravitional acceleration is not constant). Much of science; physical mechanics and chemistry in particular, emulate or manipulate natural occurances.

Now for a Traveller conundrum: "Is the powerplant doing physical work?"
 
Lol - I like what you did there :)

By the way I have no objection to including dark matter and dark energy as sci-fi developments - the TSR game Alternity used them and I really liked that game.

My "objection" is that Traveller is too full of magic tech as it is.

IMTU I'm still trying to explain the truth behind meson technology - I'm tempted by invoking quark/gluon manipulation, but that may be needed to explain nuclear dampers.

What we have as major TL breakthroughs in Traveller are:

TL7 the magic manoeuvre drive (my opinion - retcon it to TL8 in HG)
TL8 nul-grav modules and fusion (yes kids, even 2012 is still TL7)
TL9 jump drive
TL11 meson guns
TL12 meson screens and nuclear dampers
TL15 black globes

If we start adding magic heat sink technology it would have to kick in early - TL7/8 and require another pseudoscience hand wave.

Dark energy/dark matter could be the breakthrough that allows the construction of manoeuvre drives etc...

I think you may have talked me into it :)
 
Great! Now if I can only convince myself. ;)

I look at the tech levels as paradigm shifts as well, we concur there.

Something like (but this is someone looking back from TL15, not forward):

0-3 Pre-Industrial
4-8ish Industrial
9ish-11 Post-Industrial
12-16ish Post-Scarcity/Current TL
17+ the next level...

The actual table is flawed conceptually in that what someone created as a business/trade code, others have tried to interpet literally. That is my rationale.

The discorvery of dark matter/energy could be today, but it could take hundreds of years to fully understand.
 
Here is how I see tech levels in MTU:

None
Primitive 1-2 stone thru iron age
Cultural 3-4 development of trade and cultural development
Pre-industrial 5-6 artisians control technology/ begining of steam power.
Industrial 7-8 mass product/atomic/computers/early space flight
Interplanetary 9-10 probe to outer system/manned presence inspace/colonization of other innersystem world
Pre-stellar 11-12 Gravitronic/early FTL/probes to distance world/early colonization nearby stars
Stellar 13-14 Interstellar community/improved FTL
Advanced 15-17
Extreme 18+
 
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