"that OTHER Traveller game"??

[Malenfant]

Um, do we really have to be quite so disdainful toward GT in the label of this group? I strongly suspect that a minority of people are actively hateful of GURPS Traveller - for most people it's probably just as valid as any other version.

 

[mike wightman]

I've found a lot of GT material to be useful background for fleshing out Traveller. OK, there are some problems with "is this canon", but I like it so I use it.

 

[Elliot]

Cant stand it myself - hate the smart ass sidebar comments. So there.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by thrash:
Hunter is being very gracious to stump for his competitors, and is therefore entitled to poke fun about it.

Maybe he is being very gracious, but I think that's being somewhat deflected by the implied sneeriness of the label here - it's just not necessary IMO, there's enough divisiveness among Traveller fans as it is!

'A board for discussing GURPS Traveller' would have been perfectly adequate and much more neutral, wouldn't it?

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thrash:
Hunter is being very gracious to stump for his competitors, and is therefore entitled to poke fun about it.

Maybe he is being very gracious, but I think that's being somewhat deflected by the implied sneeriness of the label here - it's just not necessary IMO, there's enough divisiveness among Traveller fans as it is!

'A board for discussing GURPS Traveller' would have been perfectly adequate and much more neutral, wouldn't it? </font>[/QUOTE]Sure but it wouldn't have been as much fun for me.

Hunter

 

[Malenfant]

I don't recall it being there before, but the 'winky' smiley in the label there now does make it a lot better.

Sorry if I was coming across as 'grumpy', I just didn't want to see it turn into an 'us vs them' thing (well, any more than it already is )

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by hunter:
Sure but it wouldn't have been as much fun for me.

Hunter

And if the Penguin-lover Mr. Berry is around somewhere, it'll get him warmed up, and that's always good for some short term entertainment

GT has a wonderful place in my collection as the game system I will never play which provides a lot of wonderful source material from which I will liberally plunder!

T20, OTOH, I may one day play. Though my first and foremost appreciation will remain MT for the forseeable future...

Anyway, the GT guys are okay. And Hunter is okay. And even FFE is okay... we're all okay, really. It's them non-gaming folks that one has to watch out for....

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I don't recall it being there before, but the 'winky' smiley in the label there now does make it a lot better.

Sorry if I was coming across as 'grumpy', I just didn't want to see it turn into an 'us vs them' thing (well, any more than it already is )

It wasn't. I added it after you said something so that it would be clear I was just having fun

Hunter

 

[kafka47]

Well, it is not to admire how GT is slowly rewriting cannon, like an virus inscribes DNA. Virus, is a harsh word, I admit, but I cannot find a better analogy.

Some of the stuff actually broke new ground but then GT quickly reverted into just repeating the CT line.

There is just a wish here on the boards that GT would actually say something different about the Traveller universe. And, yet keeping it consistant with what is the Traveller canon. An impossible task? I don't think so, as they would need only do the things that GT did very well.

More supplements like Kamsii or Bounty Hunters would be appreciated, as these were underexplored areas in CT.

Posing some of the real big questions in GT, like what happened to Dulinor? Is the Imperium ommipotent or impotent?

What is the relationship between GT & MT as there seems to be many parallel occurences?

Are the Solomani a real Party-State or just a misunderstood democracy?

What ultimately is the end point of GT?

If GT does on average better sales than the other GURPS line, why not produce more?

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Kafka47:
There is just a wish here on the boards that GT would actually say something different about the Traveller universe.

In fairness, other than LEW's Wounded Colossus, I think GT's no-Rebellion timeline was a big contribution.

More supplements like Kamsii or Bounty Hunters would be appreciated, as these were underexplored areas in CT.

Hunters were done in White Dwarf, but they should have been officially done as they are really good gaming material. They justify fights, travelling, and neat adventures with bits of chicanery, run ins with the law (Shades of 76 Criminals Who Need Your Help) and nabbing bad guys.

But you are right, both of those are good GURPS supplements.

Posing some of the real big questions in GT, like what happened to Dulinor? Is the Imperium ommipotent or impotent?

Didn't Dulinor get blown up? And I dunno about you, but when I look at Ground Forces and the like, I tend to think of a very potent, very present Imperial gov't.

What is the relationship between GT & MT as there seems to be many parallel occurences?

How about "The Rebellion, she never happened?". That would explain a lot of parallels, up to the big divergence. (If I'm not misrecalling)

Are the Solomani a real Party-State or just a misunderstood democracy?

Rim of Fire gives a lot of commentary of interest on this front.

What ultimately is the end point of GT?

Why?

I ask this question about real Trav too.

Isn't the point the journey? The endpoint implies a point at which all is somehow static or resolved, leaving little room for adventurers. So why do we seek endpoints?

If GT does on average better sales than the other GURPS line, why not produce more?

Does it?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Kafka47:
What ultimately is the end point of GT?

Why do you ask? You may as well ask what the end point of Classic Traveller was. It's just trundling on, being Traveller

.

Though there is a hint of something going on in the TNS announcements. My impression from the hints dropped there is that something is brewing in the Solomani Rim - some kind of coup or civil war in the Confederation is on the way, perhaps. But that's just a guess.

If GT does on average better sales than the other GURPS line, why not produce more?

They've got their Trav license extended and are busy preparing Interstellar Wars, plus we've had Humaniti, Starships and soon we'll have Sword Worlds and Nobles, so they are churning stuff out again. I'd say they must be pretty secure in their sales to be doing that.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Kafka47,

What variant, author, publisher, GM, and/or players haven't intentionally or inadvertently changed Traveller canon? How have you changed canon in YTU? Do you have parts of CT, MT, TNE, T4, and T20 included in YTU? From the post my guess is G:T probably isn't a part of YTU.

CT to MT changed canon by shattering the 3I into a perpetual civil war. MT to TNE changed canon with the intoduction of Virus. T4 changed canon by the inattention to detail of the publishing game company and by starting with the rise of the 3I. G:T diverged from MT timeline without a rebillion.

In fact G:T and T20 are not listed as part of Traveller canon. I may be out of date, but according to the CT reprints, Books 1 to 7, by FFE MT, TNE, and T4 are not listed as canon either.

I think that SJGs is doing all right with getting out new supplements, though some of the older stuff, with the exception of BtC without a major overhaul, should be scheduled for reprinting.

Tom Rux

Originally posted by Kafka47:
Well, it is not to admire how GT is slowly rewriting cannon, like an virus inscribes DNA. Virus, is a harsh word, I admit, but I cannot find a better analogy.

Some of the stuff actually broke new ground but then GT quickly reverted into just repeating the CT line.

There is just a wish here on the boards that GT would actually say something different about the Traveller universe. And, yet keeping it consistant with what is the Traveller canon. An impossible task? I don't think so, as they would need only do the things that GT did very well.

More supplements like Kamsii or Bounty Hunters would be appreciated, as these were underexplored areas in CT.

Posing some of the real big questions in GT, like what happened to Dulinor? Is the Imperium ommipotent or impotent?

What is the relationship between GT & MT as there seems to be many parallel occurences?

Are the Solomani a real Party-State or just a misunderstood democracy?

What ultimately is the end point of GT?

If GT does on average better sales than the other GURPS line, why not produce more?

 

[Horatius]

Because it would make too much sense?

Because SJG is actually part of a conspiracy to <section Deleted>.

Because having Steve Jackson print more TRaveller stuff would make all of us happy. And thats why they won't do it.

(D**n. I'm getting cynical again.)

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
[QB]CT to MT changed canon by shattering the 3I into a perpetual civil war. MT to TNE changed canon with the intoduction of Virus. T4 changed canon by the inattention to detail of the publishing game company and by starting with the rise of the 3I. G:T diverged from MT timeline without a rebillion.

I dunno if it was intentional, but it's interesting that you view MT and TNE at least as being things that 'changed canon' rather than being things that defined canon. I just see them as logical extentions of eachother - the nice stable empire of CT was shattered by a civil war in MT and brought down by Virus in TNE - the whole thing is Traveller canon to me, not just one part of it.

In fact G:T and T20 are not listed as part of Traveller canon. I may be out of date, but according to the CT reprints, Books 1 to 7, by FFE MT, TNE, and T4 are not listed as canon either.

I put that down to the fact that MT, TNE, and T4 weren't written when the CT canon list was compiled and it hasn't been updated to include them. But we do know from elsewhere that MWM considers the MT/TNE timeline to be canon.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
In fact G:T and T20 are not listed as part of Traveller canon. I may be out of date, but according to the CT reprints, Books 1 to 7, by FFE MT, TNE, and T4 are not listed as canon either.

Not to be a jerk, but, wrong.

The list of 'canon' given in the various Reprints is a list of 'Classic Traveller' canon. It is not an exhaustive list of all Traveller canon.

Just to add to this, in the MT discussion groups, while discussing the possibility of an MT CD-ROM, MWM has explicitly defined the list of 'MegaTraveller' canon.

MWM has already said that all Traveller stuff published by GDW is, by definition, canon. That includes CT, MT, and TNE. So the Rebellion is canon. The Virus is canon. I have not seen any such declaration about T4, but since it all explicitly carried his name, I would be a bit surprised if it cannot be considered canon.

T20 has also been 'endorsed' as canon. They are writing canon now as we speak. Gateway will be canon when it is finished. The Traveller history in T20 is part of the OTU and canon.

GT, after 1116, is explicitly outside canon. Prior to 1116, GT and the OTU are considered to be identical (with a couple very microscopic issues), so match canon.

And, just to finish this idea, 1248 will be part of the OTU, and therefore canon, when it is finished, too.

 

[mike wightman]

Good point, daryen. Here's another question.
When discussing canon do we mean setting, rules or both?
GT, the setting, is outside Traveller canon. What about the rules and non-setting related background? If jump masking has been canonised then what else? The organisation of Imperial troops (and skills) from Ground Forces? The Far Trader trade and commerce system, complete with LASH merchants...

The way I have always looked at canon is this- ignore it- use what you like.
Traveller canon has two seperate issues, rules systems and the setting.
CT managed to provide contradictory canon in its various versions both from a rules point of view and by changing the setting details.
MT's setting was a consistant advancement from the CT universe, but various rules were redefined, e.g. jump fuel.
TNE's setting also follows along consistantly. But the rules? It's easier to point out the rules similarities to CT/MT than highlight the differences in technology and rules mechanics.
Finally we come to T4. The setting pre-dates the original and still manages to contradict with technology definitions that are bastardized versions of TNE and MT.
So how do we play a game using Traveller canon?
Play OT with CT rules and 1st edition setting or move into the large ship, huge Imperium paradigm? MT rules for the MT setting and TNE for TNE? Do we try to use T4 rules (the latest official version) and adjust technology to the setting or say that T4 over-rules all? Or do we pick the best bits for our own games?
As a final note, Paranoia press, FASA and Judges Guild all produced approved material for Traveller, so don't be surprised if, in the fullness of time, T20 and its setting details go the same way

Sorry if this comes over as a bit of a rant.
Cheers.
Mike

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning daryen,

Thanks for the information and can you point me to the link or links that identify the Traveller canon for all variants. I did check FFE's site, but did not find any mention of canon. You are not being a jerk as far as I am concerned. Your comments were correcting and updating my knowledge of Traveller related information, which I greatly appreciate.

Some or all of the material produced by Judges Guild has been dropped from canon. I can't remember which now defunct licensee, DGP or Imperium, could be a different one, is still holding onto some Traveller property, which places the material in limbo of being neither canon or non-canon.

daryen could you please provide me with a link showing that "GT, after 1116, is explicitly outside canon." G:T is also endorsed by MWM and has the added benefit of having one of GDW's original Traveller Staff, Loren Wiseman, looking over SJGs Traveller line.

There are many Traveller fans that consider anything after CT as alternate timelines. Don McKinney has created two timelines for Traveller. The first timeline included MT and TNE material which he has dropped in his newest version.

Again, thank-you for your reply and additional information on Traveller canon.

Tom Rux

Originally posted by daryen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
In fact G:T and T20 are not listed as part of Traveller canon. I may be out of date, but according to the CT reprints, Books 1 to 7, by FFE MT, TNE, and T4 are not listed as canon either.

Not to be a jerk, but, wrong.

The list of 'canon' given in the various Reprints is a list of 'Classic Traveller' canon. It is not an exhaustive list of all Traveller canon.

Just to add to this, in the MT discussion groups, while discussing the possibility of an MT CD-ROM, MWM has explicitly defined the list of 'MegaTraveller' canon.

MWM has already said that all Traveller stuff published by GDW is, by definition, canon. That includes CT, MT, and TNE. So the Rebellion is canon. The Virus is canon. I have not seen any such declaration about T4, but since it all explicitly carried his name, I would be a bit surprised if it cannot be considered canon.

T20 has also been 'endorsed' as canon. They are writing canon now as we speak. Gateway will be canon when it is finished. The Traveller history in T20 is part of the OTU and canon.

GT, after 1116, is explicitly outside canon. Prior to 1116, GT and the OTU are considered to be identical (with a couple very microscopic issues), so match canon.

And, just to finish this idea, 1248 will be part of the OTU, and therefore canon, when it is finished, too. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Good point, daryen. Here's another question.
When discussing canon do we mean setting, rules or both?
GT, the setting, is outside Traveller canon. What about the rules and non-setting related background? If jump masking has been canonised then what else? The organisation of Imperial troops (and skills) from Ground Forces? The Far Trader trade and commerce system, complete with LASH merchants...

The way I see it, canon is the setting, not the rules. To me, the exact mechanisms of how X works would be irrelevant to canon arguments, but if X was replaced by Y that did something completely different, then that'd be cause for an argument

.

 

[kaladorn]

Well, Tom, here's the rub:

MT and GT timelines don't mix. So, it is sort of hard for them both to be canonical, I'd think.

JG stuff has been de-canonized (oh well) and so has the PP stuff (sigh, it was actually good). DGP's stuff is in the special category of 'forbidden canon' - ie, it was canon, but since the rights are now unaccessable, it will be papered over as if it never happened.

But canon is internally inconsistent - Jump Torpedos anyone?

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello kaladorn,

Been a while since we last chatted and thank-you for the information you have posted here. From what I am understanding in this thread in order for something to be considered canon the material cannot cover what has been written before when relating to the background information.

MT and TNE are different from CT, both change the history of the 3I. G:T changes the one event that in CT caused the rebellion and led to fall of the 3I. In fact, MT introduced the use of clones, which wasn't, if I recall correctly, explicit CT canon. Should we consider MT non-conan because it intorduced the use of clones, especially as body doubles for very important persons? Nope, just a bit of data that can be used or ignored.

There is a group in Traveller that ignores the MT/TNE timeline and recognize, to them the more logical, G:T timeline. Further, there are those that don't recognize any timeline before or after CT. Does that make the other products non-canon? Again, my answer is no.

MWM endorses G:T product material just as he does T20 so to me both are canon. Every variant since CT has had an affect on canon, for good or ill. The material that is considered by the majority as to far off is ignored the material that fits is kept. Would MT be considered canon if the G:T timeline came out first? My answer is yes, if that is how I view the Traveller history.

Again I ask: How has each member changed Traveller canon in their TU by adding features from other sources whether or not they are part of that canon? The answer depends on how much the player or GM bends the Traveller canon to get the other sources to fit. G:T, in my view, is just as much a part of Traveller as any other Travller license product since GDW closed their doors.

Tom Rux

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Well, Tom, here's the rub:

MT and GT timelines don't mix. So, it is sort of hard for them both to be canonical, I'd think.

JG stuff has been de-canonized (oh well) and so has the PP stuff (sigh, it was actually good). DGP's stuff is in the special category of 'forbidden canon' - ie, it was canon, but since the rights are now unaccessable, it will be papered over as if it never happened.

But canon is internally inconsistent - Jump Torpedos anyone?